Nicola: [00:00:00] the female leaders on fire podcast. I’m really excited today because I’ve got a pretty brilliant guest today. So I’ve got Jackie Jackson. And we’re going to be talking about when you get the mind monkeys and you get that internal chatter when you’re moving to a new role, a bigger role. So just to introduce Jackie before she, and she says south, so Jackie is known as the mind monkey Tabor, which I completely get, and I absolutely love, so she’s a leadership and mindset.

That really focuses on helping first time senior leaders avoid the Deccan traps. So we probably all have that boss that you just get into a new, a bigger role and they just end up being just doing too much, trying to be everything and just, yeah, not great to work or so she helps avoid that. And make a really successful transition from technical experts, a confident leader, and having that big, chunky promotion, [00:01:00] probably something that you’ve worked at for a long time.

But when you actually get there, you can just lose a bit of that confidence. Um, and you can start to feel a bit vulnerable, a bit lonely, a bit uncertain of yourself because you’ve been that expert for a long time. But you’re leaving in tapping a role where you maybe have a team or leading a division and maybe even moving up to exec board level.

So it can be quite a challenging time to kind of get what you want, but when you get there actually can feel quite scary. So welcome today. Thank

Jacqui: you. It’s lovely. Lovely to be here when you appreciate them. Bikes.

Nicola: You’re welcome. You’re welcome. You are my hitless for a little while. So I’m super excited.

And Jackie, this weekend to Jackie saw she’s running a challenge. My monkey challenges I’m sure is brilliant. And I really didn’t expect to say yeah, so I’m even more excited that you’re here. You must be super organized.

Jacqui: Oh, that’s brilliant to be here. Yeah. I was setting my, my diary was free, which is unusual, but yeah, it just worked out perfectly.

So it’s meant to be. So Jackie, do

Nicola: you just want to start by just introducing yourself in your own [00:02:00] words and just, how did you get to doing this great work that you’re doing, helping people have that successful transition into that confident leader

Jacqui: role?

Yeah, I guess my story kind of probably like many coaches is the stuff that I support people with right now is the stuff that I have kind of experienced and have understood and have empathy for. So I had some chunky promotions when I was in my late twenties and I got promoted to director level. Um, for me that was the most exciting time of my career.

I absolutely loved it. I was busing. And it was only when I look back with hindsight that I realize a massive part of that was because I’m supported with coaching at the time. And that was a time before coaching was really kind of as common as it is now. And so I was really, really fortunate. And what I’ve recognized [00:03:00] since, as I’ve moved on to different roles and roundabout was that it’s actually comparatively unusual.

My experience. So I was promoted to customer services director. I had somebody who joined the business. We were growing very quickly at the time who was HR director, who started her role on the same day as me. And what that did was kind of created a peer support that other people don’t get. I have the coaching that really helped me to kind of settle in and to understand and to consider.

Have that role was different, how I needed to be, how I could influence my boss differently and all those things. So yeah, that, that was relatively early on. And then what I recognized is that so often the story is very different. So people get that chunky promotion, like you say, they’ve worked hard for it, you know, they’re, they’re aspiring to that next level role.

And when they get there, it’s not necessarily all it’s cracked up to be. They feel under massive scrutiny. It can feel lonely and isolating [00:04:00] because they don’t have P peers that they’ve developed relationships with that they can kind of talk this through with, and all too often. People get promoted. And then six months later they’ve put a foot wrong.

They’ve gone from hero to zero that, you know, their reputation is in tatters and it doesn’t need to be that way. It’s such a, such a waste of talent. So yeah, that’s where my, my passion, my drive comes from. And yeah, having trained as a coach a few years ago, The awareness of that, that chatter and the, my monkeys has really come to the fore.

And that’s so often it’s that rather than people’s technical capability that gets in the way of them fulfilling that potential.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I do. I really resonate with that as well. And I think my bigger promotions tended to come when I moved to new countries. And I remember one particular role is moving into was to be, um, senior innovation manager.

So it was moving into, it was in the same industry, but it was a new , [00:05:00] uh, quite an entrepreneurial startup business. And I got that and it was a promise that I was going to have a team. I was going to have resource. I was going to have budget. And then when I actually got there, I was so excited about this job, left a company that I love to go and do.

This was going to be commuting into London. So it was like, you know, quite a change in lifestyle. And I get that. And there was 20% of one person, there was no budget available and had no resource. So suddenly what I thought was going to be my dream job, like geeking out on innovations and new technologies and all the things I loved was just nothing that there’s no part of that that was actually going to be part of my role.

So I think there’s two parts to it. Isn’t it just knowing the role and what you’re going into, but then knowing, knowing yourself and knowing how to adapt your skills. So when, when someone moves into new roles, What should they be looking for? What sort of support can they be looking for to get started?

Jacqui: It’s it’s really interesting that you mentioned about your children’s promotions coming when you’ve gone to a [00:06:00] different company, because I think the answer to that question is different depending upon whether you get promoted internally or whether you get that promotion by moving to another business.

So when you get promoted internally, I think a lot of the ability to really perform in that role comes from taking ownership of your relationship with your new boss and. Understanding the importance of rewriting the rule book and really shifting how you see yourself and how the conversations that you have and how you seek to influence in that new level.

Because very often you may be promoted above peers. You may have people whose noses out of joy that you’ve been promoted and they haven’t, or you’ve got an opportunity that they haven’t got. And that’s not necessarily, even if you’re managing. You know, certainly my experience when I went from a head of level to a director level was that other [00:07:00] people in the business saw me differently.

And those relationships where it had been very easy to have influence, they were then cautious. And I had to really have ownership of how I re re-establish the halls of engagement in those internal relationships. So I think that’s really crucial when people are promoted internally. When you move to a new role and it’s external.

I think one of the traps that are, so there’s several kind of traps within the overall dickhead tracks and all of them is particularly, I think when you, you go external is that there is a real action imperative where you go into a new business and a new role. Um, the, it feels like there’s an urgency to take action.

So

Nicola: all those. Yeah. Yeah,

Jacqui: exactly. And it’s totally natural. And often the business kind of creates that. Somebody that I [00:08:00] was speaking to recently, that started ahead of marketing role was kind of just flummoxed. And the first couple of days with I’ve got all these emails and I’m not sure which I’m supposed to take action on.

And actually when you’re in your first few weeks in a new role, it’s so important to focus on learning and to focus on observing, understanding the culture, understanding the priorities of that business. Understanding. You know, really seeing how do decisions get made in this business? How do things get communicated?

Who are the movers and shakers in this business? Because until you understand that you can be taking action and feeling like you’re doing stuff and you’re contributing. But you don’t, you never get that initial period back. And if you, if you don’t get the mentum or you don’t take the right actions or you step on toes or what have you, it’s very hard to undo it.

So that will be [00:09:00] one of the crucial things I would say when people go to a new company is. That’s period, and really consciously hold yourself back from taking too much action too quickly. So you can work out where that support is going to come from how the relationships can develop and what the priorities really are.

Yeah,

Nicola: absolutely. I really love that. And I think that that first, you never get a second opportunity to make a first impression and also being new to role. You can ask all the obvious questions and the, what you might feel is a stupid question. You’re brand new, so why not ask it? And it might be something that’s just been in the business for a long time and isn’t really something that was working well.

And just to be able to ask those questions and challenge things and how they’re done and for your own understanding.

Jacqui: Yeah. I think often as well, people are, I’ve seen this a number of times where people go to a new company. I think, oh, we did that better in my old place. I’m coming with [00:10:00] ideas. But if they haven’t got a understanding of the context or the culture, or, you know, some of the factors that sit behind, if, if you come in with an idea or an action, rather than that question and curiosity, then that’s when you can put noses out of joint.

And you can assume that the solution that you’ve seen elsewhere is going to work. And sometimes it will, and sometimes it will be mind blowing and you can massively have impact, but it’s got to come from that place of curiosity and understanding if you’re going to be able to influence effectively. Yeah.

I

Nicola: love that. I love that. And that very much leads that relates to me to the, I love the model that Bernie brown has some leadership that daring versus Ahmed and that daring, you know, being open to question, questioning and challenge things and not have to have all the answers versus. I I’m leader, we’re going this way and not to question me on it.

Is that part of what you think people need to be aware of that that impact the [00:11:00] impact of their leadership style and how that is in that particular organization or in that new.

Jacqui: Very much. So one of the questions that I typically in the, in the first session, when I’m working with, um, a new leader is one of the questions I would ask them is what do you want to be remembered for?

So when this job is done, when you’ve moved on, what do you want to be remembered for? Um, when people think and reflect on that question, Nobody wants to be remembered as a bull in a China shop. Nobody wants to be remembered as the person who, you know, charges in. Nobody wants to be remembered as the person who talks over other people in meetings.

You know, people want to have impact. They want to. Um, you know, lead, typically the answers I get to that question are often around, um, you know, improvements, leaving, you know, the team, the business, the function, the division, whatever it may be in a better place, but also it reflects on their character and how they [00:12:00] want to lead and how they want to be seen.

And absolutely there is a real. So the, the distinction I make, which I think is very similar to what you’ve just described is between ego and humility. And it’s very easy if somebody is it’s it’s so it’s so easy to be drawn to ego. If you feel uncertain because you kind of clean to the things that, you know, the things that you can do.

Um, you know, the impact you can have, and it feels very much on your shoulders and humidity is about having the grounded-ness and the awareness of that, you know, as a leader, you can’t do it alone. That’s the whole point you’re leading something, someone, some people. And so when you got to stay grounded in humanity, the impact you can have is hugely magnified.[00:13:00]

I love

Nicola: that. I love that. Yeah. And what about when you are being promoted? When you’re going into that next big role? There’s obviously a huge shift and identity as well, especially if you’re being promoted internally. So what, how can someone support themselves with that shift in

Jacqui: identity? Yeah, so I, this, this is something that I call the identity.

Which is where you have the role and then you kind of look around. So it might be that somebody is in a board meeting for the first time. There’s these moments where you kind of look around and feel like I don’t belong here. What am I doing here? Is this a parallel.

It does, doesn’t it, it just, you kind of like,

Nicola: I’m glad that yeah, this will do. I do. Now. I’ve spent 10 years going here.

Jacqui: I remember way back [00:14:00] when, when I was in my first director role, um, I was in my, most of my career was in retail. And I remember being at an event and having a conversation with the chairman of that face. And this was, I mean, this would have been what, maybe 2007, 2008, something like that. And at the time multichannel wasn’t really, you know, the technology wasn’t quite there.

People talked about it, but it was very disengaged channels. They didn’t interact. And I remember him saying to me at the time, oh, that radio is a multi-channel company. Well, I’ve just felt like a school girl stood there, you know, with the chairman of admiring the business that I was customer services director for.

And I was just kind of like what even is happening here, but I think there’s those moments in all are so common. And what I encourage people to do when this happens is [00:15:00] that they focus often on the. On the things where I don’t feel that I have enough experience or I don’t feel that I know enough, or I don’t feel that I’ve earned my position here.

I don’t feel the equal of the people that I’m along the side. And what I encourage people to do is to start to be really scientific about understanding. Yeah. Okay. What are, rather than this generalized, you know, I don’t feel enough to, to warrant. This is. Like forensically examine. Okay. So where are the situations or circumstances where you do feel good enough?

What are the elements of this role that already come naturally to you? And it might be that, you know, you do a great job of encouraging other people, or it might be that, you know, you can ACE a client meeting, but you feel insecure in a board meeting. It may be that, you know, a pet. [00:16:00] To a massive higher compared to, you know, where you were before that there’s lots of contrasts, but once you start to examine, then what you do is find the things that don’t yet feel quite right.

And you can ask yourself the question. Okay. So, is there a skill or an experience that will enable me to feel okay, or do I just need to wait it out here? Because what can offer it field driven that they’ve got to know more, be more, do more? What have you. And actually what they have to do is just have a little bit of patience.

Yeah. And that set that this is the equivalent of when you’re learning to ride a bike, you have a few wobbles, you know, you’re not going to be perfect at it straight away, and nobody else is expecting you to be perfect at it straight away. What other people are more likely to notice [00:17:00] is that shift over time.

So rather than expect yourself to be confident and feel like this is a hundred percent new for me off identify where the gaps specifically are. And if there are skills or people who can help you, you know, questions that you can ask that will fill those gaps, then that helps to identify what those are.

But sometimes what it does is. You know what? This is just the natural thing when I’m not as experienced yet. As I am going to be in 3, 6, 12, 18 months from now, I might just need to have a bit of.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. I love that because like you said, the not enough feeling and that kind of the, the imposter syndrome kind of feelings that they aren’t going to be there because you’re stepping into something new it’s out of your comfort zone.

And if, if you already feel in your comfort zone in a new promotion, maybe it’s not a big enough role for you. Cause you know, it’s actually those old, perfectly natural [00:18:00] feelings, but I love that. It’s okay. To have the emotions with Kay, to have those feelings, but actually let’s get into acknowledge those and accept those, but let’s get into some practical, let’s apply some logic.

And like you said, get really forensic about where those gaps are. And I love that idea of, is it it’s a skill? Is it an experience that I need or is it. You know, a matter of going to the board meeting more and more. So I get comfortable. So I know the characters, I know the format, is it, you know, the first few, um, I will contribute, but I’m just going to sit back and take it all in and just make my own mental notes on it.

Well, that’s okay. And I think, yeah, patience is a skill that probably many high achieving women struggle with just because it’s, it’s, you know, takes time to get to where they want to be and have the impact they want, but actually it’s, you can, so cop a lot of that experience just by sitting back.

Observing and learning and asking the questions. Yeah. I love that format of the. Allow the emotion to be there that actually get really practical on it. That

Jacqui: combination of the two[00:19:00]

Nicola: if what I took about really resonates with you and you love what I have to say, and you have moments and flashes of inspiration from the podcast. I would invite you to get in touch, to find out how I can help you. So individually, that can be through my coaching focus program for my VIP program, depending on how you like to learn and what will suit you, or I can help you in your organization to really help the women that you work with across the organization at all different levels.

And at that very senior level to really feel empowered and to know that they can reach the very, the most senior levels in that organization and to give them the. In who they are and the clarity and what they want to be able to get there. And we do that through workshops, do that through leadership programs, and we can do that.

Free consulting work. If you are looking for help with any of that, drop me an email nycla@nicholasschoolco.com. The spelling’s not the [00:20:00] easiest. So all the details were in the show notes results I get for clients. Clients have been promoted twice in the six months we’ve worked together. They’d been invited to join the board.

They’ve gone from redundancy to being offered three dreams. They’ve gone from being pushed out of an organization to going into bigger organization and a bigger role with a bigger pay rise and just a quote from a client that I particularly. I’ve gone from the pit of despair. When I started working with Nick to just being really fucking happy and she is an incredibly empowered leader.

Now, if you’re not quite ready for that, you can download my overwhelmed on fire guide the details that are in the show notes, but that really helps you everyday to stay in your fire. So it helps you to clear your head, helps you to come back to what’s important to you, and it helps you to have that most impact and influence every single day.

It’s a little Quip sheet that you can just go through and take. So go and download that. Or you can subscribe to my newsletter, which comes out every Friday, which is a Roundup of the week. Really? So what’s going on in my world. What’s a [00:21:00] blog for that week, a quick video, that’s going to help your particular subject and it’s all about helping female leaders to find their fire.

And also. And any research from the industry as well and things that I’m reading that I really love and recommendations that we’re making. So go and subscribe to that. And finally, for the podcast, if you haven’t done so already, I would love you to go and leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode.

And you’re always going to have the one that. And doing that as well. Not only helps you, but it also means that we’re going to reach more women and we’re going to be able to start that revolution to helping female leaders, to keep that fire, find their fire and keep it. So keep that passion, that purpose side excitement.

So if you haven’t done that already, please go and do that. Thank you.

Obviously, you’re there known as the mind monkey Tamer, which I love. And I love that idea of little cheeky, kind of little like mine monkeys creeping in. So when [00:22:00] someone gets that promotion and it’s internal, external, what are the sort of mind monkeys that can creep in? What specifically are they?

Jacqui: So.

Judgment is, is a really big one. So how people judge themselves is something that they don’t necessarily always recognize as being at the heart of the issue, but often what happens is so those feelings of, you know, am I enough? You know, do I belong here? Is this, you know, am I actually ready for this yet?

That, that kind of insecurity like can then translate into. Judging yourself. And that’s something that is, it’s really helpful to be able to identify and notice when that happens, because without it. What you constantly do is add pressure that you really don’t need, because there will be very real pressures [00:23:00] in senior roles all the time.

And if you add to that without realizing it by judging yourself, routinizing yourself, then you’re creating additional unnecessary pressure. So judgment. It’s huge. And it’s one that can be quite hard to unpack. So the way I describe this is that the judging mind one key is a master or mistress of disguise.

So they often come disguised in other ways or as other things. So for example, it may be that when you go to an event, you feel like, or I don’t, you know, I don’t know how to, so networking is often. Yeah. Something that when people go into senior roles, there is an expectation that they suddenly magically from nowhere have this incredible scale of networking and, you know, going to events and representing the business and bringing new business in and [00:24:00] you know, this kind of thing.

And actually nobody’s ever taught them the skills for them to do that. Yeah. And, and often what can happen is that people will. Kind of go to an event and they will hold back and they’ll, you know, stand on the sidelines and watch things unfold rather than throwing themselves into it. And very often the root of that is that they’ve got fear that if they throw themselves into it, That looked like an arrogant idiot in the corner over there.

Who’s, you know, talking to the world about how amazing they are and that is necess and they don’t want to seem like that. Or that they’ll seem like they’re, you know, that they’ll expose them lack of knowledge. So often holding back can be about that fear of judgment. So it feels like. I’m doing the right thing here.

I’m just [00:25:00] observing, um, you know, it feels very logical of, I’m just going to see what happens here and you know, yet fine. Okay. I’ve done the event. I can go home now. And I, this definitely wispy and my, and, um, you know, those early days as, as a director of kind of, okay, I’m representing the business. There was massive opportunities that I missed to build my network and to build relationships with people outside of the business, because.

I wasn’t aware of this and I didn’t want to be either exposed to what I didn’t know. Seem like overly confident and arrogant. And it felt at the time that I was being logical by holding back, I would have learned so much more like at involved by having conversations, by understanding other people’s perspectives.

You know, when you go to industry events, especially there’s so much you can learn. And if you hold back, you tell yourself the story that that’s a logical thing and that you are just. Watching the room and standing, what have you, or that, you know, you don’t [00:26:00] know how to have a conversation that people that you don’t know, that’s not true.

What’s true. Is that you’re actually scared of the judgment, scared of being scared of seeming like any big goals. So yeah, the, the judgment one is huge when people are, um, you know, when it, it very often that translates to holding back rather than. Speaking out for, for fear of what, what the response might be.

Yeah.

Nicola: Said like one of my favorite crepes was the man, the man in the arena. So, you know, when you’re, it’s that differences that kind of stepping into the reading and being brave enough to, you know, fall on your face and get, get dirty and get muddy in the arena. But you’re still you’re in the room. And that judgment happens anyway.

It’s part of a part of neuroscience, part of our brain. And we’re we’re, you’re judging me now. I’m judging you. It’s like blinking. I don’t it’s subconscious. So if you’re going to be judged, be judged. Yeah. [00:27:00] Going to that networking event and getting from it, what you need and being, being yourself rather than just assuming it’s okay to stand back and just observe for this one.

Cause I’m new. It’s like, wow, actually, how can you set yourself a couple of little goals with it and just, you know, be there and share your new role and share your palms for it and just have some good

Jacqui: conversations and just get stuff. Absolutely. There’s a quote from a client of mine that I love, and it was almost there.

It was almost like the penny dropped and the of voice was incredible because. I don’t have to do it perfectly. Just enthusiastically. Oh, I love that. Yes,

it’s so true. So many things in our lives. So what’s another mind. So overwhelm is a big one. So when you are in a new role and particularly in the early days, Again, different different sources, depending upon kind of [00:28:00] whether it’s internal or external. So if it’s internal often you then need to recruit your replacement.

You’ve still got all of those, that knowledge, and you could be a bottleneck for the knowledge and understanding and the role that you were doing. So you kind of still doing that as well as stepping up. You’ve got then all of these new things that you need to learn and understand that you may be, you know, weren’t party to previously.

So it’s that there’s a real kind of volume of work that feels hugely overwhelmed. Um, when you are in an external, um, situation where you’ve changed business and potentially changed industry as well, and you get that promotion then for that it’s again, that kind of right. Okay. I need to learn about all these different people.

I need to learn about the organizational culture. I need to learn about the business. I need to learn. Yeah. But you know, it goes on and on and on. And I, and I [00:29:00] think. Often particularly. So going back to what we were saying about high achievers, because often the people that get the Trunki promotions are high achievers.

They are very, very driven to do things well quickly. They want to do things right first time and they want to do things right quick. Um, very often what they do when faced with volume is they just plow, plow, plow, and try and get through it. The wall. Yeah. And the antidote to overwhelm is clarity. When you’ve got a million things that all feel important.

The antidote to that feeling is picking the it’s finding in amongst that haystack, the wall. Or two or three, but I never let people, I’m often three famous for that, but it’s most important. Yeah. And I remember sitting with an HR [00:30:00] director and saying to her, right, literally on a post-it put down, what are all the things in your head that you are conscious of right now that are contributing to this feeling of overwhelm from volunteering?

And I can’t remember probably 30, 40, 50 post-it notes later. Um, I said, right. Okay. And now move some of these to the side that can wait. So she started to shift some of them. Right. Okay. And now from these, what can you. Stop immediately. And what has to start immediately? We whittled it down. She had three and she literally was looking at me kind of like, can I really only have three?

Um, we said, right. Okay. Let’s pick some more that actually, you don’t have to do yourself. You can get your team started on and you might need to be involved, but they can, they can take the weight of it or they can get [00:31:00] it started. Yeah. And I remember the conversation a week later of HoCo night. Oh my God.

I’ve made so much progress on these three. And I was like, go figure now you’ve only got three. You can actually see the progress you’re making. So clarity is, is the antidote to the overwhelm, my monkey. And it’s so hard to do for yourself, but push yourself to do it because it really does make a difference.

It really.

Nicola: I love that. And if, if a client comes to me though, well, that’s always the first steps like that mental volume vomit, that brain dump, and then looking at it together and what can go in your will, can go in your calendar for next year, next month, next week, what, like you said, what can your team do to set that, that process of ditch delegate or do, and in all the things that you’re doing, that you really shouldn’t be doing that are outside of your job, that you maybe haven’t set us from a boundary on.

And yeah, just really. You know, you don’t need to carry it all in your head all the time. And that overwhelm doesn’t get [00:32:00] overwhelmed, gets worse with doing more so that plowing through it, like really mechanized I, myself and my girlfriend say, you know, just give me a lot to do. I’ll just get a lot of. You know, it’s on me to kind of go through that and to say, actually, this is too much one person or push back or delegate to my team, or, you know, just say, actually, this isn’t worth it.

Are you wait, we can do this, but this isn’t our responsibility. So I forget that it can go through that process. Brilliant and full most highlighting. Oh, you not saying from the foundries, you’re not saying no enough. And there’s a reset as well. When you move into that new role to actually look at what the team is doing and looking for that area is doing and say, actually, this isn’t.

This should be here or this should be in a different, this is not for, not for our team. So is there a third and final mindset? Monkey?

Jacqui: I mean, there were a whole heap more, but specifically for this situation. Um, the one that I would really pick out is the self versus community. So what happens is the, my monkey basically tells you [00:33:00] to just get on and do what it doesn’t tell you is if you don’t build your network now, You are doing yourself a disservice.

Yeah. And so the mind monkey will tell you the here and now is most important, and it will tell you to focus on vertical relationships on your team and on your box. And that seems logical, and it’s probably worked for you in the past, but when you are in a real leadership role for the first time, especially.

You have to look around and outside, you have to consider how to find community. So, you know, is there somebody that, you know, that’s maybe being, you know, or could you join a community somehow where you can get outsider perspective or a Saturday chapter? So a client of mine runs an amazing group called mum’s in market.

And she has built that from the ground up. And [00:34:00] that is incredible for people just kind of sharing and being honest about how they are feeling. There are all kinds of ways of creating this for me in the early days, it was that relationship I have with the person. Recruited and came in external the same day that I started my internal automation.

So I have that kind of person who knew who I was and who I could be totally myself with. And I could ask the stupid questions and there, I didn’t feel judged and I didn’t judge, but also what people do. I think need to understand is the importance of where can I, aside from, you know, my boss or people within this business, where can I get wise counsel or advice?

And that may be, you know, your parents, friends, it may be people from, you know, the golf club. It may, you know, there will be people out there whose life experience. We’ll enable them to [00:35:00] really add value and those relationships are really worth investing when you’ve gone into a leadership role for the first time, especially.

Yeah, absolutely.

Nicola: I am a program that I’m running at the moment. Part of what we look at is leading me or relationships on as part of that, looking for a fit, you know, people that are supporters and cheerleaders. I’m thinking about what’s what do you want your reputation to look like your leadership brand, if you like, but then also we’ve mentally.

Um, and we had a really good conversation on this a couple of weeks ago, and some of them said, well, there’s no official. There’s no official mentoring program in my area or there’s no, you know, there’s not a way I’m not, I don’t know the way to do that. And it’s like, well, I had, I had great official mentors at the time too.

I had great and official mentors. The unofficial was literally picked someone that I, I love working with or I’m really inspired by, or I love that energy or how they approach things. Just go and ask them. If they have some time to give you some support and then set a [00:36:00] framework for how often do you meet, if that’s what you want to discuss, how, how they can help you.

You don’t, you don’t need permission. You don’t need a framework. You, you can create that. And I, I remember some of my. My most impactful mentioned relationships were literally people that I love, the way that you handled that meeting, where I lived, the way in that huge meeting that you have no, that objection.

And that was just, you know, really considered and really impactful. And then having a conversation saying that I’d really love to learn these things from you. Do you have some time, whether that’s a one-off or ongoing sat in the framework, the relationship, and then just book some time and get, get started.

You don’t need to wait permission to set if that’s what you need and what would be helpful. Set that up and go and do. Not, you don’t need to wait for permission

Jacqui: to do that. Absolutely. And I think that’s quite a female trait waiting for permission. And I, I, um, heard about some really interesting research recently, which is relating to this kind of feeling of, you know, imposter, not feeling good enough, [00:37:00] which is that when women experience that they’re more likely.

To put their head down and go it alone. For fear of being exposed. When men experience set, they’re more likely to work collaboratively so that they get to the solution and get the win. And so the, the way that from a gender perspective, the way that we respond to those feelings, For me, it was just really interesting reflecting on my experiences during my career, because I could see that played out.

Um, and you’re absolutely right. You don’t need to permission. Same as you, you know, my best mentoring relationships where the informal ones. Yeah, exactly. That, whether it was kind of right. Okay. I really see that. I can learn from you. I, and a lot of the. The first time leaders went on coaching. One of the things that’s hard for them is that they haven’t had a relatable role model.

So if you’re in your kind of late twenties, early thirties, You’ve probably not had that [00:38:00] many horses in your career. You haven’t necessarily seen a leadership style that feels quite aligned and authentic to you. So if you see that create the opportunity, don’t wait for it. Don’t wait for the permission to say, yeah, there can be a mentor relationship.

We ate that. Go go out there. Um, and that person will almost certainly be really flattered to be asked because you’re saying I have my use and think about the way you conduct yourself. What’s not to love about that, even if they don’t have time that they’re going to get buzzed about the fact that you’ve approached them.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. And I did have a couple of people say no, just cause it was a really busy time or they had, um, you know, bigger things going on and that that’s okay. But they still. They still then knew me. They knew that I was driven. They knew, and they become a supporter. They become part of that cheerleading squad for you.

So, Jackie, I think we could talk all day about this, but. Just to finish it off. I love those three, my monkeys. I think that’s going to be incredibly useful, but I just [00:39:00] finished off with three questions. So the first question is, can you just share with us a leader that’s inspired you and what, what is it about them?

That’s inspired

Jacqui: you? So for me, the, the answer to that at the moment is, um, Bowden, who was the founder of Starling bank. And I read her story and what really blew me away was this. Just the tenacity and the willingness to, to kind of say, do you know what? I’m comfortable enough in my own skin that if I failed it doesn’t say anything about me or my identity.

I’m going to give it a go. Um, there are days now where my business, where I asked myself, what would I’m voting to do in this situation

to have that mindset of, if there’s someone you admire, yeah. Ask yourself what would they do in this situation? And it, yes, it’s almost like you can second guess it and give yourself the advice and then crack on and do it. So, yeah, for me at the moment, um, as [00:40:00]

Nicola: you’re in a coach choices about what’s my other coach Hollywood, what’s been a book that’s really been transformative for you

Jacqui: that you can recommend.

Oh, you see, I’m, I’m a massive reader. So it’s really hard to narrow this down to one book. So the. Yeah. The one that I’m going to go with is that will never work by not Randolph. So it’s the story of the early days of Netflix, where it was going from. Nothing to getting launched and the stuff that they went through and the experiences and the bravery.

So they initially sold DVDs and rented them and they moved away from that model to purely rental at the point where 97% of their revenue came from. And they did that because they knew that wasn’t a point of difference and somebody else could sweep in and they would be out of [00:41:00] business. And just, that really struck me the bravery of that’s, what we’re going to do, because we know that’s the business model we need to make work.

It was incredible. And it,

Nicola: where they are now, I went to make me to survive lockdown without that. So the question is, what does find your fire mean to you?

Jacqui: So I absolutely love this question for me. The quote that I often use is follow your dreams and not your fears and messes for me. There, there is being true to your fears where you get stuck, where you say in the safe place where you do what’s expected.

Following your dreams means you have to get clear on where do I want to be? Why does it matter to me? What’s important to me. And it’s a big ask of yourself to follow that. It really is. But for me, that’s, that’s where the [00:42:00] fire in the belly has to come in. It’s about, you know, what, come, what may I’m going to follow my dreams.

Oh, I love

Nicola: that. I love that. Absolutely. And where can, where can people find out more information about Jackie and we’ll see, we can put this in the show notes.

Jacqui: Yeah, so I I’m mostly only 10, so you’d be able to find me, um, Jackie Jayco on LinkedIn you’ll spot me because I talk about the different truck in my headline.

And then my website is beyond mine is teaching that UK.

Nicola: Um, thank you so much for today. That’s been absolutely brilliant. I think we’ll get you on at some point as well as Hopkins runs about gender and. Inequality and all those good things as

Jacqui: well. Uh, that you’ll struggle to gaping. If you’ve struggled to keep me quiet today, it was not good to keep the quiet on that month.

Nicola: No, it’d be a pleasure. Thank you, Jackie. Thanks so much. Thank you.