Nicola: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to a today’s podcast, and I’m very excited today. So it’s all part of our move to really focusing more on the market that I’ve been in and also that I’ve really want to support and help and just raise a profile of women. And that’s, um, we’re now renamed the podcast, so women at the top of telecoms and tech.

So I kind of feel like I’ve come home, but in a slightly different way. Cause this was my industry. So I’ve been fortunate enough to interview some brilliant women over the last, uh, few weeks. And this is a lady that I really wanted to interview and see what, uh, see what she had said and what lessons she could share.

Really for women in the industry and that’s Gainer Rich. So I’m so excited that you’re here today, Gainer, and thank you so much for your time. And yeah, I think this is gonna be absolutely brilliant. Thank you for inviting me. So let me introduce Gainer. So Gainer has been working in cybersecurity industry for over 25 years [00:01:00] and really leading in delivering strategic global cyber information security strategy, governance plans and policies across a broad range of industry sectors.

So it’s a trusted ex. Executive level advisor with a lot of different accomplishments and balancing compliance obligations with commerciality and P, all that fine, always that fine line between the two to really support and drive organizational growth and development. She’s perceptive, influential leader with some really acute business acumen and expertise in building, empowering and leading high performance teams to reup support transformational change.

Improved performance and obviously increased profitability. So on top of a demanding role leading cybersecurity net change across BT Gain, you is a STEM ambassador, a mentor, and a key member of the BT Diversity and Inclusion team. And she’s really, really passionate about inclusive recruitment and encouraging girls from all backgrounds into technology careers.

So this all music to my ears going is so [00:02:00] huge. Welcome today. I’m so happy that you’re here. Thank you. Good to be here. . So obviously with that introduction, can you just share a little bit about some of the chapters of what’s brought you to your, uh, where you are in your career now? Because I’ve interviewed a few different women at the top, but for some of them they’re within this quite male dominated industry.

They’re almost. In the male dominated parts of the male dominated industry. So it’s almost like a double, a double impact. So, you know, that brings with its own challenges and uh, you know, own challenges and different environments. But what, can you just talk us through some of the chapters of what’s brought you to where you are now?

Well, it’s interesting cuz when

Gaynor: I, when I left, education security didn’t exist. So it’s not something I could say, Oh, I always wanted to do this. . How I ended up here is quite random really. I mean, I. I left school and went into financial services and I was fortunate enough to go into the sort of stock market area rather than banking, which I think probably helped me.

Yeah. Um, I was [00:03:00] right in the city and it, and it was, you know, very exciting. I was very young, first time out, you know, had all sorts of expectations, what the workplace was gonna be like, but it was, it was completely different, a lot of young people. So that, but that was great and, and sort of brought me into that space, but, It also, I was always very ambitious and I always wanted to be successful.

I grew up in the eighties where we were told we could have it all, We could, you know,

Nicola: we can also in eighties, Charles, so yeah. Get

Gaynor: that . So yeah, very much so. So I was full of all of that, um, when I joined and I, and I, um, I reached out and, and applied for their management development program, which was a, a great benefit I think to me because, It taught me to think about myself differently.

Lots of education. There’s lots of expectation, and I did, I actually did my studies while I was working through doing that, so I. Did my banking exams, which is sort of equivalent now to sort of business and finance degree while I was working. So I was doing that on top. [00:04:00] Uh, but it also taught me to think about myself in terms of my skills and competencies, which is quite new at the time.

Everybody was very functional in their role, apply for job. It was what, what tasks have you fulfilled before? Rather than what, what your capabilities. Yeah. So it really sort of sparked my. My mind and my intellect in a completely different way. And through that I had to sort of Dr. I had to learn to drive my career within the bank.

So I was exposed to lots of, um, different aspects. I went into marketing, I went into investment management. I ultimately went into business consultancy within the bank A and IT development. So that’s where I sort of first touched the sort of technology space. Yeah. Um, and I guess, guess I, looking back, I was, I was always very inquisitive and looking for different opportunities.

I didn’t, I didn’t have the gift of knowing I wanted to be something or have a particular career in path that, so I, I did sort of launch myself into this and sort of see, see where things will go and, and so I have always looked for the different opportunities and, and as I went, as I [00:05:00] did it development, software development.

I really enjoyed that, that sort of aspect of it and, and particularly on the customer side and the user acceptance. How do things work for people at the end as the end customer? Yeah. So that sort of was a little nugget that I, I hadn’t really appreciated until later on and as I went into the business consultancy side of things as the York Bank was changing, as they were always changing in those and probably still off to date.

Yeah, yeah.

Nicola: Absolutely.

Gaynor: One of, one of the many transformation, but again, it was very service orientated in looking. How, how processes worked and it was, I was in the investment side of the bank at the time, but looking at very different aspects of how that investment worked. Cause there was investment banking, they, there was tax management wills and all that sort of, So it was a whole rafter things to do.

but it involved quite a lot of the psychological side of things, again, with the people and how people work and what makes a good team. And, and, and there was some great [00:06:00] insights in, in that space. Cause I had 21 branches around the country that I was responsible for. Yeah. And it became ly obvious that each of the branches took on the personality of the manager running them.

So, Yeah. Yeah. And, and they were all, they were all. Um, , needless to say, but I learned to manage those different personalities and have different approaches to, to dealing with those, to, to get what I want. Sounds very manipulative, but it, it was about how you sort of sell that and identify those sort of things and, and I, I, having sort of had some good successes with that, I thought, well, maybe I can do this somewhere else.

And so I started to look around and thought, Well, I’ve done it and sort of financial service could do another industry, and that’s how I sort of landed at Capita really. , um, which was in the business consultancy, and, you know, that’s exposed to all different industries. And, and so I developed my consultancy skills through that.

And I, I’m still very interested in how organizations function and how [00:07:00] I suddenly discovered this, uh, about myself. I, I, I didn’t consciously think this at the time. I can only say this in reflection looking. But I really was very interested and, and making change and making a difference. And that was really what, what motivated me was actually leaving something in a better state than, than when I first landed there.

But I, I sort of circled into, um, cyber security through, um, PCI DSS as that came on the landscape, having worked in credit cards and, and in the, um, card payment. Area I, I sort of picked up, took it on myself to sort of actually work out how the organization was gonna become compliant with P C I DSS and not realizing how vast that was across the organization.

And that, that gradually evolved into a, a cyber security function, sort of defining standards and, and getting really into that, that type type of activity and, and building that across a very federated organization. Being

Nicola: very federated. [00:08:00] Lots and lots of different personalities to deal with. Yeah. That, uh, how do you work with them?

Yeah, yeah.

Gaynor: And sort of bringing people together and, and dealing with sort of the different, different personalities, but actually to achieve a cohesion across the organization. So having built up that, Capability and, and, and, you know, really got some really strong metrics in place. I, I was then approached by Unilever to, to go and join that organization to help them do the same.

And, and so I, I’ve sort of, and I picked up their, sort of the cultural aspects of cyber security for them from globally. Third party risk management and risk in governance around cyber security. , we all three blank sheets of paper at the time. Yeah. Which was again, quite an interesting space. But yeah, working across, again, a very complex organization and, and really bringing people together to actually deliver change.

So probably less on the technology side, but I have to work with the technologists. And what I’ve [00:09:00] found is throughout my career, I’ve spent a lot of time spanning that gap between the techn. And the business and the executive in terms of translating things into understandable language.

Nicola: What does it actually mean and what’s the impact of, yeah, what does

Gaynor: it actually mean?

How does that, But, but use it, backing that out with sort of hard data and numbers. And I try to try data to make things. Holistic and then I’ve subsequently come to, to bet to help sort of, again, transformation in, in that space, which is an another very federated organization, but an exciting challenge at the same time.

Yeah, absolutely.

Nicola: Absolutely. And I just, I love the fact you, you’ve kind of followed your, uh, when you’ve been inquisitive, when you’ve been interested in something, would you say that. General, would you say your career is combination kind of head and logic, and this is something that I think is gonna grow and become more, plus your heart and like this is just, I’m really curious about it.

I’m really interested in it. What would you, how would you say you kind of, [00:10:00] what you lead with? Do you think it,

Gaynor: it’s really funny looking back in, in, in hindsight cuz it’s, I realize now that I like building things so I like bringing more draft. I am quite organized, but I think I’ve. . Somebody described me once as riding the waves and I think it’s just, I look, I look at things and being inquisitive, something interests me and sparks my interest.

Then I’m inquisitive enough to find out more and, and I like to sort of get under the skin of things. Yeah. And. and I, and I, I, I think I, I think I also like to scare myself, so I, so well, where’s that? That’s sort of different. And then it looks a bit scary and then I sort of just get in there anyway. And so, yeah, I guess it’s part of, part of sort of being inquisitive, scaring myself a little bit, but then have it garnering myself and thinking, Well, I’m gonna gonna have a go anyway.

Um, from the. And yeah, and just sort of riding it. I always say to my kids, I’ve reinvented myself all times. The Madonna, that’s how it feels.

Nicola: Anyway, [00:11:00]

Gaynor: made me the less fancy costumes, but, uh, well, it could be. Yeah, absolutely. But with that

Nicola: kind of like riding the waves and just going into new area, when you said.

I, I like to scare myself a little bit and, you know, when we get past our comfort zone, it’s almost the fear factor. Um, but then when you get into it, it’s never, it’s never as scary as you think it is. It’s just that initial, How do you get past that when you’re like, almost that, that fear of that Oh my gosh.

How does work? What is this? What does it mean? Yeah. Well,

Gaynor: mainly my husband, but it’s very tolerant and cause I, you know, we all have our moments and I think ambiguity is probably the hardest thing. And that’s what change brings is, is, is ambiguity and, and, um, I’ve taught myself to deal with it. I, I really hated it and I, I like everything very structured, but I’ve learned.

That actually, And I think that probably comes with time that you see that all things actually come out with in time you can’t control everything. Yeah. So you sort of, [00:12:00] um, look for the things that you can manage Yeah. And directly in the right way. And, and, and, and trying, trying to stay calm, I think, and not looking at things.

as a failure as such. Cause I think it, it’s, I think everything today is you’ve gotta have a very set path and you’ve gotta be very clear where you are going and you, you know, you follow that path regardless. And you know, even from education right the way through to, you know, getting a job and following a career path.

And, and, and if you don’t achieve what you set out to do, then it’s a failure. And I, I think that’s a really negative way of looking at things. . That’s where innovation gets lost. If we don’t try things and they don’t work out, we don’t, we don’t learn. And so, and I, and again, I try to encourage my kids to say like, You, you know, something hasn’t gone quite to plan.

It’s, you’ve not failed. You’ve learned something. You’ve either learned that that’s. Not right for you or you are not right for it, or you know, that just wasn’t the right thing to do. So there’s always an opportunity that comes out, something like that. And I think I try to [00:13:00] encourage those around me to look at it that way.

Yeah. Cause things, you know, in business things don’t always work out as you absolutely

Nicola: clear plan, this is gonna happen. We’ve

Gaynor: got all the milestones without, you know, there’s always something that’s gonna come left of field and you’ve gotta be able to take. On the chins step back and think about, okay, how do I cross correct now?

Where is it I want to go? Where’s this taking me? Yeah. And sometimes it’s having the um, um, strength to say, I’ve gotta stop that. That’s, that’s gonna stop. And, and in business that can be quite hard because there’s a lot of people you’ve gotta convince sometimes that maybe, you know, there’s a lot of people got a lot of vested interest in something and so something at that point is

Nicola: quite difficult.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I think, you know, the tech and telecoms world as well. You know, by its very nature, very fast moving and you have to be, like you said, almost a strategy and this is the direction. But actually knowing that in that could change at any point. So your priority suddenly is not a priority, and then there’s a new priority that you have to kind [00:14:00] of get back on board with, go through that fear and learning again.

And I really do think that the women that I’m, I’m really fortunate to work with is almost. Getting, like you said, getting used to ambiguity and the resilience around, Well, I’ve just put my heart and soul into this, but actually now I need to dust myself down and the team and get everything back in alignment and kind of go again.

Gaynor: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It is, it is a constant, constant set of sprints really, isn’t it?

Nicola: Yeah. Yeah. So how do you get, keep your team kind of with you on all of that as well? Cause obviously, you know, with responsibility for a large area is gonna be a lot that’s relying on coming for your team and Yeah, I, it, it’s,

Gaynor: I mean a lot of what, what doing is, is change in transformation, but, It’s just sort of, I wanna sort of position my team to, to be a business enabler.

So, you know, very much position ourselves as we’re there to help the business achieve its, its commercial goals, but in a secure way. Not the security please. So sort of cause [00:15:00] that that creates a sort of divide in the organization and to, and to be sort of an integrated part of that and, Really sort of look for ways to say yes to things.

But if, if we have to say no, then actually let’s think about alternatives. Yeah. But from a team perspective, it’s sort of having that, that sort of core ethos that we are there as an enabler, and then that actually sort of giving a clear direction of travel, of, of what we wanna want, what we need to achieve collectively as a team, but in the context of what the organization is trying to achieve so that we don’t.

A single, single siloed objective. Yeah. Cause it can be what, what, We don’t wanna be a security for security’s sake. We’ve gotta be part of that collaborative delivery across the organization and, and to actually reach out and integrate with, with the relevant parts of the organization. So I guess it is for me, very much about connecting those lateral connections as much as the linear ones.

And, and again, comes back to people bringing the right people [00:16:00] together. Uh, to, to work together and deliver that. And there’s always gonna be, Difficult or different personalities, should we say. Yeah. But yeah, but sometimes we have to collectively come back and have a huddle to, to, you know, give a, create a safe space for people to let off steam and, and, and vent some of those frustrations.

But to go back out and, and present that professional face and, and realign, but with that core objective in yeah,

Nicola: in mind. Yeah, and I love that about being an enabler cuz it’s something that, you know, something can happen and come very much from left field. It becomes something that wasn’t an issue becomes like a really key issue that actually there’s some really fast moving parts of this and it’s, it’s, you have a bigger responsibility to the organization to kind of just keep that security in on behalf of customers.

So, you know, it’s, it’s that impactful, how do we enable and support, but also we have a clear directive and a clear remit that we have to take responsibility for.

Gaynor: Absolutely. Yeah.

Nicola: Yeah. So what would you [00:17:00] say are your biggest lessons from, like I said, you’re in this male dominated industry, and then you’re in quite a male dominated part of the industry as well.

What would you say are your lessons to women that may be in a similar situation that don’t see, you know, a huge number of role models and a huge number of people that look like them? There’s that statement of, you know, it’s hard to be what you can’t see, which, you know, carries through on a lot of different kind of inclusion and diversity levels, but specifically around

Gaynor: women, I think the world, the world is very different from when I.

Started off cuz I think senior women were quite, were very scary .

Nicola: I do, I remember some of those micro Yes. Weren’t they? And they

Gaynor: weren’t the approach and, and almost deliberately. So, And I think the world, thankfully is very, very different. So I would say seek out those senior women that you, you can find and don’t be afraid to approach.

People, you know, reach out. Because what I see is, is many more senior women in, in all [00:18:00] organizations are, are very welcoming and supportive of those who are following in their footsteps and very keen to support and sponsors. So have those conversations because it can be intimidating. You feel like, you know, you.

I’m, I’m different. We, you know, men and women do approach things in a slightly different way, and that there it is fantastic that we have the diversity within the workplace and we should embrace that and not see it as, as threatening from, from either side. So yes, seek out, but seek out those senior women because it is important to have.

Being able to talk about things in a common way and, and understand, make their perspectives and, and, and learn from some of their experience and, and networking across the organization is always helpful. There are many more opportunities for mentoring as well. I think we, we really need to support. You know, everyone needs support through mentoring, but certainly women in, in, in male dominated industries need to find those female role models and, and, [00:19:00] and the senior women need to make themselves accessible really, which I, I do see that happen much

Nicola: more.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I’ve talked to a lot of the interviews that I’ve had are women that are, are very in those very senior roles. Obviously your role and a busy demanding role, but then there’s also the role plus. That you have always like a responsibility as a role model to make yourself accessible for mentoring, to be on panels and discussions and be, you know, shared your lived experience to kind of, this is how I’ve done it, this is what I’ve found, this is what’s changed, this is what maybe still needs to change.

So it’s almost the job plus part of what you do and the more that we can support women like you to. You know, have that clarity and confidence and have that impact. It’s like, well actually that’s only gonna, that’s gonna filter down brilliantly to women that are moving on up and have aspirations. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I think it’s, it’s good to have

Gaynor: the conversations. We say like ambiguity makes people feel uncomfortable. People feel awkward in certain situations, and it’s actually understanding that actually everybody feels like that. [00:20:00] Yeah. I think that, you know, we all think it’s just ourselves that feel, you know, nervous in certain situations or feel anxious or feel uncomfortable or worry about certain things.

And actually we’re all, we’re all in the same boat. We just present different faces sometimes. So just being able. Some of those conversations. Yeah. And say, you know, I felt like this in the situation. How do you deal with it? Then you can, you know, that shared experience and and and guidance can be really useful.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s really interesting. We have something like imposter syndrome that’s very much attributed to women and women struggle with it. We almost kind of give that label to women more so they kind of step into it. But if you look at some of the research behind it, those feelings of, you know, the fear of doing something new and.

First of all, that’s completely natural and it’s a brain responsible. So men and women both feel that. It’s just, like you said, they probably show it differently. And maybe more open about, Oh gosh, this scary, Whereas Mary like, Oh, I’ll try it anyway, See what happens. Yeah,

Gaynor: yeah, yeah. No, and I think, I mean, generally I found [00:21:00] male colleagues have been generally very supportive.

But yeah, you, you do have those funny environments and for years I’ve gone to sort of conferences and meetings, been the only woman in the room and it, it can have a little bit strange, but generally it’s not been too bad. I, I, I guess I try to not dwell on some of the more negative situations, you know?

Too much really. Yeah,

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. And, and we can all learn from those as well, can’t we? You know, what was acceptable, used to be acceptable, was no longer acceptable. And having that environment where you can call out and give. Feedback to people, maybe behaviors that are appropriate now as maybe were at one point, so Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. And when you go into those rooms and you are the only woman in the room, how do you kind of prep yourself and get ready and, and do you see it as part of it or do you see it actually of just focus on the task and focus on the delivery or what I need to get out of this meeting or what, what message I have?

Yeah,

Gaynor: I, I tend to focus on, on the task. I mean, I guess it [00:22:00] depends on, on. The type of meeting. But yeah, I tend to be more focused on, on what it is I’m trying to deliver and, um, I guess bringing them around to my point of view in some ways. But I also look at it, particularly if it’s a new situation or, or a group that I don’t know.

It, it is, again, I sort sort to do step back and take that sort of people view. And so try to sort of evaluate from a personality perspective what might be the best way of approaching those individuals at the next. Communication, engagement and, and thinking about how you do that because. Nine times out 10, whether it’s, whether they’re male or female, it is about what their agenda is, what they’re trying to do, and what their hot buttons are.

Um, and, and then it’s putting what you are trying to deliver maybe into the context of how it marries up with what they’re trying to deliver, but also understanding, I think you’ve got, you’ve gotta be, you need to actively listen in those situations as well and, and take, because there’s a lot the people will give away just [00:23:00] in talking about even how.

Defend against something. Yeah. Tells you quite a lot about people and, and then you can think about how do we, I’m always looking for positive ways to break down those barriers to achieve. What I need to achieve for the organization. And then I always bear in mind what the organization is trying to achieve.

So it’s not just what I’m trying to achieve for my own personal agenda. Yeah. And I, and I generally find if it’s in the context of the, the good of the company and, and what the organization is trying to achieve, then, then there’s a route through.

Nicola: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So it’s almost coming, it’s understanding the personalities, how to communicate and how to support them with what they need.

Whilst holding this is, this is what my priority is, what my focus is. Yeah.

Gaynor: Yeah. And I, I guess the sort of focus I have on data as well is, is part of that, because having, having the data to. It takes emotion out the discussion. Absolutely. Yeah. The you to better illustrate whatever it is, you know, depending on the conversation, but [00:24:00] it takes emotion out of it.

So it, it’s not an emotive discussion. It, it’s, it’s very factually based. I do try, encourage my team to think about things in that way. Yeah. Um, and to understand, you know, understand equally what. , the, the customer or the, you know, the, the other part of the organization is trying to achieve.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. And from your experience, what, what’s really working within organizations and O B T’s doing a lot around, you know, encouraging diversity inclusion, including bringing more women into the industry and retaining talent through the industry. So what, what do you think’s working really well?

Gaynor: I think the, the opportunity.

To have sort of mentoring programs and, and the sponsors and, and those types of activities are, are really, really helpful across the organization cuz it, it, it doesn’t now it allows people to sort of be matched up and find someone, you know, that they can talk to, but it encourages people to network as well within the organization.

Yeah. [00:25:00] Also sort of reaching out into, into the schools programs. There’s a lot of activity to support sort of, Uh, education, you know, not just in girls, but in, in all, all parts of, of the educational spectrum and, and even at graduate level. That I think is raising the discussion and I think getting people to talk about it and seeing that there are women in these roles and they, they are, you know, have, they have got good careers and they’re interesting, interesting roles cuz.

I think I, I guess I look at the experience of my own children through school and, and there’s, there’s not enough of that going on in education and even like computer science education is, it’s all out to date. I, I’d much rather see a much more joined up, um, relationship between industry and education so that we had people who were alive and active in industry, talking in schools and educating.

Pupils rather than teaching from a textbook that’s actually out. Cause [00:26:00] technology’s moving so fast, the textbook’s out a date before it’s even got off the printing press. So, you know, we, we’ve got to, we’ve gotta sort of get kids excited about this sort of stuff and get involved in sort of projects and programs with industry, I think.

Yeah, great. Encourage that and inspire and, and, and that’s an inspiration on both sides because I’ve seen some great projects that some, um, secondary school children are doing. Leveraging technology, and this was before, um, Covid and everything, but leveraging technology for hand washing and, and the sort of blue technology and all sort, and really quite inspirational in terms of the, the way they’re thinking about and what they were able to actually produce.

You know, it’s not just, not just a sketch or something. It’s actually something that they’ve been able to produce. And the more we. Have those sort of joined up connections between industry and education, I think will, will really inspire the next generations.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And what, what more do you think, um, so [00:27:00] obviously of the grass routes there, but for women that are already in the industry, what, what more support do you think would work to keep them.

In the industry because there is, like we said, cuz it’s changed so quickly. There is a need for that strength, that resilience and you know, that certainty in yourself to trust, to make decisions. Well a lot of information sometimes, or to change priority really quickly.

Gaynor: Yeah, I think it is having, having that ex being exposed to different situations and, and, and there’s a drive, you know, we have to drive that for ourselves.

But from a, you know, finding the right. Even if the organization doesn’t have a mentoring scheme, find somebody reach out to them. Say there’s a lot of people who are very, very supportive. There are now external organizations that sort of bring women together across industries to again, support and mentor each other and, and there are many networks out there to connect with cuz it really is about being able to sort of talk to people and find.

The right, right. [00:28:00] Connections, um, for yourself. But networking I think is, is really important. And getting out there and talking to people, don’t sit there sort of head down silos. Yeah. Look out and talk to people and, and, and reach out and, and think about areas you want. You know, even if it’s areas that you might be inquisitive about.

You know, reach out to those people. Cause you, you never know where these connections are gonna lead and, and where that might take you in terms of your, your thought processes and where you might wanna direct your career.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I know for me, when I, I had some brilliant formal network and, um, and mentoring relationships.

But if I, if I went to a meeting, it was someone that I repeatedly see doing something brilliantly that I was just really inspired by, it’d be brave enough to go and ask, Would you have a coffee? Would you. Yeah. Um, consider mentoring me for a period of time. I’d really like to get some insights on these things that I’ve seen you do so brilliantly.

Well, and it’s almost, I think again, with women in the industry, it’s like we can be very head down, getting on with [00:29:00] stuff and delivering brilliantly, but there’s almost the second part of that, which is. Owning that self-promotion piece and owning that, going and building your network. So if you don’t know the answer you, you might still know someone that does know the answer or having an informal conversation that’s scenario.

Really interesting. Can we grab the 10 minutes and kind of just kind of just learn more about it and almost that into that very conscious owning of your career rather than just that head down delivering, doing a brilliant job in the day job. There’s the other part of it as well.

Gaynor: Yeah. Yeah. You’ve gotta, you’ve gotta manage, manage as you say, your own sort of, sort of profile within that environment and, and take the opportunities where you see them.

There are, I mean, there’s, there’s an organization that involved with called cao, which has got an app, which is women can, uh, you know, that’s draw in to, to being it, but I’m a mentor, but you can find a mentor. But also there’s a lot of useful resources on there that the, um, educational materials and connections and networks to, I love that to.[00:30:00]

Support as well. So there’s more of these things coming, I think.

Nicola: Oh, brilliant. Well, we’ll get, we’ll get that and pop that in the show notes, so anyone could just have a look at that. Okay. Cause I think things like that, for that connection, for that education, for that, yeah. Being part of something is just so important and Yeah, absolutely.

And what’s next for you then? So you’ve got this great role at the moment, and obviously some huge challenges with that. You know, sometimes maybe firefighting versus strategy versus supporting the business and being a real enabler and a. In an area that might not have always felt like that. What do you think, What’s next for you?

What are you excited about ?

Gaynor: Well, I, no, I am excited about delivering this cuz we’re really right at the start of the journey. Yeah. Uh, and, and really, um, really inspiring the team now cause we’re just on the cu of sort of launching this and, and sharing this with the, the wider team and, and getting the strategy off the ground.

But yeah, yeah, inspiring the team and, and actually really starting to see the changes come through. Um, in BT and, and, [00:31:00] and, you know, the, the organization itself’s going, undergoing huge transformation. So this is a really, I think this is a really positive part of, of that, that journey for the organization.

So yeah, that’s, that’s sort of my main focus at the moment. I’m, I, I can’t see beyond that at the moment until we really sort of get, get moving. Yeah. Yeah. I want, I want to leave BT in a better place than

Nicola: when I joined. I love that. And that comes back to what you said at the very beginning about making a difference and creating, knowing that when you leave, it’s in a better position than when you started.

Does that drive you quite a lot, almost that, that legacy and making a difference? Yeah. And, and, and.

Gaynor: But that, yes, very much so in terms of making that difference and knowing that I haven’t made change the organization. But also I like to make, think that I’ve sort of had a positive impact on the teams that I’ve worked with and those people who’ve worked me.

And, and I continue to support people who’ve worked for me in the past, you know, in, in their careers and, and I like to see them thrive and grow. And develop their careers in [00:32:00] whichever direction that that might go in, really. So that, that I find, um, inspirational for me as well.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Is there a final less, um, a message or a lesson for our audience today that, listen,

Gaynor: don’t be too hard on yourself. I love that rec, remember your, Yeah. Don’t do hard on yourself. You are, you know, we’re all human and we all have that. We all have that. We all have our moments. Don’t see things that go wrong as a failure.

Mm. To see it as an opportunity. Learn something, or it’s an opportunity to change direction. Don’t dwell on the failure. Yeah.

Nicola: It’s kind of failing forward, isn’t it? If you learn four ways not to do something. Ultimately, the fifth way could be the way that. It’s actually building on all. Yeah. Yeah.

Gaynor: And I know that’s easy to say and not necessarily easy to do, but I think that’s where building that network and having the right connections and and other women within your, your environment will, he will help you through just being able to sort of talk about it and expand on it and, and [00:33:00] understand it just helps you get it into context sometimes.

Cause I. You know, it can sometimes become bigger than, than it

Nicola: really is. Yeah. Abso I’ll take it really personally and like you said, one bad, you know, a bad meeting or not such a, not your best age as it’s not your career forever. No,

Gaynor: that’s it. A bad meeting is like, it’s just a bad meeting. Exactly. So be another one that’s

Nicola: Yeah, exactly. Oh, well thank you so much for your time today and it’s just, it’s been really just brilliant to hear just within your role, what you’re doing and everything that’s gonna be achieved and just, Yeah. And how you’ve got to where you are. So thank you so much. Just some really brilliant lessons are I think so.

Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you. It’s

Gaynor: been a,

Nicola: If you love what I have to say and you like to find out more about working with me, easiest way to do that is to book a Get to Know You call. So there’s a link to that in the show notes. I can help you through working with your organization to help close the gender pay [00:34:00] gap through women’s leadership program.

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