Nicola: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to Women at the top of Telecoms and Tech, and I’m very, very excited Today. I have got an incredible guest for me to. Day. It’s taken us a little while to get a date in the diary, but I’m so, so excited that she’s here and given us some of our time today. And I’ve got, I’ve checked how to say her name, so I think we’re all good.

So I’ve got Cinderella, Amad, um, and she’s the managing director of JP Morgan Chase and Co. And today we’re just gonna be talking about hers. Story, her journey, how she’s got to this position, and just really just sharing some of the lessons that she’s had from being within a male dominated part. Cuz she started with tax and kind of very focused and then moved more into general management has now obviously been a, a managing director for some time.

So I wanted to, to kind of get the lessons from her as well about that. And just also what we see as. In the style of leadership, we were just [00:01:00] talking before we came on, there’s definitely a shift in the style of leadership over the last two years, given that everything that’s happened in the corporate world.

So welcome Cindy Re I’m really excited that you’re here today and thank you for your

Cindyrella: time. Yeah, hello Nicola and thanks a lot for the invitation. For me, it’s a real pleasure to join this conversation and um, I think it’s always important to share experience and to have discussion around, uh, women in, in, I would say in a male dominated.

Nicola: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, like I said, so I’ve done a friending LinkedIn, uh, stalk of you and I saw that you started, I’ve actually got a few clients that work within the financial services industry and I, that was, I actually worked within the financial service before I went into more, um, telecoms and I kind of know that world a little bit, so I know it can be quite male dominated.

So I know that you started off as a kind of tax advisor. I went into then head of tax, then went into senior management roles, and then into this managing director role. Um, and you’ve been in for a number of years now, so, I’ve kind of looked at your career, but can you just share some of the chapters of [00:02:00] your life and your career that’s kind of brought you to being in this, this brilliant position now in this very, very senior position with a lot of responsibility.

So just some of the chapters that have brought you to where you are now. Really?

Cindyrella: Yeah. No, no, thank you. Ni and this, So actually I, I will not. Through my whole cv. I don’t want to bury people with this, but, uh, as, as you mentioned, actually I’m, I’m a French German tax law, so I started really in the tax industry and I did quite a couple of keys in this industry, and then I, I moved to the financial industry where I quickly had some more.

General role now I’m an MD for more or less 10 years. Uh, also if I only feel like, so

Nicola: where does

Cindyrella: say position I was? I BNY Mellon in Embo. The tax team, but also the first team. So purely I would say, a very operational team. So again, uh, an area where you have a very, I would say more men dominated, uh, industry.

Yeah. [00:03:00] To where I was a c of the third party management company. So I would say it’s also quite unusual to have women in this world. I, I saw recently some studies who were saying, Uh, I think it’s less than 20% of women who had this type of role in, in management companies. Yeah. Um, did there a couple of years and then decided to move back to, uh, an American bank.

So I joined, uh, GP four years ago and uh, currently I’m a part of the management team of our up legal and. So GPM se, where I’m in charge of Operation Outsourcing and Technology. So quite happy with my journey, but as you mentioned before, I probably will enter more in the conversation around this. It was not always a easy journey.

When I look around me, I would say it’s quite a journey where you, you lose women on the way to the top. Uh, you see less and less women, meaning you able to less and less role model. And I think. Still plenty of work to do in this area, [00:04:00] and I consider as, as a responsibility for myself is to have otherly women, younger women, to get to the top of, of the organization because otherwise we will never bring a change and we will not live in, in a more fair and more, I would say, diverse,

Nicola: uh, world.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I, I’m making notes cuz there’s lots of things I wanna go back to there. But one I, where I like to kind of start is just a couple of things that you mentioned. One was around, um, just some of the challenges that you felt that you had. So can you just share some of those challenges?

Cause I’m sure they’re gonna resonate if it’s women at the moment that at the very top are women that know they have the capability to get to top, but they’re kind of sat doubting themselves and they’re, they’re facing some challenges. What were, what were some of the challenges that you faced that you, you could share?

And

Cindyrella: I would say there’s different type of challenge, and I will probably start with the most difficult challenge. And it’s what I will always call the invisible challenge because you don’t see them and it’s sometimes difficult to explain them. So one of the challenge, for example, if [00:05:00] you want to progress, if you want to have a promotion, it’s important that you are part of certain conversations that you are seen by senior managers to give you more responsibilities to, to bring you in a new project, for example.

Yeah. But often this decision. Made offline, uh, or made true network, true connection. So if it’s only network with mostly men and, and naturally you say human being tend to go to people who look like them. So naturally when you want to, to give a new project to someone, you will go to someone who is closer to you physically, also often, but then also emotionally or why you can project yourself.

If the person look like you, you can imagine, and you have a good opinion of yourself, you imagine that this person will deliver the project because he’s like you. So I would say that is an individual challenge because you cannot demonstrate it. It’s not factually, it’s not something where you can building metrics.

Yeah. Say give me end of the month the number of project who was not allocated to give us people. But it’s [00:06:00] the reality. And um, that, for example, is something is very difficult for, for, for women is to be. To be in this circle who distributes this project who may be for you a, a, a platform. In combination of this, often we, we say that women tend to less self promote themselves, and we say that in combination with the first talent.

It’s also, it create even a bigger gap because not only is that they’re not seen or not directly, the first person that the people who distribute the promotion or the new project have in mind. But equally they’re not wing their hand or wing their voice. So that’s create a second gap who is also, again, very difficult to to measure because you cannot build any metrics to say, How many women have raised a hand for new project?

So, uh, I would say that is some challenge that we, we don’t speak enough about it. Yeah, it’s some real challenge and I think we see more and more [00:07:00] training around unconscious bias because it’s also connected to unconscious bias. Yeah. But on a day to day basis, we, we need to continue to pay attention to this, and we need also to create, I would say, sponsorship, allyship for diverse people.

Each time that a new project is upcoming, each time that a new platform is created, it’s important to look what are my, uh, panel of candidates. And do I have enough diverse candidate to allocate the project to the best person, to the one with the best knowledge, and maybe the one who is, is is less visible.

And then I would add a sub flavor also on this. And that’s probably really now related with the new style of working is a hybrid working. Yeah. But what we see also, and actually we, we had recent pieces, a debate in with a couple of other senior people around this. We were saying women often face the issue with childcare, especially when.

It’s a, it’s a mid carry time, whereas I have young children. Yeah. Whereas I, the middle management, whereas I would like to progress but [00:08:00] equals I need to find the balance between, uh, work life balance between taking care of the children. And so we say one of the solution could be to propose more, uh, work from home option, because when you are at home, it’s easier.

Yeah. You don’t waste your time in commuting, et cetera. But then what I said is also, that’s great. It’s a good idea, but we should not end it up in this situation where the childcare, the people who take the person who take care of, of the care of the children, who is mostly still the woman, is at home and less visible again, whereby all the men are in the office.

Cause then they continue to create their network. They continue to have offline conversation. And yes, the women have, I would. Better work life balance or better way to manage private life and professional life, but disappear even more from this platform and from this conversation. So I would say that is what I call the invisible challenges.

I dunno. Nicola, this is something that you, [00:09:00] you had in mind?

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. I. From the work that I do in organizations, the work that I do with my clients. Yeah, that, that almost that invisibility, like you said. And I’ve had clients that have stepped into things to be part of those conversations around promotions, bonuses, you know, I’ve had clients that have.

Taken golf lessons so they can be part of the conversations of the golf course. I’ve had clients who don’t agree with hunting, but they’ve gone out on the hunts and shoots because actually that’s where conversations are taking place or clients that don’t really drink. But again, it’s. If I go to bed early, I miss those conversations.

So for me, it kind of reflects back on the work that I do and it splits into two things. Like I, I can do this brilliant job of empowering amazing women like you and women that look to be like someone like you. And I can do that, and I can do that incredibly well. But I see more and more the part of the work that I need to do is also taking the [00:10:00] feedback and lived experience from those women back to back to the board level to have the conversations to, This isn’t anything about.

Blaming men. It’s not anything about, you know, them and us. Not at all. It’s like this is the state of the nation. This is the lived experience of some of the most talented people you have. What can we do to change it and to help them to feel for, want a better word, to feel safe, To feel like they have loyalty, to feel part of the community and not to feel like if they make a decision to have a child, that actually that’s their career, then shifts down a gear.

It shouldn’t be like that. So how do we also make you mindful? Actually, if you’re having those conversations on the golf course when you’re drinking heavily, that actually that does naturally then exclude certain people from that conversation. And it reminds me, I dunno if you are a fan of the friends comedy series, but there was a, um, Rachel, when she was then getting into corporate world and she was in working in fashion, I.

And it was a time when smoking was much more prevalent, so she started to pretend to smoke. So she could be in those [00:11:00] conversations around deciding what they were gonna choose for the next line or, you know, what’s the, the biggest product that they’re selling at the moment and why? For me it’s that I can do that job of empowering and I love doing that, but actually it’s also how do we help shift those conversations?

Be more, have, include more diversity within the conversations, ironically, to lead into more diversity. And I think you’re right on the second point there. And I see I spend a lot of time helping women to learn, to self promote and to know it’s not a bad thing. Like it’s one thing to do a great job and deliver on everything, all of your objectives and to do more, but it’s another part of your job to actually tell people that you’re doing that.

And that doesn’t make you arrogant. It doesn’t make you boastful. It just means that you, you are telling people about the impact that you’re having. You’re telling people about the great work that you are doing. And that doesn’t need to be arrogant or both. So it can be just like, I know that I’m doing this and I’m doing it really well, and you can do it in a way that use some of the structures [00:12:00] that are already there.

So, yeah, I, I really agree with a lot of this, and I think for me, it’s part of that shift in the tone and leadership that’s needed that we, we were talking about before we came on. If we just go back to his challenges in a moment. For you, with those challenges as you saw them kind of coming to the fore, how did you tackle those challenges?

So did you get support? Did you focus on your career development more? Did you develop certain skills or more resilience or what did you do to kind of tackle some of those change? Cuz these are big systemic challenges women face.

Cindyrella: So, yeah, fully hear you on this. And I would say, um, everyone had also his own journey.

So, uh, I would say my, my journey and I will share a little bit about my journey and how I did overcome this challenge. And there’s probably some lesson learned, but then I think it’s also each time individual journey and it’s each time a specific story. But you mentioned one point, for example, I would say resiliency.

Resiliency is super important overall in life. I think we will [00:13:00] all face some challenges. Yeah. I was reading actually this morning, uh, a book on my flight from Luxembourg to London and the White in life we only knew three things that we will come to life, we will get older and we will suffer. Uh, and you say it’s not very positive to see this, but actually it’s a reality.

It’s only that, you know, and it’s true that we will all go through this also if you’re very faith, et cetera, but at one point you will get older. Actually, we’ll start to suffer. So I would say what we have to learn in life to manage with this difficult situation. Yeah. And when we bring this to the corporate world, it’s exactly the.

The higher you go to the organization, the more actually you will face challenges. The less you will have. I would say positive emotions. The more you will have difficulties, because each time and the higher you are, everyone come with this problem. Some people come with with, uh, with the good news, but the reality, a lot of problem will face you and it means that you will have to be ready and you’ll also, you need [00:14:00] to be ready to fail.

And I don’t think that we, we teach this. And we probably also, we don’t teach this enough to, to woman, but I think we have to learn to fail in life and to learn from, from our hours. And that it’s, it’s not bad. It’s you, you fail. It’s okay. You learn your lesson and you stand up again and you do to the next because no one wakes up in the morning and is a perfect senior leader.

No one. Yeah. But I would say, uh, putting this in connection with, often I would say a lower self-confidence of women, and it’s still a, and, and I know we, we speak about it, but I still see it in my own teams when I see how women present themselves and how men present themselves. I, I see each day’s differences.

So I, we often a woman self for. Reason, and it’s probably also difficult to explain. So adding a low self confidence with, um, a fear of, of failing, then it, it, it make difficult. So that is something really that you said we have to [00:15:00] learn. What I have done a lot also in my life, I, I did a lot of sports and I was thinking because you need also to do some of work where, but where you learn to go and where you learn to challenge yourself.

Absolutely. And where you learn also to fail because where, when you start to do. I don’t know, some, some sport. Uh, and for example, I, I, at one point I was really doing a lot of scuba diving. Oh, amazing. I was completely scared about this, you know, going under water, not able to grease. Uh, normally on the top I wear some land, so having water time, a mask, meaning I cannot see anymore.

So really losing control of most of my . My . Yeah. Way to manage my life, but equally I knew that. And what I did learn through this, for example, is first of all, I can overcome my fears. I can manage my emotions, but also overcoming this had allowed me to discover completely new world and the wonderful world that I would’ve never been able to, to see if I would’ve stayed on the ground, on the earth in a secure place.

Mm-hmm. , I took the. And, uh, [00:16:00] I had also, I remember my first lesson I did diving in the lake. I was unable to see anything. I was frozen. It was, I was, are you crazy? Do I have nothing else to do? But it was really creating this, this muscle of, I overcome my fear. I don’t give up. I, I will fail. It’s okay. And I will relearn from it.

Um, but then I did discover, I come to the next stage, I come to the next level and it it build myself confidence. Yeah, so I would say coming back to, to challenges. So first be ready also because no one tell you when you are a junior woman that it will get harder and harder and that you will have less and less support in a certain way, and that you will feel more and lost Also, isolat, because the women is also, you are quite isolat because there’s not a lot.

Peers around you, not a lot of other women. So meaning you don’t have a lot of role models, you’re not always part of this group as we said it at the beginning. So you are also alone. So you need to get ready, all of this. And I think we should prepare more. Uh, [00:17:00] if you focus now on women also, if usually I try to focus on.

People in general, but I think as woman and for the, for the children that have the young girl, we need to prepare them to get ready to overcome this challenge. To not be afraid about failing, uh, to build a self confidence. And then probably the last point is also the network around the, the best is to have a network at place where you can have, uh, other people you can rely.

Ally. So if it’s a supportive manager or a supportive peer, but if you don’t find it in your workplace, it’s also important to have it in your private life, your family, your best friends. People always remind you also how great you are. Also on a day where you feel really bad. And also who give you this power to continue.

Cause no one can be successful alone. You need a group of people around you. And I would say that that is certain element that I would recommend, or at least it was helping me like to, to overcome most of the, of the [00:18:00] challenges.

Nicola: Absolutely. Oh my gosh, there’s so much I wanna talk about that. But if we, if we start off with, I love how, again, I love when we’re on these podcasts, interviews and things, really big themes come out.

Talk a lot to clients about failing forward. And actually, it’s okay. Is it a failure still? If you are learning from it? If you’re growing from it, and we’ve all, like you said, you don’t get to be a great leader without making mistakes, without refining your leadership style or saying things a different way or trying something on and actually finding that way.

It’s not quite right for me, but this way is. So just that encouragement and knowing. It doesn’t make you a failure to fail and that change in label, like, Oh, it didn’t go how I wanted it to, but this is what I’ve learned from it. This is what I would do next time. So when, when I was in my corporate career, I ran multimillion pound launches for telecoms companies.

But, and a lot of that was brilliant and I loved it. And you, you give me a brief, you give me a date and I would bring the team together and I would, I would make it all happen. But I made some huge errors at times. I [00:19:00] made some real. Yeah, things didn’t go well. But actually what it meant that over time, that’s what I moved into doing because I became so good at it and it’s like, yes, this has gone wrong, but actually I’m not, I’m not just gonna take a blame for it.

I’m gonna learn from it. I’m gonna grow from it. And I know for next time this is something that I’ll, I’ll know from the very beginning and that’s okay. And there’s no shame in that. It’s just a human process of evolution. So I absolutely love that part of it. And I think as. The piece where you said, Let’s prepare women that are looking up, that are looking up to women like you thinking, why can’t I get there?

I can get there saying it in that I can get there too. But knowing it does get more difficult in the way that there might be less of you as you less natural female peers as you move up. There might be more challenges. There might be the work might be. More, you know, resolve something very quickly in the moment, and now we have to make this decision today.

So just be prepared for that. But knowing actually, there’s a lot of [00:20:00] positives that you can bring to, there’s a lot of skill that you can bring to it. But knowing that, like you said, You might get more isolated, might get harder in that way. So have that support crew. I’ve interviewed a lot of women around a white paper that I’m writing, and again, these women are incredible women that are doing brilliant things, that are changing the world, that are challenging these stereotypes.

And one woman in particular just share her story quickly, but she’s very, very senior within bt now she has four children. Um, and she’s still managed to have that level of career, and part of that is her husband does the majority of the childcare. And she also, she doesn’t guarantee in any week that she will do a school pickup or drop off if she can get there and she can finish a meeting early on, clear her diary.

She will, and she loves it and her children love it, but she said I, I had to move away from the guilt that it needed to be me. When I had my husband, I had my parents helping me and the children know that actually. I will be there if I can be there, but I can’t always be there. And I’m trying to be that example to them of a woman is in [00:21:00] creating this great, great career and making it a change and creating a legacy.

So it’s that balance of stepping away from the guilt versus actually I want to show them that they can do or be whoever they want to be.

Cindyrella: Yeah. No, and I think that a very important point because you, you mentioned not being guilty and being yourself. I think the, the first thing is also be aligned to yourself and, and that’s already not easy to ask yourself.

Is it really what I want? Yeah. Is aligned with my needs. Is it really the wide directions that I take? And it’s okay also to reflect on this and to change your mind in, uh, doing the journey. But I think it’s important yes. Always to come back to this. Cause if you are, if you’re aligned to. The world will also see you in a different way, but also you mentioned at that point is accepting help.

And I think that you cannot do everything by your own. And I think reaching out for help, finding the right support, and again, it’s, it’s not always easy you, but I think it’s easy to ask help for people you trust. Uh, and where you have built a relationship, it’s more [00:22:00] complicated in the corporate world where someone you, you face the situations.

You are not in a trustful relationship, so that, that’s even more complicated. But I think you, you should feel okay to ask for help and uh, that’s also something that we should, uh, teach, uh, to, to, to to woman. Yes. I remember I was quite educated in a way that I have to fix everything by my own. And that really to learn to ask for help.

Yeah. Um, and also asking help in all direction. It could be help from. People more junior from people who are, uh, at level below than you. It could be help from peers and it could be help from your senior management, from your direct manager, et cetera. But yeah, I think that, and it’s something. Again, where I think we don’t speak enough about it and we don’t encourage enough women to ask for help, and it’s okay.

On the other side, we should not forget the unconscious bias. And it, it could be seen in a negative way sometimes when a woman is asking for help. So I [00:23:00] think we need also to, uh, train and to educate, um, yeah. Of our presented population, who is actually the, the white man that a man can ask for. And a woman can ask

for

Nicola: Yeah, and for both.

It’ll keep, Yeah. But it’s like you said, isn’t it? It’s that, that wider diversity and, and feeling safe for anyone to ask for help, whatever, whatever level they’re at, whatever challenge they’re facing, it’s like, and if, if they’re feeling it, And that’s a lived experience and it’s very unlikely they’re the only one to be feeling it.

So you are, you are the voice of people that maybe aren’t quite as brave as you. So it’s, it’s so powerful then to speak up on and set something emotion that actually is gonna change for a bigger group of people than just yourself. But you are, you are the one that’s got uncomfortable enough to say, Actually, this needs to change.

This needs to be different. , and I think that’s where, for me, I love the work that I do working with these incredible women and the work I do organizations to drive change. But it’s like you said, if we can encourage and give people tools to really know who they are [00:24:00] and the safety, then to show up as at work with whatever that brings, then that, to me is true.

Inclusion on diversity. You know, whatever your background, um, whatever your gender, however you identify. We don’t need to leave that at home anymore. That’s not, that’s not the, that’s not the state of the world. That’s not what the world is looking for. Now, that’s not, not where the corporate world is. So if we can demonstrate, and for me as well, it’s part of almost, well, if we can’t get to the point where we have equality of gender, how do we then, How do we then create that equality for different backgrounds, different ethnic groups, disabled versus able bodied?

It’s like for me it’s almost, we need to get this right to then feed that into the wider, those different diverse minority groups. And that for me is like that, that real drive for inclusion. Yeah, no,

Cindyrella: fully, I agree with you on this. I think we often tend to focus on, on, on gender diversity, for example.

Again, it’s something that you can measure very easily. Yeah, and it’s the most obvious one still because half of the world population are woman, [00:25:00] so you would expect to see half of the world population senior position, for example. But I think the, the we diversity is regardless from where you are coming from regarding what is your origin, what is your religion, what is your sexual orientation?

Yeah. What is Que background, where you grew up with, with which principle you grew. You are accepted like you are. Yeah, and you are not judged. I think that’s also something very important is you bring to the table what you are ended enough and it’s already very important and I think there’s still a lot of work to, to be done in this direction.

Nicola: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And have you, have you ever felt that you faced bias or felt excluded through being a woman particularly? Yeah.

Cindyrella: Completely . Yeah. And, uh, what, what I would say was quite interesting in my journey is I have not felt it, I would say in the 10 12. First year of my, my career. Um, also, I remember when I was at school, I, I grew up in France, so I did, for example, a Level A in [00:26:00] mathematic and physics, and I felt never that it’s more.

For, for for boys. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but now that I look back, and when I think about this here, I remember we already 20% of of girls and 80% of of boys in, in this class. But I didn’t work with a mindset. This is reserv for boys, this is for girls or something. For me, it just was natural. But then, and I enter with this mindset also in my carry journey, I know the feelings that it would be an advantage or disadvantage to be a woman.

I was just thinking, I’m a person who bring my knowledge at the table and I would be judged on this. So I would say I did progress on my carry without a feeling, um, of being different or. Being a woman, I have to say I did my, my MD on that woman. So under the leadership of a woman, was it helping? I don’t know, but at least I had a role model and someone where felt understood and accepted.

But then, When I did really progress in more senior position, [00:27:00] then I realized actually there is some differences and I’m treated in a different way. And, um, I was not always included. I had to face some microaggression at this moment where I did start, first of all, to um, To myself. Confidence. Yeah, because I was asking always, Oh my God, maybe I’m really, I’m fake.

I’m not, I’m not so good. I don’t bring the white thing at the table. So it at this moment, whereas this little voice in my head started to, to turn in. But equally, and I would say someone, that’s also the nice lesson for me I, that we are not in a gender equality world and that I have to fight for the white of woman.

That I have to fight for my white, but I have to fight for all for the white of all. And, uh, so I was able to, to make something positive out it. But it’s true that it, at one point it was more aha moment for me. I said, actually I’m treated in a different woman way and I’m treated in a different way cause I’m a woman.

Yeah,

Nicola: [00:28:00] yeah. But obviously that journey for you cuz my, my husband is science and geeky and is dentist, so he, he did a physics degree, but yeah, he said the number of women on his course were probably less than 10. Versus a couple of hundred. Very, you know, one of the top universities in London. And he said, But I suppose for you, that experience of, that’s the subject that I love, that’s where I’m very gifted.

That’s where I wanna, what I wanna pursue. You were probably in that more male dominated framework from such an early age. Maybe it wasn’t as obvious to you. Yeah, probably. So you’re kind of used to that. Oh, that was

Cindyrella: used at the end. Yeah. But what was interesting is even at the beginning, I did not realize it.

So I think also sometimes probably we. Where is the problem coming from? Is it not? The problem also that we create at one point? Cause when I, where I grew up, I was always told that I have the same white and duties than the man. So being in this level A or only with boys, for me there was really no [00:29:00] idea that it would be more reserved to boy.

It was completely, it was something that I was even not imagined. But after when I to start to face another reality, it started to to become in my head. So I think it’s also probably here we have to, to make a change and we have probably to. Change in early age in the head of our little girls, but also in the head of little boys that actually nursing is reserved for, For boys or girl, everyone can have access to the same.

And then maybe with this, we already start to remove from bias because I think with my journey at the end, I started to have bias against myself that I had did not at the

Nicola: begin. Yeah. Yeah. So almost you went through that unaware phase. Cause it’s just how things are into, Oh my gosh. I’m the only woman into Oh my, the womb,

Cindyrella: you know?

Yeah. And oh my God, why I am the only woman was as a woman. Why not the womb? So it was really, Yes. It’s this moment where, Oh, I have to do something around this.

Nicola: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I just wanted to ask as well, just with being the only woman in the room [00:30:00] sometimes, do you feel, do you always carry, So a lot of the women that I’ve talked to, it’s almost as you become more senior, you have your job, you have your deliverables, you have your responsibility for your, might be a p and l, might be your team, for example, might be whole division.

And there’s that responsibility and there’s delivering on what you are meant to in your role. Probably wider projects at that level and maybe input into strategy as well. But do you also feel as a woman that has got to that very senior position, is also a responsibility for almost like the job plus? So if I just explain what I mean, it’s almost, you are a great inspiration to women in the organization.

You can, you are in a senior position, so you can, you have a lived experience to. That, that what you said wasn’t quite appropriate or that behavior’s not acceptable anymore and almost, you know, to be on the panels, to speak up, things to be part of if you have a women’s network or a gender 50 50 network to kind of be part of that, almost.

What’s the word? What’s the word? Pioneering that actually this [00:31:00] is, this is what you can have. Like I’m, I’m here. It’s been hard work, but I’m here. I’m in this position. There’s no reason why you can’t get here. Why not you?

Cindyrella: Yeah, no, for sure. And that it’s, it’s true that often it sit in addition. Of of the day job on the shoulder of diverse person to, to speak up, to be present in panel to show the, the journeys that they’ve done.

And I would say it’s good and I’m happy to do this. It’s also driver for me, but equally I think we should not expect only from the diverse person to do it. Yeah. And anyway, we can only bring this change if we bring on the overall presented population. So, So the white men, and I think we should equally expect from white men.

To be present in panel discussion, to be a sponsor, to be ally to people, to, to, to try to understand what’s going on. Because sometimes as it, they’re not facing these problems, they have never this feeling of being the only man in the room, for example. So I would say we, we need to allocate time to both.[00:32:00]

To the diverse population who can, uh, who should act as a role model and help more junior people to come to the same level and to give the tools to this more diverse junior population. But equally, we should help, uh, the, the, the, the. To be part of this journey and to spend also time on this and Yeah, absolutely.

I’m still hopeful that things change. The younger generation you see also more balance. I had interviews this morning with the men and he asked me about work life balance and he say, Look, for me, it’s important that I spend time with my kids, that I have time to cook for them, that I can pick up ’em from school deeply like my wife.

So is it something possible? And I was saying, That’s great to hear this. Yeah. This will be, the change actually will come from the white men and from this younger generation probably who are also somewhere fighting for their white because they should also be allowed to spend time with their kids. Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. Can find if they want to have spent time [00:33:00] on whatever is important to them and I think it, it will be a better world. When we have this balance of people with different backgrounds where everyone has the same word, everyone will benefit from it, but we need create space for everyone to work on it together.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. There’s a great example from um, a recent interview that I did for the podcast and it was a friend of mine who works in Vodafone, has got to a really great position and she was sending a note. One of the members of the board and the bounce, the out of office was, I’m not available from these days, these days because I’m joined my paternity with my wife and my new son.

And you know, taking the full paternity leave that is now extended within that organization. So just that demonstration of. Rather than the oh two, the two weeks. It used to be, It’s actually, no. He’s taken the full three months or six months and enjoying it and taking that time and supporting his wife for a huge change.

But also, like you said, demonstrating to [00:34:00] people that might be looking to aspire to be like him. Yeah, it’s okay to take that time. It’s a really important chapter in your life and work will still be there when you get back. Right. Yeah.

Cindyrella: But I think it should be the same way for both sides. Yes. And um, because we tend also to celebrate when a man take paternity leave then, But then equally we would celebrate a woman who take paternity leave.

So I would say it’s something will impact everyone where I have a child at one point, and I think it should be the same. For everyone regardless agenda. And it should have not have a negative impact of the carry of a man or woman who decide to take

Nicola: a away for for their kids. Absolutely. Absolutely. A final area once it’s covered.

Just before we finish today, cause this was something that I kind of read a few things that you shared was just about this shift in style leadership. And I think I need to dedicate a whole podcast episode to this separately, but I’ve seen it and I’ve felt it and I’ve had these discussions and part of what.

Employed to do now is support [00:35:00] given the last few two years and going through lockdown, then move to working from home and then hybrid working for a lot of organizations. Now there’s more wellbeing programs, there’s more support. So I, you know, I run say, lunch and learns or sessions on confidence or, um, how to balance and create more balance or career strategy and all these sort of things.

So it’s all the great kind of frameworks in place, but with that shift in the style of leadership to support that, It’s away from, from what I’ve seen, it’s away from what you, what was described as like command and control, which I would describe like the more autocratic old fashioned do. As I say, brand brown, I think would call it more of the, um, daring style leadership is more the future thinking.

This would be armor style leadership. Don’t question me, but do as I say to this, more empathy, more empowerment, more vulnerable kind of style of leadership, which Bre Brown would call more, um, Dar. So open, be questioned and, and work together to get to this, this point. So can you just share, have you, are you experienced [00:36:00] that you seeing that, do you feel a shift in yourself and the board and the team around you?

Cindyrella: Yeah, completely. So I would say I saw it in the last 20 years of my career, the command and control. Uh, and I still see it, uh, it still exists where you have, and actually the reality is up and come. For men, but I saw it also with some woman who were copying this style where just execute, Shut down. I’m the boss.

I know what you need to be done and do it. And I would say it’s often for me, people who have this style often are people who are lacking actually self confidence and are often reacting on their fear. because you start to be aggressive when you have some fears. Yeah. And uh, I think you can say something very hard in a super calm way or you can make your point without screaming.

There’s zero reason why we should scream in the workspace, you know, unless someone don’t hear well. But, and there’s also sometimes a passive aggressive style that I’ve seen a not in the past, and then it’s even more impressive. I [00:37:00] remember when I was young, I had one, a manager, he was. Very tall guy, physically was twice with what I am and in a very small office.

And when he is in bed mood on the Monday morning, we had each to come one after the other and he would literally screaming on all of us with a physical, I would say, pressure on us. Yeah. I always, I took my share and put it as much as possible away from his neck, physical space, and always as close as possible to the door in case I need to jump out.

What is completely realistic because you say, Look, I at work and I should even not be afraid. Physical attack, but it’ll also, uh, uh, uh, psychological violence. And I would say that it still exists. People who are screaming, who are putting pressure, who express some negative emotion. And I think again, we, we should teach people that they can make their point in a very direct, in a very calm and a very clear way.

And, um, it’s, it’s all a question about communication. And it’s not only in the corporate world, I say overall in the world, we should learn people. [00:38:00] To be able to communicate in a nonviolent way. Yeah, in a respectful way, but making their point. And I think we see this change and, And I would say it’s very good that we see this change because with all the pressures that people have, we cannot add any more pressure.

And I would say 90% of the people who are coming in the office in the morning, I’m motivated. They want to do a job. Absolutely. And I think when you hire someone, the person is super motivated. I have not seen a lot of people accepting signing for the job and. On the first day, Oh no, I don’t want to do this job.

I’m not motivated. So I would say with a leadership style, who is more empathetic, who is more in a cooperative mindset, in the more supportive, you only have employees who are more motivated. Yeah. Want to find a solution. People want to have, people want to do good job. So there you a reason to have this?

Yeah. Our would call it command and control style with a form of aggressivity. I think this is good. This is finished. I hope it’s the end. It’s, I still see it so it still exists, [00:39:00] but I would wish for the younger generations that they don’t have to face this type of management style and that we bring back the human to the office.

Yeah, actually you have a human being who have some skills and who have also some weakness and you don’t know what the person went through in her whole journey, but what you know is that this person want to do a good job, so help the person to do a good job. I really see the manager as someone. Mental help is team cause we’re all under pressure also.

So there is also, and also my day where I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m more, I would say putting pressure and saying we have to deliver, et cetera. Because I have my own pressures that I need also to be able to manage. Yeah. So it’s not easy, but I think we can each day learn. We also do hours. We, we fail, but each day we can learn and we can do.

Nicola: Yeah. I love that. I love that. And like you said, I think it will, I think it’s a term of like the servant leadership. I think that would just, that to me as the. The corporate world, [00:40:00] that is the future of the corporate world, just to help people feel safe, to help people feel loyal. And we got the great resignation on kind of a bit of a war for talent going on.

So it’s, it’s in the interest of the company, but also to give, like you said, it’s human to human experience at the end of the day. So how do we, how do we help people to be as humans? They can at work and as leaders? Bring out, be as human as we can as well. You know, we’re not perfect. We always haven’t always slept brilliantly.

We always haven’t had, you know, something go wrong at home or pressure at home. So it’s okay. You don’t just switch all those off when you come into the office. Yes, you wanna focus, but you don’t just leave those at the door. Um, it’s not to take over your day, but it’s, you are an emotional being, so it’s okay.

Cindyrella: Yeah, it’s continued. Again, I think we should not forget, human relationship are built on. Regardless where, and can only build this trust if you are in a safe space. Um, so I would say we, we should always come back to the idea, okay, how could I create a relationship with this [00:41:00] person? And, uh, trusting, uh, sharing, listening, trying to understand other person.

I would say these are things who, who will allow you to have a strong. Relationship with a person screaming on someone. I don’t think it, it really worked well to, to create a relationship.

Nicola: I agree. I agree completely. And just to finish off with, are there any final lessons that you have for any, any listeners to say that are maybe already in a senior position, but feel like they can do more, they can have a bigger impact on the world, make more of a difference?

Or any final, final lessons for. I would’ve

Cindyrella: actually three things to mention. The first thing, I think it’s sisterhood and that is my special recommendation to women. I think it’s important that as women, we help each other, we connect each other, we stop to fight against each other. We have other people. So I would say that also something that we really need to, to stop this period and, and, and, and be stronger as a group together.

My, my second point would be speak up. [00:42:00] I think silence is never good. Uh, and we really need to speak up, speak up for ourselves, speak up for others, speak up as soon you see situation. And that is, I would say, recommendation for everyone. Yeah. And my final recommendation is just being kind. I think we have all the superpower and it costs nothing to be kind.

To smile to someone to give a supportive word, but it changed the world. And I would say I benefit a lot from, from people who were kind to me. And, uh, often kindness is seen as something negative, but I really consider as, as a superpower. And there’s nothing in being kind.

Nicola: Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, I love that.

That’s been absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today, and if anyone wants to get in touch with you or talk anymore about these subjects, is LinkedIn the best place to find you?

Cindyrella: Yeah. Yeah, I wasn’t happy to discuss this. Uh, it’s a topic was close to my heart, so I think we would be able to speak hours

for

Nicola: hours on this.[00:43:00]

Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. And I just think you spoke with today with such passion and eloquent, so thank you so much for your time today. Been absolutely brilliant.

Cindyrella: Thanks a lot for the invitation. Thank you.

Nicola: Hi, it’s Nick here. I just wanna take a moment just to say thank you for listening. When I’m sat recording a podcast in the deepest steps of coal, it’s incredible to think that it’s reaching women across the world in 30 different countries, and we have thousands of downloads a month. So thank you so much for being part of that and being part of the audience means a world to me.

But I do want to grow this audience. I would love you to help me reach more women like you so that we can really drive positive change in the corporate world. So you can do that one of three. First of all, you can subscribe to the podcast. You never miss an episode. It’s always a new episode. It’s always delivered straight to your inbox.

You can review the podcast and leave us of rating, and the more ratings we have, we also go up in the podcast charts. And finally, you can just share a [00:44:00] favorite podcast with a peer, with a colleague, or on your social media. So I would love you to do that. Thank you for all your help, and I can’t wait for what’s next.