Nicola  00:09

Hello, and welcome to the podcast today you’re listening to women at the top of telco and tech. I am your host, I am Nikolas school CO, I am the coach, working with organisations to help get more women into those most senior roles, to drive change and to create more fair and inclusive cultures. So, welcome to today’s show, I’m gonna be covering something today that I know, is something I still find challenging. And I also know a lot of my clients find challenging as well. And we’re going to be talking today about challenging conversations. So that conversation that you might be putting off that conversation that you might be dreading having the conversation that you haven’t yet put the meeting for in the diary, because you’re, you’re worried you’re feeling anxious, you don’t know what to say, you’re worried you’re going to make the situation worse. You’re worried about how it’s going to set that relationship and the impact that it’s going to have. So if that sounds like something that you’re struggling with, or something that you found challenging, then Today show is really, really going to help you. And I think for women, women at the top of organisations often feels difficult to have those challenging conversations, it feels something that bigger than it needs to be, and we might potentially put it off. And for me, this goes back to you. If you haven’t read it already, I would really recommend that you listen to or you read Untamed by Glenn and Doyle. But where does that come from? Why is that worry and fear of having these more challenging or potentially challenging conversations? Why do we feel the need that actually we just want to toe the line of fit in? Where does that inordinate amount of where we come from, it goes back to that a sense of needing to be the good girl, that sense of needing to fit in that sense of who am I to disrupt things who am I to cause chaos, and who am I to impact on someone else. And that’s all the frameworks that we’ve had growing up as women that we’ve heard time and time again. And almost, when you’re a woman that speaks up, when you’re a woman that stands up things and what they believe in, and you’re a woman that dries really hard for change and speaks up when things aren’t appropriate or behaviour isn’t the right or the right things haven’t been said or you disagree with someone, you can potentially be labelled as someone who is a bit of a bitch, you can be labelled as someone who is trouble, you can be labelled as someone that is difficult or challenging to be around. So it’s all part of that framework that we’ve inherited. So I would just really invite you if you’re someone who now is listening, and this is resonating with and you’re facing a potentially challenging conversation, or there’s something you’ve been putting off that you know, that actually would help to have that conversation. Just think about more widely than yourself. Where do you think that worry is coming from? Why do you think it’s making you so anxious? And also, there’s a great book by Dale Carnegie old book great book called Seven Ways to Stop Worrying and start living. And what he talks about within his framework that uses almost like think of the worst possible thing that can happen. So when you think this conversation, Lau your mind to visit that worst place, what is the worst scenario, because anything more than that anything less of an impact than that, that isn’t that worst case scenario is a success. You’ve done well. And also know that this is a skill to develop. So if it’s something you’ve been putting off, we’ve got a framework to share with you today. So that you can start to take action. And if you are someone that finds challenging conversations really uncomfortable, you’re certainly not alone. So the types of conversations be giving sensitive feedback to a member of your team, it might be calling out behaviour and language is not acceptable. It could be reasserting boundaries with other areas of business where they’re trying to push work on you that actually doesn’t sit with you. It might be pushing back to your boss when poor expectations are unrealistic, and you need to reprioritize So, research has shown that 80% of workers are worried about leaving at least one scary conversation where conversation only to have but they are dreading. And there was a survey in America and the stats are really really quite stark, but just shows that one in four people put off having that scary conversation for six months, one in 10 put off having that conversation for an entire year. And another one in 10 admits avoiding the conversation for more than two years. So if we break that down a little bit more, not having those conversations and carrying all of that with you is really counterproductive. might mean that you avoid that person might mean that you go If you go in a different directions, you don’t have to have that conversation with them. So 50% Avoid the person at all costs, changing meetings and work routine. So 50% 37% dance around the scary topic, whenever they speak to the person in question 37% consider quitting their job or taking a different job to avoid the conversation, I’ll just say that again. 30% of people surveyed, considered quitting their job or taking a different job to avoid the conversation, and 11% quit their job rather than having the conversation. So really, for you, as a leader, you’re a role model, and you can show others how to have those challenging conversations become a real force for good to challenge what isn’t acceptable to change the organisation. And if it helps to frame it, it’s not you’re not being challenged for the sake of it, you’re helping to create a safe and open and inclusive culture. So you leading by example, is going to have a huge impact. And why do people avoid it? what’s at the heart of it? So we’ve mentioned already about women and frameworks we’ve kind of grown up with and being that good girl wants to toe the line want to fit in not to cause any trouble. But as everyone, every single person, have probably the seven fears from the research that I’ve done, where I’m why they avoid confrontation. So first of all, it’s a fear of confrontation is how’s it going to feel? What’s going to be sad? What’s going to happen? How am I going to react within that? The next one, then is fear of judgement. So what will someone think of me? Will they think less of me? Will our relationship change completely? Am I thinking the wrong thing? Third one is fear rejection. So that person going through that challenging conversation with that person, then the fear of being rejected? So the fear of not then being accepted by that person, fear of offending? So am I going to say the wrong thing? If it’s a very sensitive subject, am I going to say the wrong word? Or am I going to make the whole situation worse, the next one, then is fear of abandonment, so almost that you are going to be abandoned by that person. So they’re no longer be a support. So you’ve lost their faith, you’ve lost their trust. Another one is around the fear of your own power. And actually, if you can do that, and have those challenging conversations, where does it lead to, you just step into your own power is almost a sense, you’re scared of owning more power and having more of an impact. And then the third one is fear of not being liked, which, again, is hugely strong for women, because the social part of our brain is so much bigger than women proportionately than it is for men. So those are the reasons why we tend to avoid these situations and the conversations that are challenging or confrontational potentially. And for me, it just kind of blows my mind 11% of people would rather leave their job than have the conversation. And running out of a role. And running away from something is never the same energy as consciously stepping into something new that is just for you. So just really think about where you are, now that you’re not alone, know that there’s a whole framework, societal framework sits behind how you’re potentially feeling. And then also know that as all those seven fears, why we as people just avoid that confrontation. So you’re certainly not alone. So what are the steps, so we’ve got six steps to take you through today are seven steps to help you create and structure and prep for a potentially challenging or difficult conversation. So the first one is preparation. So just thinking about setting up the meeting, thinking about the environment that you want to be in thinking about going back to the facts, and what’s actually happened rather than the emotions and how you’re feeling, we’re not going to lose that. But we want to be very specific on the facts and things that have happened. So the preparation, so think about how you might feel, thinking about where they might be coming from putting yourself in their shoes, and just preparing yourself for having that conversation. So there’s a practical, what, and where, and how. And then there’s also looking at the situation and what’s happened and what’s led you to hear thinking about your language. So the second step then is to think from their perspective. So having some empathy with that person, putting yourself into their shoes. So it might be that they’re having a challenging time at home, it might be that there’s something that they’re struggling with as a skill. It could be that it’s something that they find, really challenging to talk about. So think about it from their perspective. The next step then would also be really active listening. So active listening is where you’re not distracted, you’re not thinking about something else. You’re not jumping on to your next point, but you’re just sat taking it all in, pausing for breath, not let yourself just be in reaction mode and really listening and even taking notes if you need to just active active in the moment, listening and when really engaging with what is their tone, what is their energy, how is their body language, and really sensing what is what is behind the words as well. Next step then is have a goal but flex or have a goal for the conversation, but also be willing to flex or have a goal, whether it’s, let’s get to an agreed next step, it might be that the goal is as simple as understand each other’s perspective. It could be that the goal is, and this isn’t about winning. This isn’t that you’ve lost if your perspective isn’t the one that’s taken forward, either. It’s really setting a clear goal, but also be willing to flex. So what are you willing to compromise on? Where are you willing to get to to meet in the middle? The next one, then is really around supporting yourself. So knowing that, actually, this is something that you’ve been putting off that, you know, that would potentially be difficult, so just really supporting yourself with it. So take care of you. So at what point do you need to potentially say that’s enough for today? At what point do you need to again, take control back of the conversation and get it back? On the right path? At what point do you share how you might be feeling so really, to support yourself and know, it’s a big thing to go through, and there’s a lot of emotion around it, and really take care of yourself and try not to take things personally, this is one person’s view in one’s narrow, you don’t need to then wear the label of what they’re saying. So take care of yourself. And also know after the conversation, you might feel quite tired, you might feel like you’ve been through the wringer a bit that there’s been a very emotional day. And that’s all okay, that’s perfectly natural, perfectly normal. So we’ve done the prac. We’ve thought about their perspective, we’ve set a goal, but we’ve flexed it, we’ve been active listening, we’ve supported ourselves. And then when we get towards the end the conversation just thinking about the sharing and brainstorming ideas and next steps. So you sharing some of your ideas, but also encouraging that other person, you know, what can we do next? What do you think is the next step? What would work for you? What feel great for you? What do you see is where we should go next, I’m really open to your ideas and brainstorm those solutions, brainstorm a next step. And then the final point is, within that meeting, agree a clear and concise next step. So don’t leave it open to reputation. Don’t leave it open to we will see. But the brain loves clarity, especially when under pressure, especially when in reaction mode. So to support someone that might feel a bit, it’s a bit of a challenging conversation with them. Really think about a next step and really agree that next step, and who’s going to take what action. And this again, isn’t about winning, it’s not about beating the other person. It’s really about thinking, actually, with the goal that we set, what’s our next step to get that. And again, agreeing a timeframe being specific, who’s focused on what action, what’s going to happen. So you’ve got that clarity, you’ve got that consistency, and you’ve got a clear next step. So again, you’re just taking the grey swirly massive feelings, you might be feeling getting very, very specific. Those are the key steps in those challenging conversations. So then the prep, we’ve thought about their perspective, we’ve had that empathy, we set a goal, but we flex, we’ve been an active listener, taking care of ourselves, we’ve looked at and brainstorm solutions, and we’ve identified a clear next step. So that is a great framework to use. I would also add to that just sense the other person’s as part of that active listening and empathy sensitive a person’s emotion and do ask yourself like, is it the right time to have that meeting? How are they feeling that day? What’s going on for them that day? And just, you know, be open and honest, is this the right time to do this, if you feel they’re really reacting if they’re getting very emotional. And also just remember, getting what I talk about a lot on this podcast is around that human style leadership is showing care and connection for someone. So it’s very rare that someone goes out to make your job more difficult or to really impact on you in a negative way. So just have the have that intention, or know that there was a good intention, probably at the heart of what they did, even if it wasn’t quite the right way. So just trust and know, most people want to do good, most people are doing good, it might just be a scenario where it hasn’t quite worked. So those are my top tips for challenging conversations. So if you are facing one now, do take action on it. Don’t let it be something that you carry around with it. And actually what you find is when most people come out of those meetings, when I’m coaching clients through a potentially challenging conversation, never as bad the it’s going to be the worry is almost worse than the actual doing and just split out the data and the drama as well. So that’s always a great tool to use. So drama is the stories that playing out what am I making it mean versus the data of what’s actually happened? So I can be very overdramatic, I’m very sensitive person. And I can make things seem huge when they’re really not. So just have that in your back pocket is another tool to use. And if you need someone there for support, just think about who that could be what you want from them, and they’re just there to support you. They’re just there to just be a supportive person that review or what do you want their role to be? So that’s it really and know that this is a skill, this is something to develop. Again, it’s not just you become a leader, and all these skills there. And if as a woman, you’re that having that sense of oh, gosh, you know, who am I to cause trouble? Who am I to say the things, who am I to speak out, just know that that’s a framework that we, this generation is very much, it is very loud, and it is very strong. And know that actually, just having that confidence to know the structure sitting behind what could be a challenging or difficult conversation, and then start going out trying it on adaptive structure for what you need, trust yourself, do the preparation, be in the moment with that person, have that empathy, and then map out a clear next step. So that’s it for today’s show. I hope that’s been really, really helpful. I would love to know what you think if there’s anything that works for you around challenge conversations or things that really don’t work for you do drop me a message, I’d love to hear more. If this is something that you’re finding difficult, you as a leader, do drop me a message about how I can support you with my one to one coaching, or if this is something that you would love people across your organisation to have more support with. Again, drop me an email, and I can share how I can support you as an organisation. All my details are in the show notes, and I can’t wait to hear from you. So thank you for listening today. And I will speak to you and hear from you on the next podcasts. Thanks so much. Bye. i Is Nick here, I just want to take a moment just to say thank you for listening. When I’m sat recording the podcast in the deepest depths of Cornwall, it’s incredible to think that is reaching women across the world in 30 different countries and we have 1000s of downloads a month. So thank you so much for being part of that. And being part of the audience means well to me, that I do want to grow this audience, I would love you to help me reach more women like you so that we can really drive positive change in the corporate world. So you can do that one of three ways. First of all, you can subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. As always, and new episodes always delivered straight to your inbox. You can review the podcast and leave us a rating. And the more ratings we have, we also got the podcast charts. And finally you can just share a favourite podcast with a peer with a colleague or on your social media. So I would love you to do that. Thank you for all your help. I can’t wait for what’s next