Nicola: [00:00:00] welcome to female leaders on fire podcast. I’m your host. I’m Nicole Buckley. And I work with women at the top in corporate organizations, helping them to find their fire. And I’m recording this introduction states. Introduce this podcast episode, this was an incredible one. I’ve had some incredible guests recently, and I love how the.

Challenge they prompt and they really inspire my thinking. And I kind of got a hit list of women and men that I’d like to speak to. So if there’s anyone you would like to add to that, do drop me an email details when the show notes, but today’s guest is Anita . Anita is the fierce coach and I’ve known Nisa for a couple of years.

And we, we were kind of in the [00:01:00] same online world and, uh, Nisa shares really openly her experiences of being a woman in a male dominated organization, a woman who works in a. A male dominated organization, bulls. So male dominated area and her experience as a woman, as a mum, as someone from a minority backgrounds and just really her insights and her honesty just hugely resonated with me.

And I think there’s some really. Huge lessons and learnings. He’s take away that you can just really start to think about just prompting some thinking around the biases. You might carry it, start to have blame or feel guilty or battle like you’re being judged, not a tool, but just really to understand that the experience that the majority won’t understand the experience of the minority.

So. You know, just in really invites. Think about today as you put your, as you listen to today’s episode, just to put yourself in someone else’s shoes, whatever their background, whatever [00:02:00] their agenda, however, they identify whatever the education, whatever their experience, just put yourself in their shoes for a moment, just to really, so that we’re all leading with empathy or leading with understanding.

And we can all be a little bit vulnerable rather than making assumptions. So Nita was an incredible. Um, like I said, super honest and open as she always is, but always just making you think and challenging your thinking a little bit, which absolutely brilliant. So I hope you get a lot from today’s episode and yeah, I would love to know any feedback that you have and we now have SpeakPipe set up and we’ll add that to all the show notes.

So you can drop me a message. You can either ask me a question. Or you can leave me some feedback and we can include that on the podcast. And if you want to remain anonymous, absolutely. Just let me know. So yeah. So super exciting and enjoy today’s episode. Bye. Hello and welcome to female leaders on fire.

And I am [00:03:00] your host. I am Nicola Buckley, and I am the coach who works women at the very top of organizations, helping them to find that fire. So that passion, that purpose, psych excitement. So can have more impact, more influence and income as a result, but also be a real force for good. Um, driving change in the corporate world and much needed change.

So I’m really excited today because I’ve got a good friend of mine and needs have occurred with me today. I’m just going to introduce her. Then she’s going to introduce herself and we are going to be talking all about today. Just how to create cultures of belonging through inclusive leadership. So I focus on inclusive leadership through helping the women that I work with and the people around them to really be who they truly are.

And that obviously helps with just that understanding of other people. So I do a lot of work on neuroscience to how does the brain work, so that to start to bring together that inclusive leadership. So I focused on that gender parity, but it’s more than that, that inclusive [00:04:00] leadership needs to be demonstrated from the top to then flow down through the entire business so that everyone has that sense of belonging so that everyone has a sense that they’re all moving in the same direction and just really, really important.

Start to break down those barriers. Because otherwise we’re going to be just facing what we see day in, day out. And what I experienced through the women that I work with, which is really the, if you’re not part of the majority, you have this experience of the minority. Um, and what we need to be doing is just opening minds.

Opening hearts, just start reading inclusive way of working. Super super excited for today. Um, so just to introduce a Nita, she is a misfit inclusion specialist, which I absolutely love that title. And she’ll explain more about this in a minute. She’s an ICF accredited leadership and career coach. So she had the same amazing qualifications, me and a master’s qualified project manager have over a decade of experience in the male dominated industry of railway construction.

So she’s gone, she’s gone straight into a very male dominated area. She’s [00:05:00] used to being the only one that. Like her as an Indian woman. And that wasn’t a problem until she realized that she became a manager, that she was being treated differently because she was a woman who was leading and she became aware of the prejudice and discrimination that we’re now affecting her career path.

And. You’ve already started to knock her ambition. And then she became a mum and then that led to another series of blocks. And we have Lizzie, I think this week, another podcast episode, Lizzie Martin is talked about how to support women coming back into work after having children. So that’s an episode to listen to if that resonates with you, but she reclaimed our ambition for a career that works for her.

And she’s now working for herself. And she coaches those who have traditionally not felt like they fit in. And helping them to embrace them misfit leading in their own style to cheer career success on their terms. I’m working with leaders in organizations to be more inclusive and create cultures of blogging.

Oh, I’ve got goosebumps Nita

Anita: already. I love all of that. Thank you so [00:06:00] much, Nick. I’m just so excited to be here as well and loving your podcasts and the topics you bring up and the work you do around gender parity and inclusion. So, yeah, I’m really excited to be having this conversation with you

Nicola: or meet, say, retails you on my.

A little while. So I’m excited to lights if my money should get you in there already. So can you just add to that? And I love the misfit inclusion specialist, but just share a little bit about your story and how, how you came to be doing the amazing work that you’re doing now. That’s, you know, I see it every day.

I don’t know. This is so, so needed. So kind of, what’s the story that brought you to here?

Anita: Yeah, absolutely. So, as you explained, I, I was a project manager in the railway. Um, of course it’s a very male-dominated industry, so it was no surprises when I was around a lot of men, but actually there were women around me.

And it was only when I kind of stepped into that management role. And I was actually leading a [00:07:00] team of all women, which was like unheard of in the railway. But then I started to have certain experiences and certain judgments, both towards me leading this team of women, which I was like, Uh, talking point and we can talk about gender and how we, how we don’t bat an eyelid when we’ve got teams where men.

So I haven’t seen it as this, that we are these trailblazers, but then we were hearing, you know, comments that were in the way that we talked about, um, the expectations of how we would be as a team. They weren’t very nice, even though we were actually a really great team, but that the gender judgment was really bad.

You know, we under nickname, which very much gender related. Um, so it’s, you know, experienced in these things for this team that OSI in that we’re trailblazing. And then essentially being pulled back into, you know, the gutter of, you know, misogyny and, uh, me, I started to understand what an impact that would have.[00:08:00]

All of our careers as women, you know, being in this environment. And I started looking up words for role models. And this was the point where I realized, oh, I don’t really have an a, like in this really big organization that I was in that my line of sight to the management team were all white middle-aged men.

Um, the leaders in the team were all white middle-aged men. Um, there were a few senior women, but they tended to be in. In HR roles, but they weren’t generally in these day-to-day project delivery type roles. So, yeah. So then I experienced a whole series of other stories and other experiences where my agenda was really rather than, and there were judgements about how I played the, you know, the names that I get called, um, sometimes in a.

That’s a compliment type way. And you’re like, oh, it’s it. Um, yeah.

Nicola: And nodding away because yeah, I could absolutely relate to that.

Anita: Um, absolutely. I wasn’t the [00:09:00] only one who had these experiences as I started to be more open with it. I really. The women around me who are in similar positions who are having these experiences and, you know, get, you know, various experiences.

Um, none of it was surprising. And then when I, after I had my baby, I came back to work. I decided to actually leave the organization I was in. And I sat out trying to find something that was flexible. I’d already been doing flexible working before I had my child, but it was really hard in the industry that I was in.

It wasn’t the norm. And wasn’t impossible, but it was challenging and it was way more challenging than it should have been. And then when I did find a role by then I had a whole nother heap of experiences and eventually I just decided. But it was enough. And by this time actually I’d start a defined career coaching.

And I started to have been to workshops and, and [00:10:00] the conversations I have never had in my career before I started to think about things like values and what were my values, what did I want to achieve with my career? What was my passion, rather than just being on the hamster wheel, as you describe it now.

Oh, you know, just being in this environment and thinking, this is the only way. And I really discovered that my passion was for inclusion, particularly for gender equality at that time. And that’s broadened out now because I think we, we need to have the other conversations of equality as well. But yeah, all those, all those experiences, they weren’t just my own.

They were. All the other women around me, all the other people that had, you know, for whatever reason, they felt like they didn’t fit in. And sometimes that can be man as well, because they don’t have the same leadership style as, as what’s expected. And so, yeah, I really have this mission to change that because that’s not good for anyone.

I’m just, I’m just fed up of seeing people who [00:11:00] are marginalized and, you know, just have, it’s been pushed down. But not being able to, you know, have the full influence that they’re capable of and, and live up to their potential. And, and actually it has this real big mental health toe and burnout effect.

And actually it still is also not good for the people that perpetuate these cultures because they are also, you know, feeling the pressure. Of conforming. So it’s not good for anyone. And in the railway in construction in particular, obviously it’s dominated by men and, and in certainly in the leadership roles, it does tend to be white middle-aged men, but in, in construction, we also see that it’s got the highest rate of suicide among.

So, you know, the culture, these cultures can be really toxic and they’re not good for anyone. Yeah. Yeah,

Nicola: absolutely. Oh my gosh. So much that I want to, I want to dive in and see, but if we could just start, we can go back to where you were talking about and I resonate with this hugely just [00:12:00] what you were saying.

That term that you use around gen gender judgment. And I remember back to my, my corporate days, cause I, I felt like there was part of me that was judged on my work and what I delivered. Um, did I meet my objectives? And that was, you know, that’s fine. And measure me, judge me on my performance. That’s absolutely part of the process of working in the corporate world.

But then I felt. As a woman in the corporate world, I was then also judged on, am I wearing that tight pony, neck jumper? What’s my hand, like, have I put a weight? What’s my body shape. And just, I felt like there was a whole nother array of things that I was judged to games. Your focused on your performance, you’ll focus on delivery, but actually there was all these external things.

And I remember going into one, one particular meeting where you like a marketing director’s meeting and you would take your, your marketing campaigns in to get signed off and, and take them through the process. And then it would [00:13:00] kind of go on from there. So as part of that side of process, which was fine, but there was a very senior member.

Um, of a particular business and every time a younger female would go in, he would get very red. He would get very sweaty and he was known for just staring at you, which then when you’re trying to be in that performance part, but you’re actually being judged against how you look is really, really difficult.

Can you just share a bit more about that gender judgment and what your experience was as well?

Anita: Yeah, I’m fleeing in agreement neck. And, you know, I’ve had some of those experiences myself, or I’ve spoken to other women who have their own version of this and absolutely, you know, and I very much thought there was certain ways to be as a leader.

And I’d tried to emulate some of what I saw in my leaders. And I actually had some really good leaders. I’m really lucky. And the health that had some really terrible. Yeah, so I did. Um, so it didn’t try to emulate the terrible ones, but I tried to emulate what I saw as, [00:14:00] um, was good in, you know, leaders that I respected and felt they were empathetic leaders.

So I would emulate that and actually. Some of that was dead because I was like, you know, learning from role models. But other times I still also felt like I was, you know, trying to be like them and not necessarily, you know, over reflection now I wasn’t necessarily being myself as a leader. I was trying to be like them because that worked.

But, um, what I would find is that I was emulating some of those behaviors. Um, That. Yeah, I was getting judgments for it. So I was like very much important to me. It was about holding my team to account because that was very much how my line manager before had been, he was very methodical and thorough and, um, you know, would have less.

So I tried to emulate that with, with my team as well. And actually at this point I had a misconception that we should treat everybody the same. So we’re very much try to do that with my team. [00:15:00] And you know what I wasn’t perfect. So I can say about openly, like, you know, since then I’ve learned, but I was still being a good leader.

I still, um, being at least a good manager. And part of that was still holding my team to account, which of course is really important. But then I’d start realizing that by me doing that, I’d get called names. I was like, I was told I was patronizing and I was like, oh gosh. So why is it that I’m patronize it?

When I’m doing this same thing that my son had been doing and he was never patronized. And yet I am, I’d really reflect on there. So I’d really be like, okay, what do I need to change? How do I need to change my leadership style, me that I could fit in, um, you know, be an effective leader, be an effective manager.

And, and you’ve actually got that pressure of performing, as you’ve said, and you’ve got the added pressure of I’m being judged for how I’m performing. Um, I was getting this feedback from who [00:16:00] was now my current line manager, because the past that I was managing had gone directly to them. And it was just this weird toxic environment as it turned out.

Because of the relationships and personalities, but actually I was having a lot of what I can now see is misogyny from the person that I was managing. And that was I’m filtering up to my boss. It was coming back down to me and the person that was managing was another woman. And she would open these age to me that, um, you know, I don’t really respect you as a manager because you’re a woman because of your age.

Because I was not much older than her and she’d make a pointed thing to say, oh, but it’s not your race. It’s not because you’re Indian and I’d be like, oh, what am I meant to do? Yeah.

Nicola: Well, thank you so much. You’ll stay behind. And it’s quite to be, you know, it’s fine to talk about the fact that I’m, I’m a woman and I’m Indian, but actually it’s so kindly.[00:17:00]

Forgive me almost for those things.

Anita: It’s like, I’m willing to be. Yeah. I’m willing to be prejudiced in these ways. That’s one. I don’t want to admit to this one. Definitely not. This one

Nicola: would be the worst one. And that’s where you got approved for that.

Anita: I know that would be too far. Um, but yeah, it was just, um, in the same environment where I was getting feedback that it was patronizing.

I also would look at my boss in this, in, in meetings and I’d be like, Oh, it’s okay for him to slap on the desk when he’s angry. Yeah. I would never think that was a suitable behavior to be at work. And yet I’m the one who’s getting judged on how I talk to me. This is, this is very strange and it took, and I did, I tried all sorts of different things.

I tried, I reflected those being coached at the time. Um, yeah, I was. I checked the pressure on me to say, okay, what can I do differently? What can I do to win around these people? And what can I [00:18:00] do about changing my leadership style so that it suits them? And absolutely that’s the point in being adaptable?

Um, there is, but I was losing myself in this and I was at the point in that I reflected. Do you know what, and it was at the back of my mind all the way along. I’m like, is this agenda thing. And like in hindsight, like absolutely this person that I’d managed before, it had only ever been managed by white middle aged men who had.

But never held her to account cause, um, cause she didn’t need it to be for whatever reason. And so therefore me coming in trying to manage her as I saw professional at the time and you know, was it, uh, you know, appropriate as a manager to hold people to account for that performance as well. I was just getting a lot of backlash and it got to the point where.

I was told to change her performance rating and actually make it better than I felt it was. And she’d been given a fair, fair rating by with being [00:19:00] pushed in this corner. And it was a big, what I realized, um, value misalignment. I was like, I’ve been put in a position where I’m being told to like compromise.

All of my value is, um, I’m experiencing this misogyny, uh, I’m being judged. Um, And that’s almost acceptable because nobody ever said that it was very public knowledge, how she felt about me. Yeah. And, um, um, how it was because I was a woman and my age and it was all on me to change. And when it came to their speak values class, I realized I couldn’t go on anymore.

I was in tears as I was writing into my boss and being like, do you know what I would, I’ve got to the point where my values are so conflicted that I’m not going to change the performance rating. If you then choose to that’s up to you. But I would be willing, I would walk away from this job if things don’t change.

Um, but through these kinds of experiences, [00:20:00] I had also been taken on other leadership roles I’d actually been put on, um, I’ve actually been put on the top senior team in our department. And it was very much because I was a woman because they realized that they didn’t have any women at that level. So they were like, okay, with all my psych,

Nicola: obviously you’re incredibly capable, but it was more like, almost like a tokenism as well.

It was

Anita: tokenism. Absolutely. And I had that decision to take, or do I do this even though. Uh, no it’s time for this at, is it better that I do it and then still represent, um, you know, for me, I was also representing the project managers. Can you drive more

Nicola: change? Can I drive more change in that? Suck it up.

Cause it’s difficult. Cause it’s tokenism, but actually you can drive more change in that, you know, in a more powerful, more senior level.

Anita: Yeah. Is it better to be at the table? Or not be at the table. And so I decided I’d rather be at the table. Um, I did that role for a year. I [00:21:00] managed influence that and change is probably not as far as I wanted, but I implement that and changes.

And, um, the feedback that I got was that I, um, you know, I’ve done more than they expect it, and I’ve had a bigger impact, but then actually at the point where I started to see, okay, what’s next for my career? How can I put my head above the parapet and say, okay, I feel like, you know, I’m doing a leadership role.

How can I actually be fairly compensated for doing a leadership role on top of my day job? So is there more than all the male project managers, because they didn’t have to do this extra leadership job. I was facing misogyny. From like, you know, my, my managers I’m the people as well. And at least one person knows where who’s working for me.

So it was in this really stressful position, but I handled it as best as I could. And I also found out that some of the male project managers. He had got promoted after me was getting paid more than me. I was like, oh wow. This is a, this is a wonderful mix. I started to think about, okay. So how could I work towards [00:22:00] that next level?

And how could I get promoted? I’m doing leadership elements of my role. How could that be more formalized? And at the point that I spoke to the seniors in the team and I said, look, I want to, I want to be on that career path. What do I need to do to that there? Around. I literally got told I don’t have enough experience.

And I was like, oh, how come? Some of the senior people in the team have less experience than me? And I was like, oh, what do I do with that? Yeah. I was like, what do I even do with that? Like, I, that’s not feedback I can even use. You’re just telling me to get more experienced when actually I’ve got that experience.

And I just had nothing meaningful to work with. And in the same way, as when I got cold patronized and I asked for feedback. I didn’t, I couldn’t get anything meaningful out of it. It was like, well, I’ve just been told you patronized. So I was like, can you give me an example? And they couldn’t. Um, so at this point I just checked out.

I was like, I don’t know what else I can do. I don’t know. [00:23:00] Like I have no, I’ve got no path to go on. I’m still committed to my career. I was still committed to my role, but certainly. I, I changed how I worked and yeah, I know that that was the point I checked out. Cause I could just put it, see the path. I couldn’t see the point anymore.

So I mean a stage I stayed for several years, but I did different roles. Um, but I never, I never applied for a promotion until the point. I decided that I was going to leave or get promotion, which was like five years later after I had my babies. Uh, ju

Nicola: sadly, it’s not, I don’t think it’s uncommon that you.

You’ve done all the right things and you’ve taken on more responsibility. We know from the stats that women generally get promoted, more performance and potential men tend to be on potential. You know, what, what seen in them and women have to be in that constant performance, improving and delivery. And top of that, you’re getting paid less on top of that.

You’ve asked for promotion, there’s also stats around women [00:24:00] are given more vague feedback than men. Um, and that contributes to. Well, w what four things do I need to do to get to the next level, tell me, and I will do them. And I remember they given being given fake feedback as well. I was given that awful thing of like, raise your profile.

You needs to be more visible. And then I would do those things and do do PR like make myself be part of projects that will give me that go back in six months and show that. And it’s like, well, actually now you need to just, sometimes you need to manage your reactions to things or you need to manage your emotions.

And it was, it was always so vague. Cause like you said, you asked us, give me specific examples so that I can understand this and you know, reflect on my behavior. I think how I can change it. And there was, it was never there. Yeah, we’ve gone through so many women get to that point where it’s like, I, you know, get clients that come to me at that point.

When I am at this very senior level, I know that I can do more. I know that I can [00:25:00] have more impact, more influence. I know that I can change and drive change in this business. But I can deliver my job with my eyes closed. That’s all fine. My team. I look after I make sure that they’re okay. And I just really focus on that development, but there’s hope there’s this whole of a battle that we’re fighting.

It’s just around everyday facing that vague feedback or a man get promoted or men get paid more. There’s almost like this invisible battle. Yeah, it’s just like, it’s just exhausting. And then we wonder why women, the steps aren’t really changing because when we get to point most it’s not worth it. I’m going to go to a different organization with a different culture, or I’m going to, I can’t get a promotion here.

So I’m going to take a promotion and another company and those, those, those inherent experiences of. What still driving that gender, that gender pay gap, which is still 136 years. So it’s not, it’s not our children that will experience it. It might be our children’s children [00:26:00] or more likely to be our children’s children, children.

So we’re still three generations away. I just, I think you’ve articulated probably the experiences of so many. So many women. And I want to just talk a little bit about when you were talking about that minority kind of versus majority as well. And if we, we already know that if the leadership is set in it in a certain way, and if it’s that leadership of middle-aged white men, which is, we know it’s in a stat, supports it, that they don’t understand, they don’t experience, they don’t have that lived experience the minority.

When I say the minority mean like age or race or gender or. You know, whatever, whatever makes you different. Can you just say a little bit more about that and just that experience the majority it’s not, I don’t see it as a problem because I don’t experience that.

Anita: Yeah. I mean, absolutely. So I mean, just even some of the examples that I’ve given, you know, there were days, like there were days, weeks, there were months where I’d be getting on [00:27:00] doing their job, doing my job, doing a good job.

And absolutely you’ve described all those things were a battle. There were absolutely, you know, periods of time where I didn’t feel it as much. And then something would happen. Somebody would make a comment and then you’d be like, oh, that’s how you see me. Oh, I, I thought I fit in and I don’t actually. So, you know, for the example, like they had never crossed my mind that the judgment that I was being faced by the person that I was managing was because I was Indian until she mentioned it.

And then I was like, oh, so it could be.

Nicola: Yeah. And it’s a whole different thing that I hadn’t even considered.

Anita: Yeah. Yeah. And some of the things that you got told about that, you know, you’re too emotional. I have that as well. So I’d be, you know, I was too emotional and not, you know, I, I cry when I’m angry and so I’d be crying in meetings and, um, then you think [00:28:00] about, okay, so how would this be judged?

Will I be taken less seriously because I’m crying, but actually that’s just my passion and that’s, um, and actually. Any more emotional than other people that are here. It’s just, they express their emotions by banging on the table and shouting

Nicola: that’s a, that’s a go getter. That’s just, you know, passionate about that work and go get and.

It’s a woman it’s like, oh, it’s probably over. Emotion was probably not for hair. Probably not for work.

Anita: Yeah. And I, you know, and I’d get called yet again, the series of names I’d be like, so you have a sensitive flower, aren’t you? Oh yeah.

Nicola: corporate world. It’s a bit

Anita: come for us. Exactly what we’re feeling. Shouldn’t be. Yes.

Nicola: That’s probably most of the population

Anita: of the world. Yeah, exactly. So you’re then you’re what you’re actually, you know, emotional about, or you’re angry about this real [00:29:00] valid issue is glossed over because actually that’s not the point that’s being discussed anymore.

It’s your reaction to it? So then you start again. Eva start questioning yourself. I got to the point where I understood this is me. I’m not, you know, I’m still, um, and this is not something that I need to hide anymore, but it, but it does affect how other people see you. But I mean, even, even then you start making the east can still start making the changes.

They’re just slow sometimes. And in toxic cultures, it’s difficult. Like one of the cultures I was part of, it was actually the most racially diverse. Uh, team I’d ever been part of, but it was also the most toxic. And again, we, yeah, we had, um, because we can have diversity, but if you haven’t got inclusion, You’re not getting any of the benefits of, um, of the diversity.

And you want me to just you’ve

Nicola: you’ve, you’ve got kind of the numbers and the stats [00:30:00] and use tech. We’ve got diversity, but like you said, less, that, that belonging culture where you allow those differences and you, you know, you learn and you educate yourself, but you allow people to be who they truly are and bring all of that work.

It’s it’s well done. You know, creating that diversity, but you’re not really living and breathing that what’s at the heart of diversity, which is inclusion.

Anita: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I, I saw racism quite overtly in that team. You know, there were people that, who in other teams would be expressing. You know, doing an amazing job, but here they were ridiculed, um, you know, put down in front of other people.

I was underrepresented in this role because I was a mum, you know, there wasn’t many other mums in this team. I think there were maybe a couple. And so therefore, you know, I had a young baby at the time, so therefore, when I needed to be flexible for those reasons that you do [00:31:00] with the young child at times, You know, there were judgements around that.

And I saw my messages the other day and it was very much about like this presenteeism culture. And I was like, gosh, I, you know, it really brought you back home. It was like, Anita, you need to be more present in the office because of the ways, you know, you’ll be forgotten or something. And I’m like, oh, I’m still doing the job.

Like some days from home. But, yeah. So I suppose the, just coming back to the question, right. Obviously I can’t talk for all aspects of being underrepresented, but it’s, you know, w we’re faced with often the same type of leadership, which is often alpha male, but type behaviors. Um, often white middle-aged men, but even with some of them, people that didn’t fit in that boat, The behaviors have become quite toxic.

So I’m not just saying it was white middle-aged men that were toxic in this team. They weren’t, it was coming from all different walks of life, but it was because of the culture that had been created was [00:32:00] quite toxic. And so people felt they had to fight to survive. Um, you know, that those tearing other people down to make yourself look like you were that alpha male dominant type of leader who.

Um, another people that would be a winner. Oh gosh.

Nicola: Yeah. And I think it’s pretty interesting that you’ve experienced, like being in the minority for different reasons, your age and your race and your gender, but then also at times being a mom. And I know at times for me being of my age now I’m 44 and I, I still want children and we’re kind of going for a process at the moment, but it’s almost like I’m excluded because I’m not a mum.

And I think it’s that, it’s that the way I love said. Um, just to short hair to go just about, you can have diversity, but that doesn’t mean that there’s inclusion. So can you just say a little bit more about that? And some of the misconceptions leaders may have about inclusivity and just what that difference is between the [00:33:00] diversity you might have in a team versus the actual sense of include inclusive.

Anita: Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, I’ve given a couple of examples where, you know, I actually was part of a team of all women. So there were women in the team and that in more recent example, that was, you know, racial diversity in the teams that was part of, but neither of those environments were inclusive.

Although I did my best with me leading a team of women, um, to create that inclusion battery, the environment that we were in, in PAF by there were lots of judgments to. There wasn’t that, that wider inclusion, so we can absolutely have diversity. And sometimes we have, you know, senior people who think, you know what, we’ve got a woman around the table.

So that’s enough. I was invited around that table, even though I didn’t have that most senior position. And that was enough that ticked the box. And, uh, I, you know, I would sometimes say, oh, I’m in gen 10. So there you go. You tick two boxes now. [00:34:00] Yeah, I can imagine you saying

Nicola: that on their face.

Anita: It’s just like dropping.

I’m like, oh, look at the floor. Um, yeah, but absolutely. No, it’s like the idea of, well, we ticked a box, but then what goes through people’s mind are, oh, so am I here as a token, nobody wants to be a token. And you know, I know people that are really capable and then they’ve got promoted or they’ve been given an opportunity and they ask themselves.

Oh, yeah. Did I get that role because I’m a woman or because I’m black or because you know, all they do in it to take their diversity box and you know what, even if they have got measures, that mean you’re more likely to get an MTV because you’re a woman or because you’re bad, actually. You know what I’m cause we have so many barriers elsewhere.

Take it right. Just like, you know, take it, but that’s not why you’ve got the role. And even if that’s why you got the role, you know, you’re so capable. Fought through all the [00:35:00] barriers. Yeah. You can drive

Nicola: more change there as well. Right? So it’s almost like, well, I kinda, if I can get myself past that I can have so much more impact and influence, I can drive more positive change and I can, you know, really step into being that role model for people that look up to me and aspire to, to be in the same position.

So. Yeah. As much as it’s incredibly hard, if you feel like that, it’s still, it’s almost partly roll. It’s a step past that and get into the, I am a role model. Now I have have a responsibility to myself, my career, but also to inspire people that you don’t need to just be a certain person or race or age or gender to get to this level and just open, open people’s hearts and minds that, oh, I can do that.

I can get there. Of course I can get that. Because that’s opening the hearts and minds, half the battle to get past that earlier the earlier, you know, the hard parts of your career, where you’re just paying in the really hard, the [00:36:00] hard yards, and you’re really demonstrating your value and delivering constantly.

And you’re getting past that to get to the point where, and just opening your mind sight is a possible the art of the possible and seeing it can be done. And I think it’s almost becomes more. Not just about you. It’s about being that role model and really stepping into that. And a lot of the women that I work with, we spend a lot of time talking about, I want you, you know, I want to help you to be the leader in your way and in your own style with your own branded leadership.

And that’s, you know, that brings all of you into it, but there’s also who do you want to be as a role model? Because people are looking at looking to you every day. So do you want to be that role model of a leader who’s really impactful and influential and, but you know, is true and real. Do you want it to be that leader is, you know, feeling a bit frustrated a bit resentful can be quite reactive mainly because I burn out on exhausted and just feeling like they can’t be who they truly are.

Anita: Yeah, [00:37:00] absolutely. So I think absolutely we’re role models as well. And, you know, there’s a saying that, you know, if you can’t see it, you can’t be at, which is really powerful. Right. But also I think we also have a decision to make if we want to be in that position because. I like, you know, you’re right. We can influence change there.

And I want to see more women in leadership. I want to see more people of color and leadership. I want to see, you know, more representation of all sorts of people at leadership. And I think that’s what we need to drive cultures, but for an individual that’s also, if the culture is not right, if the culture isn’t right.

Of, uh, where actually you, you know, what, if we don’t have inclusion, we have, what I see is toxic cultures. Well, we have toxic cultures that is, you know, that toll on that one person is incredibly difficult. And I think that’s the challenge that we have with. You know, after that people then choose to leave these these organizations or, or [00:38:00] they put up with it and then, you know, they get burnt out or they have to change who they are.

They have to assimilate to fit in with the style of leadership. And then, you know, then that’s where sometimes we see, you know, that they’re not helping other people who are, are different and the best within, within the organization as well to step up because they’ve had to fight for everything that they, um, they’ve got.

So there are absolutely challenged. And I’m absolutely what we need then is yes, the person can be a role model and that’s wonderful, but we are, they need the support system around them because they themselves cannot just change that culture. And I often, I work with women who are in senior leaders, much like you, Nick, who are in these male-dominated industries and they can really take that burden of responsibility.

Oh, it’s them because they are the senior leader. One of the few in that position who are women or people of color for, or other aspects of their identity. And they, you know, take that role model role [00:39:00] really seriously, which is, which is amazing, but they can really take that burden responsibility on them to try and change the culture.

And if they aren’t being met with your support, then that’s really difficult for one person to change the culture.

Nicola: Absolutely. I see it every day. I just, I there’s a couple of clients, newer clients I’ve started working recently and that they are in that position of. Almost hunkering that I’ve been in the business world, I’ve got this great position and I can do my day job, my eyes close.

I’m getting more and more responsibility to my team is growing, but actually it’s such a choice. Do I want to really hunker down and put my energy into driving a culture? That’s pretty outdated is can be misogynistic or could be ages racist, or can I as one person change that and be the voice of dry, you know, be the owner of driving all of this.

Or am I going to be and wa if so, what toll is that going to take on me? [00:40:00] My health, my personal life, or do I want to actually think this has given me a great experience? But it can’t just be on me. Um, and I see that all the time and it becomes kind of heartbreak and see women just being like, you know, I just, I can’t do this anymore.

Or actually I’m just going to take over in the role that I’m in and I’m not going to be, I’m not gonna be the one that speaks out. I’m not gonna be the one that challenges because it just, it takes so much of me that I I’m the one I would love to see it. But if there’s not that support around me, I’m going to end up frustrated, resentful, burnt out and just, you know, I’m going to be the mum that yells at the kids because I’m exhausted.

I am going to be the absentee partner. I am going to be the dog mum that just, you know, I’m, I’m not enjoying

Anita: anything about this. Walk on the

Nicola: beach. I’m just, I just, I’m just exhausted. I don’t want to be here, which is, you know, just it’s too much. I think it is. It’s sad for me when I feel women have to be in that position of, oh my God, can I [00:41:00] get this, my heart and soul or anything less isn’t enough because that what it takes to drive change to.

Anita: Yeah, it’s way harder than it should be in certain organizations and unfortunately too many of them. Um, absolutely. And, and you kind of touched on the figures of, you know, how long it’s going to be till we get gender parity. And then actually then when we start considering all women’s. And, you know, women who have different aspects of their identity that are underrepresented, then it’ll be even longer.

And then if we consider, you know, the effect of the pandemic, which is mixed, you know, it’s Hudson positive impacts on remote working flexibility, but still there’s levels of resistance to that. But there’s also had a big toll on more women leaving the workforce and more women fit in the. The pain financially and career-wise of impacts of the pandemic.

So yeah, it’s a, it’s a [00:42:00] difficult time, I think. But I think the really good thing about now is I think there’s a lot more women, a lot more people, a lot more people of color, a lot more black people, a lot more narrow, diverse people. Um, a lot more disabled people who are. Saying that, you know what my values have really come home to me in this time.

I know what I’m capable of. I know what my boundaries are. I know what I’m not willing to take anymore. I couldn’t say you know, where they’re able to. It’s not always possible, but we’ve got a lot more people that are demanding. Better treatment and better workplace cultures and are willing to leave cultures that don’t work for them anymore.

And I think we’ve a generational change as well. People, you know, gen Z, you know, they’re demanding flexibility. So it’s a very, so there’s a lot of hope I fake, you know, the stats are quite damaging. But there is also this element of hope [00:43:00] with, with the changes and the, you know, individual changes, but also that these topics are more in our day to day conversations.

We are talking about race equality in a way that we were not talking about race equality two years ago, and there’s still a lot of work to be done around other aspects of identity as well. There’s still a lot of work to be done to achieve race equality and move past just talking about it to get meaningful action.

We’re also starting to have the conversation. The less mature, but around neurodiversity, around disability. So, you know, there is hope that it’s on more people’s agenda. Yeah. And I

Nicola: think, I think you’re absolutely right. And I think, I think it’s, it feels like, yeah, I think your word of hope is that it’s definitely one for me that I can sense now I can feel.

And I think for the women that I work with, just even though there’s difficult times, it feels like we’re coming out of that and I could feel everyone’s feeling quite exhausted, but I also feel [00:44:00] on the flip side of that, there is hope there have been big conversations about flexible working. And flexible working to support everyone.

This isn’t just about a mum working from home. This is about someone that’s very passionate about our hobby. This is about a mom that wants to spend more time at home with his family. This is whatever you need. It’s it’s actually, if, if, if it works with business perspective yes, of course. And it leads on to different conversations then having to have brave conversation about how do you support people with their mental health?

How do you support people that are in a diverse. And it’s just li like you said, some of those conversations are less mature, but actually we are starting to have those conversations and also starting to see some policy changes as well. So just, you know, support for people that have had miscarriages, for example, or support with people that are having fertility treatment.

It’s almost allowing when someone comes to work, they don’t then stop their entire past or life. The moment they log in, they’re a whole person. And actually, if we can support that [00:45:00] person, we have an element in their life that. And the chapter and that’s the focus of their life right now, then that’s whatever that is, that’s going to be the benefit.

And that’s, it’s almost for me embracing, being your, I don’t want to say authentic self, but being your real self being who you truly are at work, being able to support you with that, whatever that brings with it, of that’s around age or race or anything. It’s it’s. Be who you are at work and how do we support that is wider, wider context.

I think those conversations are starting now. Yeah, I think that’s beyond that. I, I have, I struggle with the time authentic leadership, because if we’re having to call it authentic leadership to me, it’s. It’s be yourself leaders, who you are lead with all the, you know, the black and the white and the gray and everything in between LIBOR, your brilliance and your boldness, but also the things that you, you’re not so strong app, all of that.

Okay. So in each, just to finish off, is there any, any final words that you have for our audience? [00:46:00] I think there’s so much in there already of absolute love

Anita: that. Thank you. So I think my take on this whole topic is that we are at the point where we can’t think of topics of diversity inclusion, quality equity, as optional Adams, they aren’t something we do extra in a business or, you know, in leading a team.

They aren’t extras. They aren’t things that can be taught out when, you know, budgets are tough. They aren’t things that we can give up on when it gets too hard. But actually we need to bake these in, at the heart of everything. We do all the decisions we’re taking. You need to have that lens of what does this mean for our team?

What, how can we create the culture that we, you know, we want, uh, where everybody can belong. Um, and we can get that genuine diversity so that we have. You know, all the benefits that that will bring, and it’s going to take conscious effort and action. We’re going to [00:47:00] have to be introspective. We’re going to listen.

We’re going to have to learn and do some learning along the way and have those bold conversations and take the actions. But let’s bake in include.

Nicola: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think in the corporate organization, she’ll have stats around the sport, this having that more inclusive culture, more, it must bring essentially a bottom line as well in terms of bringing more profitability into that business and having employees that stay longer.

So there’s not as high recruitment costs and recommend in that business to other people to join and just, I love, um, the Brittany Brown quote around to belonging. So. Where she talks about true belonging. I’ve got, I’ve got it in front of me. So I’m not just remembering that I’m cheap. Belonging is a spiritual practice of believing in belonging to yourself.

So deeply that you can share your most authentic self with the world and find sacredness in both being a part of something and standing alone in the wilderness [00:48:00] to belonging. Doesn’t require you to change who you are, correct. That it requires you to be who you are. So it’s that last line that I gives me goosebumps.

It doesn’t require you to change who you are, requires you to be here.

Anita: Yeah, I love that quote. And I think you’re the one that introduced it to me neck by absolutely love it. It says every week for that, doesn’t

Nicola: it? It just gives me goosebumps. Absolutely. Um, and three questions just to finishing off. So can you share with us a leader who’s inspired you for your.

Anita: Oh, that’s a really great question. Now this is where I’m looking at, like the female leaders and, um, the, actually what I’m going to do is, oh, okay. So at leader who has inspired me, I’m actually going to pick one of my mouth. Because I just haven’t heard enough female leaders or like person there who was willing to take a stand within to take the risks that come with talking about topics of inclusion and where he thought things weren’t [00:49:00] right.

Or where they in. Speak up for that within, you know, to take the risk of sometimes that would lead to backlash. Sometimes that would lead to judgments from more senior people to him. And in the way that he shaped his team’s objectives, he took a bold step to put inclusion in that when very much that isn’t something.

Would it be done in, in that particular organization? So, um, so yeah, I’m picking one of my mouth leaders who, yeah. Who I really respect. So it’s uh, yeah, my, my old boss, Colin prime. So they, in day,

Nicola: there we go. There we go. And I think to be really clear when we talk about. Any of these topics, it’s not about, we’re not blaming men.

We’re not, it’s not men hating on men. It’s not men versus women. It’s how this is a situation. And how do we drive this forward together? So as I love that there’s someone that he’s already that man who’s already that just like pushing this forward and just making it part of being a great leader. Second [00:50:00] question.

Is there someone or a podcast or someone that you follow that you could recommend to the audience? Oh,

Anita: that’s really good. So I am really enjoying Judy preference podcast. It’s called bigger than you. Yeah, of course. I love yours as well. Nick. Thank you. Um, but yeah, I’m really loving. Uh, podcast. Cause she’s, again, she thinks about how she’s bringing in the first speakers, um, covering lots of different topics, but yeah, she’s had some really nice, juicy, meaningful conversations on that across a range of topics.

Nicola: Cool. Brilliant. On the top, more or less it’s that? Cause I I’m big Julie fan, so yeah, absolutely. I’m finding just to shut up. It’s a, have you had like a, an app suit moment, almost like a sliding doors moment in your life where things have just changed for you?

Anita: Oh, so I think for me, it was, it was the decision to leave [00:51:00] the organization that I’d been with right years.

It was the point where I’d come back from maternity leave. I already had flexibility in this organization. Things weren’t, weren’t perfect as we’ve spoken about, but, you know, I, I felt like I could get the. If I really pushed myself for it, I was at that point where I knew that was possible now, because I’d have that change in my reflections, but I decided to take the risk and leave from what had been like really comfortable role to see what was out there in the world, because I knew that I wasn’t fulfilled and I knew that I could make more of a difference and, you know, live up to my potential.

I didn’t know what that looked like. And I did not know that I’d be, you know, creating that on my crate, in that myself, by going into business at that point. But that was a real turning point, a point of, you know, being really comfortable and just carrying on or, or seeing what else was out. Brilliant. I love

Nicola: it.

And I’m [00:52:00] still many, many lessons going to resonate with that. Absolutely. And where can, um, like my listeners find you friendly, stalk you to read all your good stuff.

Anita: So you can find me on LinkedIn and also my website, fierce project management.com. And I will pop in. Show notes with neck, a survey that I’m doing at the moment, which is all around the topics of misfit leadership.

Um, in case of leadership that we’ve been talking about today, you’ve got a few minutes to fill that in.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Of course. Well, thank you so much for today. I’ve just absolutely loved our company so much. That just absolutely resonates with me. And, um, yeah, just always cheering you on the great work that you do.

So, so, so needed in the way.

Anita: Thanks. Now tonight actually want to finish off by saying what an amazing coach you are. Oh yeah. Cause I like I’ve benefited from it firsthand and, um, Yes. If you are [00:53:00] thinking about, about these topics and yeah. Just follow up with Nick and yeah, she’s a really incredible coat.

Oh, thank you.

Nicola: I’m sat here. Just a beaming away. So that’s hugely, hugely appreciated. I’ve got a little bit of a rosy glow. My cheeks, actually. Thank you. Um, and we will see you, uh, speak to you on the next podcast. So that’s it today from females leaders on fire and, um, Feedback on anything from today, or if you’re in need of a coach of, in your organization or your lift for one-to-one coach, all the details of how to contact me are in the show notes.

So thanks so much. Bye

If what I took about really resonates with you and you love what I have to say, and you have moments of flashes of inspiration from the podcast. I would invite you to get in touch, to find out how I can help you. So individually, [00:54:00] that can be through my coaching focus program for my VIP program, depending on how you like to learn and what will suit you, or I can help you in your organization to really help the women that you work with across the organization at all different levels.

And at that very senior level to really feel empowered and to know that they can reach the very, the most senior levels in that organization and to give them the. In who they are and the clarity and what they want to be able to get there. And we do that through workshops, do that through leadership programs, and we can do that.

Free consulting work. If you are looking for help with any of that, drop me an email nycla@nicholasschoolco.com. The spelling is not the easiest. So all the details are in the show notes results I get for clients. Clients have been promoted twice in the six months we’ve worked together. They’d been invited to join the board.

They’ve gone from redundancy to being offered three dreams. They’ve gone from being pushed out of an organization to going into bigger organization and a bigger role with a bigger pay rise and just a quote from a client that [00:55:00] I particularly. I’ve gone from the pit of despair. When I started working with Nick to just being really happy and she is an incredibly empowered leader.

Now, if you’re not quite ready for that, you can download my overwhelmed on fire guide the details that are in the show notes, but that really helps you every day to stay in your fire. So it helps you to clear your head. It helps you to come back to what’s important to you, and it helps us have that most impact and influence every single day.

It’s a little Crip sheet that you can just go through and tick. So go and download that. Or you can subscribe to my newsletter, which comes out every Friday, which is a Roundup of the week. Really? So what’s going on in my world. What’s the blog for that week, a quick video, that’s going to help your particular subject.

And it’s all about helping female leaders to find their fire and also stats and any research from the industry as well. And things that I’m reading the. Um, recommendations that we’re making. So go and subscribe to that. And finally, for the podcast, if you haven’t done so already, I would love you to [00:56:00] go and leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode.

And you’re always going to have the one that release and doing that as well. Not only helps you, but it also means that we’re going to reach more women and we’re going to be able to start that revolution to helping female leaders, to keep that fire, find their fire and keep it. Keep that passion, that purpose side excitement.

So if you haven’t done that already, please go and do that. Thank

Anita: you.