Nicola: [00:00:00] Hi is Nick. And I am really, really excited today to introduce the new name of the podcast I wanted to pop on and introduce it because it’s a little bit of a, uh, shift back to where I was, but in the most brilliant way. And I, when I was in the corporate world, so I had a 16 year corporate market career and I worked in telecoms and tech companies and I put together I was a go-to market expert for a lot of that.

And then. Um, went into more commercial roles. So I Ram 2 million pound launches for these big tech and telecoms companies. And I loved what lot of what I did that. Then I moved into more of a commercial. So looking at new product launches pit in the commercials together are my last roles ahead of commercial role.

So it felt very natural that over the last year, as I very much focused on leadership and exec [00:01:00] coaching, I’ve moved naturally into more of a telecoms and a tech focus because I know that market, I know the challenges that women in those industry space. I know that you are likely to be the only woman in the room.

I know the more senior you get, the less women that you’ll see around you. I know at the very top, you are not likely to have many female peers. And I know at the early stage of your career, If you are in a role that’s engineering or more technical, again, you are likely to be a lone female voice in a room.

So it felt very natural when I came to the anniversary of the podcast and I wanted to think about the direction it was taking to come back to that world. So the podcast is now called. Women at the top of telecoms and tech. So it’s a subtle change, but for me, it’s a really, really important one. If you are not in either of those industries, please don’t worry.

This still applies to you. Absolutely. But this is just to really demonstrate my focus, my commitment, and my [00:02:00] want to make changes in those industries where women are really, really hugely underrepresented. So maybe not so much at the junior levels, but the higher women get and the more they. To that the top table and the more that they are to be the lone voice, the more they are to feel potentially quite lonely, the more they are to feel that they are the only one speaking out on certain subjects.

They are the only ones that are challenging certain behaviors. So this to me is really just a marking sand. These are the markets that I’m an absolute expert in. These are ways that I can help you. And also I understand your lived experience. I know how you are feeling so that’s my very exciting news. So just introducing the new name of the podcast, women at the top of telecoms.

And tech, and I would love you to keep listening. If you’re not in that industry, everything’s still gonna be super relevant to you if you’re a woman at the top, but I would love you to share the podcast on your socials. I would love you to share an episode with a colleague or peer, if you think it’s useful to them [00:03:00] and something’s relevant, or I would love you to rate and review the podcast as we grow into this new audience.

So thank you so much for listening and thank you for being part of this. Hello, and welcome to the female leaders on fire podcast. Now renamed women at the top of tech and telecom. So I’m here today just to introduce my guests

Tara: and I am very excited to introduce this guest as someone that I

Nicola: followed on LinkedIn for a while now.

It’s a woman that combines having a very senior role, uh, within Adobe with also having a family, um, is also doing that extra piece of work that women at the top do, which is really around just being very vocal about their position, um, sharing their experiences and sharing their knowledge around being a woman at the top, um, and making a huge impact, a real real change maker.

So today I’m speaking to Tara rule and we are gonna be talking about. Her career, um, her story [00:04:00] to how she got to where she was and the big lessons from those different chapters of her story. And then also sharing about just how she created balance with having a family and also this increasingly increasing sizes roles in organizations as well and how she manages to combine the two.

So she has incredible. She’s very honest and forthright, which I love. And she just, um, she really shares what has worked for her. And she also has a coaching focus, which I love being a coach herself as well. So this interview is absolute gold. I think you’re gonna really, really get so much from it. So you might wanna just have a notepad with you, Jo to see things down and then listen back again and again.

So yeah, so enjoy today’s episode and I’m really, really appreciative to Tara for giving her. Um, giving us her time. Thanks so much. Enjoy the episode. Bye. Hello and welcome to the female leaders on fire podcast. I am really, really excited today, um, [00:05:00] because I have an incredible guest me today. Someone that I’ve probably stalked online for a little while now, and I have with me stay and she’s a senior director, Adobe.

Um, so Tara and I met through LinkedIn. The main part of a real, really big part of my life now, actually from, um, just growing my business and networking and just meeting great people perspective. And I followed every little while and I think I just, I really loved her honesty. I really loved what she shared and I think just that.

The kind of the realness about that balancing being a mom and things that you’re doing at work as well, and having that really senior and responsible position as well. So I was really excited when she said yesterday to being on the podcast. It’s taken us a little while to get here. And she’s one of my interviews for this, uh, podcast anniversary to really just speak to women that are already in this brilliant position and, and women at the top to find out.

How they’ve done it, what their lessons are, and just really to take away some things that you can apply immediately to [00:06:00] your career, um, and hopefully to inspire you with their story and something you might resonate with or do differently as a result. So, yeah. So welcome to, I’m really excited that you’re here.

Thank

Tara: you. I absolutely love your energy, um, that the, the listeners don’t can’t necessarily see you, but literally your face is glowing. So yeah, I’m really excited as

Nicola: well. Thank you. I am really excited. We just, when we first came on, we realized we both got slightly matching, uh, shirts on stay. So I dunno how that happened, but the universe that’s quite cool as well.

So exactly. Um, so Ty, today, we’re just gonna cover like, just a bit about your career today and like where, how you’ve got to be and where you are. And I think the key thing that I want really think about. Anniversary of a podcast, my podcast, focusing on women at the top, especially in telecoms and tech.

And that’s kind of a bit of a shift in direction for me. That’s where I worked in corporate and that’s where I really want to make a difference. Cause I think it’s still really male dominated. Yeah. So if we just start off, can you just share a little bit about, and this can be a, a big question itself a little bit about how [00:07:00] you came, how you’ve come to be in the position that you’re in now, this, this brilliant senior director role, um, at Adobe and what kind of brought you to here.

Tara: Yeah, I think there’s a whole load that goes into that. but firstly, I think, um, the, the bit that I just wanna share is just when you’re talking about me and at senior women in tech, I remember I was invited to talk an event a few years ago, probably about three years ago. And it was a, a women in tech sales networking event.

And they asked me to speak and I went, oh no, now I can possibly do that. Yeah. I was like, hang on a second. Am I a woman? I check, am I in sales check? And there’s the, you know, the slight imposter that goes, oh no, no, surely that’s not me when you’re talking senior women in tech. Oh, who, who? Oh, me.

Nicola: Yeah. Are you looking around for what?

Who, who is

Tara: it? exactly. So I think I just wanna share kind of, no, I think for a lot of people, no matter how senior you get, how successful you are, you still have that little bit of. To me. Um, but that is partly why I’m so passionate on speaking [00:08:00] events like this to, um, to be vulnerable. I, I share quite a few things that are quite vulnerable about, about myself because.

I wanna be a role model for people. I want people, I want women people to say, ah, actually, and it’s not just women. I think it’s for men as well going, you can be a really decent human being that cares about people and have a kick ass job. So, oh, I’ve got goosebumps. So yeah. So, uh, yeah, loving, loving that.

I’m I’m. Oh, brilliant. So, yeah. Do you wanna know a little bit my story? Yeah. So look, I

Nicola: got just even, can I even just pick up on two things you’ve mentioned already? I, I, I felt like the conversation was gonna go like this anyway, but I love the fact that you’ve already said. And I think when, when women get to top of organizations and they they’ve had the hard yards to get there and they are very hard yards, right?

Yeah. But you have a responsibility to yourself. Who do I want to be as a leader to show. In the way that you want to, to speak up and to shake things up. But I think the [00:09:00] more senior you become, you’ve got a lot of people around you that are either inspired by you or aspired to be like you. Mm. So you’ve got suddenly this, this responsibility to be a role model.

Yeah. And to almost what behaviors do you wanna, a role model? What attributes and skills do you wanna role model? And I, I love that. You’ve already said that because it’s, for me, that’s a huge part of what, within my programs I teach and coach this ISN. It’s not just about you, we’re focused on you. You’re gonna learn about you so much, but actually there’s also a responsibility here yeah.

Of being a role model.

Tara: And I think it’s really important because I think. There are a few, I would say negative role models out there. Yeah. I dunno whether that means they’re not a role model, but negative role models out there that then kind of wipe out all the good work that 10 positive role models do.

And I remember I was coached and I’ve, I’ve been coached for a number of years now. And I think it’s really kind of heightened my awareness and helped my [00:10:00] development. But I remember being coached about four years ago and I had a real blocker about not being able to be a CEO. I’m like people had said to me, you could be a CEO one day.

And I was like, no, no pot, no. And in a coaching conversation, somebody asked me why not? And I said, well, because if to get to the top, you’ve got to be a horrible bully. Yeah. I literally had that in my mind and they went, wow, well, why do you believe that? And I said, well, because of these two people, yeah.

They’re like, right. How many leaders do you know? Hundred, 200. How many do you know that are mean bullies two the rest aren’t mean bullies, right? I’m like. Okay. Yeah, maybe. So I think it’s around, you know, we look up and I think it’s just how, how we are as humans. Yeah. The one negative wipes out, a whole load of positives, you know?

Absolutely. It gives you feedback and goes, here’s the 10 things. Amazing. You did, you know, you’re doing well, but here’s one thing you could improve on you. [00:11:00] Leave that conversation go well, I’m rubbish it there aren’t. Yeah, because, you know, we need to see lots and lots of positives in order to kind of really kind of confirm that to ourselves.

Yeah. So I think, yeah, there’s even more of a duty because we need positive, so much more positive role models out there. Yeah,

Nicola: no, absolutely. And if I, if I think back to my corporate career or quite long time ago, now my, my absolute best, most impactful, powerful transformative boss was a woman. Mm-hmm my.

Can’t stand there. Hate every moment of being at work. Know that something’s gonna, she’s gonna say something or there’s gonna be, something’s also a woman. Yeah. So there was the complete, the complete end of the scale, which is kind of. It, you know, sad in a way, but also it’s, it it’s that PA almost past that gender man, woman it’s like, was it a positive experience?

Was it? And I think we can learn just as much from those negatives. Cause I took from out all the things I didn’t want to be as a leader. Yeah. Like I don’t want to not book in time my team. So I’m in updating in front of [00:12:00] everyone and then I don’t like the answer. Yeah. That’s my responsibility to find that time.

Yeah. You know, those kind of

Tara: things. And I think I absolutely have learned from the times that weren’t so good. I had a, a manager once that it just didn’t quite work. There was something not quite right. They weren’t one of these mean bullies. Yeah. But it just, it just wasn’t quite right. I liked them as an individual, but I was really unhappy working for them.

And actually out of the back of that, I then reflected to go. I think I’ve got some values that were pushed. Mm-hmm there were some buttons that were pushed that I didn’t even know about. And it was the reflection afterwards that when, oh, actually it’s really important to me, like, so that I feel like I’m adding value.

Yeah. And in that role, I didn’t feel like I was adding value. Yeah. It’s also really important to me that I have a boss who recognizes what I do and they appreciate what I do. And that boss didn’t do that. It’s also really important to me that I have a decent work life balance and the role that I was in, probably because I didn’t feel like I was adding value and wasn’t getting the recognition.

Yeah. [00:13:00] My, my working hours were slightly out of kilter. So I think I, I really learn about my values from those times that weren’t so good. Yeah,

Nicola: absolutely. Absolutely. And I think the lessons don’t feel as good do they, but they’re just, they’re probably even more powerful in a

Tara: way. Yeah, exactly. So, and

Nicola: the second bit, I just, before we go back to your story, the second bit that I also wanted to go back to was just about.

Getting to the top and not needing to be someone that doesn’t care about people or, you know, will step past people. Or it’s just that blinkers of like, we just need to get here. However we get here. I don’t care. That’s our objective. And we’re just getting there. Yeah. And almost, I know, I know the term that’s used in coaching well, and the corporate world, quite a lot around human leadership, which I, which I do get, but it’s just about.

Caring for people. It’s what B brown called that kind of daring leadership of like, we’re all going in this direction together. What are your views? This is my idea. This is what I think we can do. What’s your view? What’s your perspective and question and challenge me to get there. [00:14:00] Yeah. And that more, yeah.

Human leadership of caring about people and having connection and just really it’s beyond the work. It’s, it’s about that person as well. And having that connection across the team and your division.

Tara: Yeah. And I think one of the, one of the qualities that I have that I always wanna shine is around being genuine.

And that’s really important to me. I, I, I talk about myself going, you know, when I sometimes have to introduce myself an event, I go, wow, there’s three, three versions of me. I’m the corporate me senior director, big worked in some big corporates, you know, photo with the gloss, with the, uh, blurry background.

the corporate me, then there’s the coach me, I’ve mentored people for years. I’m a qualified coach and that’s where I really get my passion from and what I love doing and love to integrate that into my working life. Yeah. And I’m also a mom, so I’ve got a fantastic husband. I’ve got two young children. Um, but actually there [00:15:00] aren’t three versions of.

I am me. There’s only one Tara rule. There might be another one, but, um, there’s only, there’s only one. There’s only one me. Yeah. And I am all of those things. So when I am there in a meeting as the corporate me, you also see an element of the coaching me and. Especially working from home lot. You might see my daughter come and sit on my lap and change my background while I’m talking, because there’s one version of me, not three love that.

I think it’s about knowing who you are and being confident, sharp as one person. And I think rewind 20 years ago when you were told no, no, no, maybe personal stuff at home. Yeah. And think about who you wanna be in the work. And actually I think just even that I’d invite people to go, you know, do they show up as one person?

Yeah. That is the whole them and genuine them. Or do they put on a veneer to go? No, this is what I want people to see today, but I’m gonna somewhere else. Yeah.

Nicola: No, I love that. Absolutely. Cuz [00:16:00] I think at the heart of being that most impactful and influential leader, it’s almost it’s authentic, but almost beyond authentic, isn’t it it’s simply being yourself of all those different, all those different roles that you hold that are times, like you said, you might be on a call and your daughter pops in.

Yeah. Um, I might be on a call, my dog pops in or something to say hello. So it’s actually all of those, a part of me. And that’s when I’m at my most impactful influential. I’m showing up with all of those, all of me and all of who I am. So it’s that, that most impactful that I, I feel like it’s almost beyond authentic.

Yeah. It’s, it’s purely

Tara: and simply yourself. Yeah. Completely. And I think it’s around making conscious decisions and whether it’s deliberate to start with the, whether you look back in hindsight and go hindsight and go, oh, okay. That was a deliberate step. One of the steps I took at the beginning of lockdown was.

I decided me and my husband, both working full time, both having to homeschool two young children. Hope we never, ever have to go back to those days. [00:17:00] but we survived. We came out longer. Um, I made a conscious decision that when my kids walked in, my video stayed on. I mute myself, but my video stayed on. Yeah.

And it was a conscious decision, but I didn’t necessarily think of the ripple effect. And actually people have said to me, since going, they love the fact that I keep the video on. Cause it kind of as a senior woman yeah. In our organization kind of gave other people permission to go. Okay. That’s okay.

Yeah. I don’t have to turn my video off the moment my kid walks in. So it was a deliberate step, but I wasn’t quite aware of the impact that it would have border, which I love. I love that, but that’s back to that

Nicola: role modeling again, isn’t it? Yeah. You’re almost that permission of, well, you are doing it so other people can do

Tara: it.

Yeah, exactly. I love that.

Nicola: So let’s get back to, we’ll get into some juicy lessons from your career in a moment, but let’s get back to kind of the steps that brought you to where you are now in different chapters.

Tara: Yeah. So, um, it’s funny because part of my [00:18:00] story, so what I challenge people on is around what’s the story you’re telling yourself.

So part of the story that I’ve told myself over the years is that I’m lucky. I’m lucky, you know, I, I got offered a job because somebody moved, I got offered. There’s lots of things. I go, oh, I was just lucky. And it’s taken a lot of work to go. Do you know what? Maybe it’s not luck. Maybe I am good at what I do.

And I, you know, I’m dedicated and I always wanna do a good job. And it’s those things that have, that have paid off. But I think it’s really interesting to know what is the story that you are telling yourself? And if I go right back to the beginning, I didn’t go to university. I chose 18. I went now, I just wanna work in London.

That’s it. I wanna work in London. Don’t care. What, and I got, a junior job office, admin job in London. Absolutely loved it. I was earning 12 and a half thousand pound a year, and I thought I was winning in life. amazing. But the interesting thing is when I’ve spoken to somebody, not that long ago, they interviewed me [00:19:00] about having the fact that I never went to university.

I went, you know what? It’s never become part of my story. It’s a fact, but it’s not something that I have held myself back going, oh, I’m not good enough because I haven’t got a degree or, you know, yeah, no, I can’t possibly do that. How could I be a senior director and a huge tech company without having gone to university?

I’m like, no, it is never been part of my story. So although it’s been part of my journey, It’s not something that’s held me back. So, um, yeah, I think that’s just an interesting part. I’d say. Yeah. Part of my journey, not necessarily part of my story. Yeah. Um, but I have been in, um, uh, I’ve worked on a, a few different companies, not that many, I’d say I’ve been quite loyal, um, in the company that I companies that I’ve worked at.

But I think the couple of things that have helped me get to where I am today is one being not afraid to say yes, And stretching outside of my comfort zone. So. Whether it was [00:20:00] taking on a new job, my manager left and they went, Hey, we think you should do the job. And I went, no, no way. Did I do that job?

Yeah. Um, they went, but seriously, if we bring someone else in, you are going to train them up in six months time, they’ll be up to scratch and then you’ll go, I’m bored now. And I’m gonna go. So we think you should do it now. And I’m there. I could. I gone. Nope. We don’t feel comfortable, but I. All right then go on then.

So I’ve said yes to stuff, even though I felt really uncomfortable for it. And I think probably the biggest piece that I’ve done, the biggest step that I had is when I came back from maternity leave, I used to be in finance. I’m a qualified accountant. Finance background. And I came back to work a couple of weeks before, um, returning to work.

Yeah. And I met up with my old boss and I was like, right. I’m coming back to my finance job all final fine. And then, um, the, the MD who headed up marketing saw me and he went, oh, are you back? I went, uh, yeah, I’m, I’m back in two weeks time. And he went, [00:21:00] I want you to come and work, work in my team. Which was a marketing job and I’m like, I’m an accountant.

What on earth are you talking? Yeah. And he said, I’ve got a nine month maternity cover. And I think you’d be fantastic. He went, go speak Soso. But, so I went, spoke, spoke to him. Yeah. And I walked out and I still remember to the day, even though this was 12 years ago and I phoned up my husband and went. I just accepted a job in marketing and I’ve just got a big promotion and I was just like, I have no idea what I’m doing.

and why I’m doing it. Um, but genuine, I’ve never looked back

Nicola: and love it. I love, I can feel your energy from it as well. Yeah. And just. Yeah.

Tara: And I think it is about the case going, what’s the worst that can happen. I do it. I hate it. And then in six or nine months, I move back to finance and I go, oh, I’ve got some extra experience, which I wouldn’t have had before.

Yeah. But actually it set me off on a completely different path. Um, yeah. So, yeah. So I think I’ve. I’ve stretched out my comfort zone. I love [00:22:00] an expression, which is your comfort zone is like Nico elastic. Once you stretch it, it never quite goes back to the same size so, you know, I challenge people here to go.

How can you just stretch outside your comfort zone just a little bit? Cause it made your comfort zone that a little bit bigger each

Nicola: time. I love that. I love that. And when you were off those opportunities and that, that bravely just saying yes anyway. Yeah. Um, Was, did you have like a trust in yourself?

Did you know? It would be okay. Or were you just kind of curious and thought I’ll, I’ll just experiment and see, take the pressure off and see where it leads me. Um,

Tara: I think back then, I think I’ve gone through waves. I think when I was 20, I was as confident as anything like, right. I can rule the world. This is gonna be, you know, and then I think, you know, probably late twenties, thirties to kind of go through.

Oh, I’m not, not so sure, actually. Yeah. Wow. There’s a lot going on. Really? Could I do that? So I think in a. To me, my inner [00:23:00] critic came out quite a lot then. And then in the last, you know, late thirties and now in early forties, I’ve got that extra level of confidence again. Yeah. To go, no, I can, I can do this.

I can do what I want. So it’s interesting. Cause I think those moments that, that happened, I wouldn’t have said I was at the highest of the confidence. Yeah. But I think I had that mindset of going what’s the worst that can happen. I love that. And the worst. Wasn’t awful. So why not go for it?

Nicola: Yeah. It’s almost that sliding doors moment.

Yeah. Let’s open, open the door and see what’s there. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So for, for someone listening to this today, what would you say or, so we’ve got already two brilliant lessons there. What would you say from your journey to the top of those sliding doors moments? What would you say to a woman at that’s top?

That’s maybe just not feeling as inspired at the moment or feeling like it’s just, is it worth it. What lessons would you

Tara: share with them? Yeah, I think there’s definitely something about [00:24:00] being really clear on your strengths. Yeah. And using them. I, um, I posted today actually on socials, cause I’ve heard this great kind of analogy, which is we are all like, we are stars.

Yeah. And our strengths are the points and our weaknesses of the inner bit. And when we’re at school or when you, when we normally start your career, it’s all about where do you need to develop? You need to focus on these development areas. You need to improve this and effectively what the, what the system is trying to make us do is turn us from a star into a circle.

Mm. Who, who wants to be a circle

Nicola: star, please. Yeah,

Tara: exactly. So imagine instead of focusing on all your development areas and your weaknesses, yeah. Imagine if you really worked on your strengths and you went, how can I supercharge them? And then the points of the stars get even bigger and just how bright you can shine.

Oh, I’ve got goosebumps with that. I love that. I absolutely love it. I only heard it a week ago and I’ve shared it with a [00:25:00] number of people and they’ve gone. Ah, love it. I love it. So I think it’s really about. What are your strengths? Yeah. And if you go, I don’t know. I’d go. I’d ask, what do you think your friends would say?

Mm-hmm yeah. What do you think your best friend would say is your strengths and write that down. Yeah. Then reach out to a friend, a colleague, and a family member and say to them, what do you think my strengths are? Yeah. So you kind of got a real roundness of actually these are my strengths. Yeah. And as much as, as awkward as it can be go really?

Oh no, I don’t do that. Oh gosh, no, actually own it. And go, they are your strengths. If your friends and family and colleagues see it, they are your strengths and go, how can you spend as much time as possible working on them and using them and developing them because the more you do, the more you shine.

And I think a lot of energy comes is. From doing stuff that we are good at naturally.

Nicola: Oh, absolutely. [00:26:00] Absolutely. I just so much of that resonates me. Cause I, I talk to clients about their magic. So their magic is a thing that they do in the way that they do it. That has a big impact. Yeah. And that’s different for everyone.

Cause everyone has a different mix of naturally what they’re great at versus their lived experience. What skills. It’s brought them to. Yeah. And I think that then stops the comparison. And I think corporate world, haven’t experienced it a lot. Um, 16 years, there’s a lot of focus on your development needs.

Isn’t there, there’s a lot of focus on where do you need to op skill or, you know, what courses might we need to send you to work on this area? And it’s like, well, actually, I’m not, I’m already brilliant in these, so why, why can’t I stay here? And I love, um, I love the big leap by gay Hendrix. I dunno if you’ve read it around zone of genius, but I really would like clients to think about what is my zone of genius or at least excellence.

And how can I be in that more? Yeah. How can I spend more my time in it? And if, if I can’t do it in this role, is it slightly different role or [00:27:00] do I need to,

Tara: you know, really think about what I’m doing? Yes. And before, cause I only read that book about six months ago and I was like, yeah, yes. And before that, and this would kind of be my other tip for people.

And I talk about finding your sticky toy pudding. Oh.

Nicola: Gonna make me hungry.

Tara: so how I like to think about this is when I’m out for dinner. I’ve had a starter main course, a couple of cocktails. Um, and I go, I’m full, I’m done. Can’t eat anymore. And then they bring the dessert menu. I see coffee pudding, and I go, oh, oh, I’ll squeeze one of them in.

Yes, please. So I always find room for sticky to pudding. And for years in corporate life, I have had a full diary, always a deadline, always something urgent, busy, busy, busy someone comes and knocks on my office door, or someone pings me on teams and. If you got five minutes, I need some help with something.

I will always say. Regardless of the fact that I’ve got a deadliner now I’ll go. Yeah, [00:28:00] absolutely. Because I love helping people. Yeah. And that’s my sticky topi pudding. Yeah. And reading that book, I’m going, it’s also my Z a genius. That’s the bit that I go, oh wow. I I’m good at it. And I love it. And we should be spending as much time as possible doing the stuff that we are good at and we love, and we just find space for, yeah.

So I invite people to go, what’s

Nicola: your sticky toy? Putting. I love that. Oh God, I love that. I haven’t, I haven’t heard of it described in that way, but you’re so right. And I, I think of any, any of my friends, we go out for dinner, like, oh, full can’t have anymore. Just have a look at the dessert menu. And then next thing you know, if sticky to footing’s the right thing.

Tara: So you a separate stomach for that. I’m like in my brain, I’ve got a part of my brain that. Yeah, I’ll help people.

Nicola: But I think the, the important part of it as well, when you’re describing it and your energy, your energy just kind of came through the screen. It was just really just so positive and so excitable, but that passion behind it.

I think again, you find, you find that sticky, fluffy [00:29:00] pudding, and that is where. It almost creates that energy. If you’re doing a lot of things that are zone of competence, you’re kind of okay. Out or zone of incompetence, even. Yeah. It drains your energy. So it’s almost the best of you is when you’re in something that not only, you know, inspires you, excites you, but it almost creates more energy for you to do more.

Yeah. Exactly. So I, um, I’ve taken on a new exec assistant this week and I, in my head it’s like, oh, I don’t know if I’m quite ready and all these kind of things. But I was just thinking like, I, I’m not great at my diaries and my emails and stuff. And it’s like, oh, she’s like, I love it. I can’t wait to organize life value.

Are you ready to be completely organized? I’m like, oh, I’m a bit terrified. Yeah. But I’m also very excited

Tara: now. Yes. And actually the energy from that instead of going right. You’re gonna go on a course and learn how to be really efficient and really organized. You’re like, oh really? Yeah. I’d rather not do that.

yeah. Whereas if went right, you’re gonna go on a course about positive psychology. You might go. Oh, fantastic. Exactly. You wanna do that? So it’s it’s [00:30:00] yeah. Figuring out what you are good at and do is much. Spend as much of your time doing that stuff as possible. Absolutely.

Nicola: I, I, yeah. Really resonate with that.

Yeah. So obviously from your experience in the corporate world, obviously, um, the podcast and who I generally work with, I work with women at the, at the top, but do you feel that there’s a shift going on, do you think there’s changes that are flowing through, especially AF after we’ve come out of two years of lane?

Like no over two years before? Yeah. Have you, have you been feeling some shifts and

Tara: changes. I, I definitely think so. I think there’s a couple of shifts going on. One is I think that there is now seen as a better balance between husbands and wives and who does what, and it may not have naturally it might not actually be an actual change, but it seemed to be a change.

Yeah. So my husband and I, we are, we are very equal. We do, you know, a lot of. Together or take turns. Yeah, I don’t feel the burdens all on me actually is, [00:31:00] you know, real kind of joint partnership. And his company asked him to do a interview about how he balances the kids and, and work. And that I absolutely loved cuz they were like, Hey, we want a male role model.

Yeah. Talking about how he, they balance stuff and. It’s not changed. It’s not like he wasn’t like that two years ago and he is now. Yeah. But there’s more awareness to go. How do we, how do we highlight this? How do we bring it out even more? Yeah. So that I I’m really loving kind of seeing, seeing the change ball.

And I think there’s also a bit just with the hybrid working yeah. Around figuring out what’s right for you. Yeah. So I, for years have talked about helping people find their work by balance. Yeah. And. I can’t tell anybody what that looks like, nor can anybody tell me what my perfect work life balance looks like for me, I choose to work full time and [00:32:00] I have always chosen to do the nursery run when they were at nursery or I’ve chosen to not work weekends, or I lock off a certain time.

Now I’m quite strict about what time I log off. And that to me is balance. Yeah. Other people may go, no, I, I only wanna work. 10 till three. So I can do the both school runs every single. Yeah. Great. It’s about finding that work life balance. That’s right for you. Yeah. And I, I remember I coached somebody years ago and they were feeling really disheartened with stuff and they were completely out of balance.

And I just asked, ’em a few questions. We were only speaking for about 20 minutes. And at the end they went, if only like you could have told me right at the beginning, that all I needed was. To go to the gym three times a week and to not check emails after 7:00 PM, is that I’m so glad you’ve told me that.

And I’m thinking, I didn’t tell you that. Yeah. Who am I to tell you? You need to go to the gym two or three times. Who am I to say? Seven o’clock is your email cut off, but [00:33:00] allowing people that space to go, what? Fill out a kilter at the moment for your worklife balance, what would you like to improve? What are you doing?

Well? Cause I guarantee there’s stuff that we’re doing well at the moment and then going, right. What do I choose to do? What do I choose to do to make that help positive impact? And often just stopping and reflecting just for a few minutes about what’s one positive step you can take today tomorrow in order to move into a better work-life balance.

Yeah. So I think, yeah, that, that’s just really important. I see that shift with, with kind of hybrid working now. Yeah,

Nicola: definitely. And just. More options to be flexible. Yeah. And I’ve had clients that have completely embraced that and it’s been across their organizations. I’ve had other clients that are.

Their boss is like, I wanna eyeball you. I want you in the office. Yeah. But what am I not delivering? Or what is not happening? Yeah. What, what are you gonna get from me? Take another eight hours out of my week to travel into an office. Yeah. That you are not actually in every day anyway. Yeah. [00:34:00] Yeah. And I, I think that just opens then that.

It feels like it’s, it’s generating and developing like an equality around, well, someone might want it because they’re a carer and mom might want it for her children, but a husband might equally want it because he’s got a hobby that he loves or he is studying. Yeah. So for example, my, my other half is always, always got a postgrad going on in the background.

So it’s for him. It’s that balance and that for everyone, he. Different, depending on the chapter of the life of their life, that they’re in at

Tara: that point completely. And I think it’s as well understanding for both parties to understand both sides. So if I was a manager and said, I want you in the office two days a week and you have to be there.

Kind of might get resistance. Yeah. But actually, if I said, you know, I, I do believe we should be getting together as a team because yeah. I think we’ve been more creative and I wanna have some white boarding sessions with you. And I think, you know, when we have our development sessions, I’d love to kind of be in the [00:35:00] room and have it slightly.

Yeah. Kind of the more informal Chan get to know you a bit more rather than just kind of telling the reasons why. Yeah. Rather than just going, by the way I expect you in every Monday and we. Hang off. Why? Yeah. So I think, yeah, it’s understanding both sides. Yeah. And, and on the other side, if you go, no, I don’t wanna be in the office instead of just going and going.

No, I don’t wanna be there. It’s like, okay. Explain why, what are the, what are the boundaries? What are the things that are really important to you? Yeah,

Nicola: absolutely. Absolutely. And do you see that? I think that flexible and that kind of hybrid work, and it’s just gonna open much more opportunities for women in tech and telecoms industries, because it’s, like I said, it’s kind of like the evening out the level playing field.

If someone’s got a good reason to. Work from home. Yeah. Finish bang on time or coming a little bit later. Yeah. It’s kind of irrelevant. What the reason is. It’s like, can that, is that person still delivering? Are they still doing a great

Tara: job? Yep. Exactly. And that’s where I’d go. You know, it kind of goes full circle to go.

If you’re in a job where you feel like you’re playing to your strengths and you’re adding value, [00:36:00] then actually naturally it’ll get seen by people. But if you’re in a job where they want you in, because you, you’re not necessarily adding the value a chance to go play, maybe you’re not playing to your strengths.

Yeah. So the more, you know, your strengths, the more you can go. Is this even the right role for me, because the thing often, isn’t the thing. So if they’re going, Hey, you know, you need to be in, actually there might be something different. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Nicola: And what do you see? What have you seen in your organizations or across, across the industry, within the kind of tech and telecoms world, what have you seen?

That’s working to help get more women up to, up to where you are and future leaders as well.

Tara: Yeah, I think there’s probably, um, there’s two or three things that I’ve seen. Um, one is around helping girls in tech. Mm. Yeah. So, um, I think there’s a, there’s a lot of, uh, movements. There’s a lot of programs, a lot of companies that really do help young girls in tech.

So whether it’s around. Coding skills. Like [00:37:00] we have code camp, uh, that the kids can go in for or more interns in tech or there’s companies. I know that we work with that will, um, go in and, and speak. People will go and speak and share their stories with people at school. So you can go, oh, okay. Again, it’s that role modeling to go.

Oh, okay. She looks a bit like me. Maybe I can that, so I think there’s, there’s that kind of girls in tech. Yeah. Um, I think the next stage is around the recruitment piece. Yeah. So we have some really great policies about recruitment, which is around being clear on. The kind of the process rather than the outcome.

So we don’t have an element where we go, Hey, 50% of your hires have to be female. Yeah. But we do have a policy around actually making sure that even as simple thing, like writing the job description to go, it goes through a system, a tool to go is. Neutral. Is it gender neutral? Brilliant. I love that. If you’re there [00:38:00] going, Hey, I’m looking for a really strong, ambitious leader.

Who’s gonna take control and right. You want a man then? That’s, you know what you’re saying? Yeah. So it literally goes to go no change these words, and it has suggestions for the words to change. The other thing that also does is go, we, we are. Challenged by our talent recruitment team to go a job description should really be no longer than a page or two at most.

Yeah. And the reason being that if a man looks at a job description, if he can do half of it, he’ll go. Yeah. I’ll apply. Now, this is stereotypical, but it is done by research. You know, a man will apply a woman if she can’t do a hundred percent, she won’t even apply. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve

Nicola: read that. Se those surveys just shocking.

Is it 30, 40% gap in confidence there? Exactly.

Tara: And the thing. So I’d heard it years ago and I’d gone. Okay. But the bit that I then didn’t connect to is if you’re then writing a job description, that’s three pages long. There are many more opportunities for women to go? Nope. Nope, [00:39:00] no, no. Yeah. And then they self-select out.

Right. So making the job description quite short and sweet. Yeah. Actually kind of helps with that awareness. So I think that I, I absolutely love, um, and then I think there’s the other piece. The third kind of pillar when you’re actually in recruitment to go, how do you have role models? We have, um, a women at Adobe network.

Yeah. I actually organize external speakers for our network and I I’m really passionate about inclusion. Yeah. So I, when I organize speakers, I look at topics that I think will resonate with women. So it could be about negotiation. It could be about imposter syndrome. It could be yeah. Their topics that I think women would definitely resonate with, but absolutely men resonate with it as well.

So when I run the sessions, we invite everybody and say Adobe for all. I love that everybody. So that’s the way that I try and be really inclusive. And I used to, I used to work at oh two and I used to run the, I [00:40:00] was the chair of the women’s network there. Then I moved over to Adobe and. I recently had somebody start and they moved over and they went, oh, by the way, are you still running all your women’s network events?

Because you know, here, because I’d love to join them because they used to work at two, saw them. So, and that was a man that had said that. And I absolutely loved it cuz they got a lot of value from the sessions as well, because you know those topics, aren’t just, just for women, but it’s starting with that mindset and then going, how do we, and being inclusive along the

Nicola: way as well.

Yeah. And I love that. And what I’ve, what I’ve seen is some organization that I’ve worked with over the last year. It’s almost, there was one organization that had, um, a women’s network that then became a 50, 50 gender, 50 50 gender group. Yeah. So it was almost like you said, topics might focus on something women need, but equally men need it around confidence, imposter syndrome.

How do I, you know, speak up in meetings more? Yeah. Confidence. And actually when I’ve run those sessions with men and women, It’s almost the, the comments you see coming through. There’s [00:41:00] very similar feelings. Absolutely. In that sense of. Community and togetherness. Oh, it’s not just women. So we know that imposter syndrome, for example, it’s almost been bashed as, you know, this is with women, but actually men, men can feel it.

Absolutely as

Tara: well. Absolutely. Yeah. I see that all the time.

Nicola: And what, what do you see is happening next? So what do you see happening next in the corporate world to kind of bring more women to the top?

Tara: Ooh, interesting question. I think there’s a lot more awareness. Um, and I think that awareness has built over the years, including around the, the customer profiles that companies, uh, you know, are appealing to very few companies will go, Hey, all of our clients are men.

Actually, they will be diverse. So I think companies definitely have that awareness to go our, our leadership and our teams need to represent our customers. Yeah, absolutely. So that we can think more rounded. So I think that’s definitely improved. It feels

like

Nicola: a driver as well, because [00:42:00] that relates to it.

If you’re not. Developing products pricing. If that’s not focused on your cus like 50% or more of your customer base over time, you, you lose a market advantage

Tara: there. Yeah, exactly. Um, and I think there’s that kind of slight accountability as well. I think, you know, with the, with the gender pay gap and, um, stats being much more available.

Companies, aren’t waiting to be called out. They are proactively, you know, every quarter when we have a review on our talent, uh, recruitment, there was a stat of going, okay, what is the male versus female kind of percentages? Not to say you have to aim and you have to get this, but that awareness to go, actually, if you’re only 10% female, yes, it will get called out to you.

Yeah, absolutely. So. People, I think companies are being much more proactively of looking internally and sharing with the leaders rather than kind of trying to hide it and go, oh, okay. We won’t talk about that today. [00:43:00] Yeah, I think you’re

Nicola: right. And I see the heartening thing I see is the more organization has to talk to and I work with, and I I’m a bit of a gig, so I’ll before have a conversation, I go and look at their gender pay gap report, and there’s some really.

Brilliant initiatives that comp big companies are committing to that maybe not immediate, but over time are gonna just drive that, drive that improvement and drive getting to that point of equality. And a lot of, a lot of big companies are committing to some really good big goals around 50, 50 gen gender equality.

Tara: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Nicola: And through the ranks as well, and through up that very senior level. Um, what about you, what’s next for you? What exciting things have you. In the pipeline.

Tara: Yes. True. Probably the most exciting for me is I’m currently getting qualified as a positive psychology coach. Amazing. So that’s really exciting for me.

So I’m just starting that journey. Yeah. And really it’s about how do I impact more people. So I’m really passionate about helping busy working mums. I really help everybody, like if I’m like [00:44:00] genuinely, but I think really, you know, helping busy working moms, I’m really passionate about. Yeah, and I wanna empower more people.

I want to help people grow in confidence. I wanna help people really feel like they can take control of their career and grow it, take it to that next level. Yeah. And so that’s what I’m really, really passionate about. So, um, yeah, I think doing more of that and thinking how I can do that. So I’ve um, yeah, I’ve got some social networks that through Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn that people can connect through.

Yeah. So, um, yeah, I think. I’ve started building that audience and just the messages I’m having from people that’s having the impact, literally like there’s nothing better in a day. Yeah. So I, yeah, I absolutely love that. Yeah.

Nicola: So is that, you know, you’ve done, you’ve done the harder to get to this great point in your career.

Now it’s like, how do we, how do I help other women, men? How do I inspire other people to get there or beyond, or get to their own [00:45:00] variation of that? And,

Tara: yeah, exactly. And I’m really passionate. I mentor and coach a lot of people internally as well. I speak on a lot of events that we do internally, uh, run workshops, so that.

Like, I love the fact that people reach out to me now proactively in the development team, talent and development team go, Hey, can you talk at this event? Or can you run a session on this? So, um, yeah. Yeah. I’ve, uh, I’ve done a few about hybrid working, um, one around rethinking priorities. So just being able to make a bigger impact now that you know, I I’ve got to the level that I am at, actually it’s about how do I help even more people.

Yeah,

Nicola: I love that. I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Um, did you have any final message for our audience today? Cause I think there’s, there’s got lots of, lots of juicy and gold tips in there, but any, any final

Tara: message? Yeah, I think probably my final thing would be decide what you wanna give [00:46:00] 10 out 10. Mm. So I invite people to get a pen and paper and write down all the things that they think they could do.

They should do they want to do, somebody has told them that they should do put it all out to literally spend five minutes, 10 minutes. That’s all it takes, writing it all down. And then stepping back and going, which are the few that I wanna give 10 out 10 to. Mm. I love that because life is too short for a whole bunch of sevens.

So actually going, these are tens and these are in zero right now. Yeah. And really be focused on the few big things that you go. This can really make an impact to. Yeah. So that would be my big kind of shout out. And then if people wanna kind of follow me, be involved and see kind of my regular posts, I’ve uh, got Facebook group called, um, busy to balanced.

Um, I have got a, uh, Instagram, which is Tara rule coaching and I’m on LinkedIn as well.

Nicola: Brilliant. Well, we’ll pop all those in the show notes. We’ll get the details and pencil [00:47:00] people just click straight through, but thank you so much for your time today. Just absolutely loved, loved, um, our conversation. I think there’s so much in there, so thank you.

I like, I think like you set out with the intention, helping people really take control of their career and be. Inspired again and excited. I think that’s really, that’s completely done that. So thank you so much. You’re welcome.

Tara: Well, thank you for stalking me and getting in contact.

Nicola: Let’s friendly stalking

here. I just wanna take a moment just to say thank you for listening. When I’m sat recording a podcast in the deepest steps of Cornal, it’s incredible to think that is reaching women across the world in 30 different countries. And we have thousands of downloads a month. So thank you so much for being part of that.

And being part of the audience means a world to me, but I do want to grow this audience. I would love you to help me reach more women like you so that we can really drive positive change [00:48:00] in the corporate world. So you can do that one of three. First of all, you can subscribe to the podcast. You never miss an episode.

It’s always a new episode. It’s always delivered straight to your inbox. You can review the podcast and leave us of rating. And the more ratings we have, we also go up in the podcast charts. And finally, you can just share a favorite podcast with a peer, with a colleague or on your social media. So I would love you to do that.

Thank you for all your help. Um, I can’t

Tara: wait for what’s next.