Nicola: [00:00:00] Hi is Nick. And I am really, really excited today to introduce the new name of the podcast I wanted to pop on and introduce it because it’s a little bit of a, uh, shift back to where I was, but in the most brilliant way. And I, when I was in the corporate world, so I had a 16 year corporate market career and I worked in telecoms and tech companies and I put together I was a go-to market expert for a lot of that.

And then. Um, went into more commercial roles. So I Ram 2 million pound launches for these big tech and telecoms companies. And I loved what lot of what I did that. Then I moved into more of a commercial role. So looking at new product launches, pit the commercials together and my last roles ahead of commercial role.

So it felt very natural that over the last year, as I’ve very much focused on leadership and exec [00:01:00] coaching, I’ve moved naturally into more of a telecoms and a tech focus. Because I know that market. I know the challenges that women in those industry space. I know that you are likely to be the only woman in the room.

I know the more senior you get, the less women that you’ll see around you. I know at the very top, you are not likely to have many female peers. And I know at the early stage of your career, If you are in a role that’s engineering or more technical, again, you are likely to be a lone female voice in a room.

So it felt very natural when it came to the anniversary of the podcast. And I wanted to think about the direction was taking to come back to that world. So the podcast is now called. Women at the top of telecoms and tech. So it’s a subtle change, but for me, it’s a really, really important one. If you are not in either of those industries, please don’t worry.

This still applies to you. Absolutely. But this is just to really demonstrate my focus, my commitment, and my [00:02:00] want to make changes in those industries where women are really, really hugely underrepresented. So maybe not so much at the junior levels, but the higher women get and the more they get to that, the top table.

And the more that they are to be the lone voice, the more they are to feel potentially quite lonely, the more they are to feel that they are the only one speaking out on certain subjects, they are the only ones that are challenging certain behaviors. So this to me is really just a mark on sun day. These are the markets that I’m an absolute expert in.

These are the ways that I can help you. And also I understand your lived experience. I know how you are feeling so that’s my very exciting news. So just introducing the new name of the podcast. Women at the top of telecoms and tech. And I would love you to keep listening. If you’re not in that industry, everything’s still gonna be super relevant to you if you’re a woman at the top, but I would love you to share the podcast on your socials.

I would love you to share an episode with a colleague or peer, if you think it’s useful to them [00:03:00] and something’s relevant, or I would love you to rate and review the podcast as we grow into this new audience. So thank you so much for listening and thank you for being part of

Jules: this.

Nicola: Hello. Hi everyone. And welcome to the female leaders on fire podcast.

Now renamed very excitingly. It’s part of what we’re doing this week and relaunched as, uh, women at the top of telecom’s tech. And today we are carrying on with our week of interviews and I’m really, really excited today because I have. Jules, and I am gonna try and say her surname Sy Joti with me today.

So just to introduce Jules before she introduces herself, Jules is HR director in BTS digital unit. Um, so this is a unit that’s grown very, very quickly. And she’s also supporting people strategies across division CIOs and alongside a business startup hub. So her role really entails driving organizational development, design, supporting people management for the leaders in the business, and [00:04:00] really driving modernization and innovation across new sectors.

Previous experience was really around FMCG telecoms manufacturing, and she’s done a lot of different things and a lot of, um, different HR roles, but she’s now at the point in her career. She’s a senior director. So she’s a HR director for digital BT. She has a big team and a big budget. Um, and she’s done all this by the age of 34 with also being a mom of three young children who might, may or might not show, um, and have a little appearance on the podcast at some point.

So she’s also started sharing of her journey about being busy, ambitious mum, but also wanting to still have that. And today when I met, um, Jules and I had a previous conversation, which was for part my white paper research and the biggest thing that struck me, which is what we’re gonna kind of focus on a lot of today was really about how open she is, about how ambition and just stating it and sharing it and almost that then starting to believe in it.

And then it [00:05:00] started to happen. So whether that’s law, retraction or people saying, well, that’s where you wanna go. So let’s help you get there. So today’s episode is really all about not being afraid of your own ambition and that you can have a success in different streams of your life. And that looks different for everyone.

So, hi, Jules, I’m really excited that you’re here

Jules: today. Hi, thanks for having me. I’m excited as well.

Nicola: Oh, it’s really good to have you here. And she’s just come. She’s not been very well the last couple of days, so I’m super excited. So I was really delighted when it popped off in my diary today. So yeah, so Jules, if you just wanna start, so I’ve gone through your introduction and this brilliant position that you are now in to really influence and drive change and BT it’s absolutely brilliant.

Doing that with being a mom of three as well. And just doing that all like a relatively young age. So can you just share some of, some of the chapters of the story of how you came to be in the position that you’re in

Jules: now? Yeah, sure. So I think, you know, if I start chapter one, I’ve always been somebody who, who is keen to [00:06:00] succeed and works really hard to do so.

Yeah. And, and, and have known what I want. And, you know, I’m not gonna let anyone get in the way. Um, yeah. And probably when I was younger, that came across as a little bit more like aggressiveness and, and, and very focused. I think it’s just, I’m super passionate about what I do. And I’ve always been that way.

And if I’m not, then I. The wrong thing for me to be doing. Um, and that’s been, you know, a theme throughout my childhood and beyond I joined Unilever as a grad. And when you join Unilever’s graduate program, the Unilever future leaders program, it’s pretty competitive to get in. And then it’s really competitive when you’re in it.

Yeah. Whether, whether it’s meant to be or not, I don’t know, but this, uh, you know, being surrounded by the very few of the chosen. People. Yeah. Um, and, and really wanting to make sure that you, you show your worth and you show that they made the right decision in hiring you and, um, that they can put their faith in you to give you those opportunities.

Cuz it is quite fast track. Uh, you know, it’s two years rotating across three different placements [00:07:00] where you are, um, you know, you’re in a factory dealing with union negotiations and then you’re going and doing, you know, delivering on what the assessment of potential should look like for the whole of Unilever globally.

And it’s, you know, they give you. A lot of responsibility early on. Yeah. For people you’ve never necessarily worked, um, before, at least in a corporate organization to get you ready for that, that management role. And you know, two years in you’re a manager and you are, you are, you’re managing people, you are business partnering, large parts of their organization.

And so I think that, that the speed and the focus with which they. That they put on their graduates. I think it only sort of exacerbated for me either. I’m really ambitious that I wanna progress. And I think it gave me a taste of, um, and probably a little bit of itchy feet in quite short space of time. I wanna move quickly and I wanna go and do the next thing and learn from that and the next thing and learn from that.

So it, almost that that

Nicola: ambition you had was kind of. Just, um, [00:08:00] exaggerated by that

Jules: environment, by that environment completely. And it was, and you know, it’s not an environment for everybody. Uh that’s for sure. But it was, it was the perfect environment for me. Who’s quite, and anyone would tell you this who’s quite competitive anyway.

um, you know, I quite, I quite enjoyed the, you’ve gotta get as much learning out of this as you possibly can. And then, yeah, you’ve got to really value what you’ve done so that then they give you that management role, because they’re quite brutal as well. You know, if you don’t make the cut, you don’t make the.

And I, and I was gonna make the cut. That was, you know, that was my, that was my focus. Um, and it’s sort of been that way ever since the, you know, yeah. I spend 18 months, maybe two years in a row and I’m like, what’s next? And I’m always, always thinking about what’s next.

Nicola: So when I, when I work with a lot of women that are in brilliant positions, there’s still sometimes that sense of.

You know, they’ve done a lot of the hard work. They’ve climbed the ladder, they’ve got this great position. They can really influence, you know, a very strategic board level, but there’s also sometimes a bit of a, a loss as to what what’s next [00:09:00] for them. Um, for some of them that’s maybe cuz they’re at a chapter of the life.

Maybe they want to focus on their family or they want to slow down a little bit or they want to pursue, you know, something academic, but. Where do you think that kind of clarity for you comes from of just, I know what I want because actually when I work with women, part a huge part of the work we do is like, let’s help you find that clarity because then you’ve got all this brilliant expertise.

You’ve got the energy behind you. You’re gonna really focus. You’re gonna say no to things that aren’t relevant. And I just think sometimes that feeling lost is like just, it’s a lack of clarity.

Jules: Yeah. And I think I’ve definitely had that. And, and, and if I’m really honest, the times that I’ve had that lack of clarity is when I’ve been on maternity leave feeling a little bit like a fish out of water, knowing that it’s, you know, the maternity leave and, and the, you know, the, the cafe meets with the mums and things is not really where I’m meant to be.

And trying to come to terms with that a bit, because, you know, there’s for sure a bit of guilt that you go through and [00:10:00] when you are going through that thought process of, am I saying, I don’t wanna be with my child all the time and yes, I am saying that. And I’m, you know, far more comfortable saying that now than I probably was when I had the first one by the third one, I was like, yeah, I don’t, um, I really love them and, and I can’t imagine my life without them, but we all know in my house that I’m much better off in the workplace than I am than I am at home with them.

And yeah. And I think those maternity. Each time, it gave me a bit of a, you know, a, a bit of time to reflect on this is what I’ve done so far. Yeah. And this is what I know. I get my energy from and, and, and what I know I want to drive for. And so the whole time I was on maternity, I was also staying in touch with the companies in touch with my manager in touch with other people that weren’t necessarily my manager.

And, you know, maybe in other companies to understand what’s going on, you know, what, what are the opportunities? What are the transformation projects that are coming? Because I want. Know what I can come back to and I need it to be worth not being at home with my kids. Yeah. So that’s, and that’s, that’s been the big [00:11:00] thing for me, the, the being in work and being able to work on really exciting transformational projects, it had to be that for it to be worth me not being at home more often with the kids and I work full time often because I get these big, chunky things to deliver.

And so it would be very. To do it part-time or I have a, you know, my sense is I could say I’m doing it part-time but I wouldn’t actually be doing it part time. Yeah. Yeah. Um, And so, you know, there has to be the payoff so that learning and the opportunity and the ability to really have impact has to yeah.

Has to be there. Um, I love that. Yeah.

Nicola: Yeah. I think, um, I, I spoke to, um, another very senior lady last week about this white paper research and. I think she was exactly same. So she’s a mum for she’s in a very senior position and she’s like, I love my children. I’ve set up my life so that I’ve got the right support.

So actually, if I do more with them, it’s a bonus. So I’m not ever under pressure. So when I turn up at the school gates, it’s a brilliant surprise. I love it. And [00:12:00] they love it, but there’s not that pressure, but she did say the roles that I’m gonna be in. Damn well, gonna have the impact. I’m gonna have the influence.

I’m going to want something big enough and meet enough to take me away from my family and to make that want a better word, sacrifice worth it, because otherwise I will want to be at home with my children. So let’s make that worth it by this is something big enough to have the impact and influence. I.

Jules: Completely. Um, yeah, she sounds like a brilliant lady who I’d love to know about. Um, but I definitely I’ll share. I’ll share her details if you Joan. Yeah. But I, I definitely agree with her. Um, and I, and I think that it does make the time that you spend. With them more special and, and, you know, you trying to do more with it.

So it works on both sides. I’m not saying I’ve got it. Perfect. And you know, sometimes I probably over index on one far more than the other, but you know, we’ve got a rhythm with working through it, you know? It’s yeah. It sort of works for us. Yeah. It wasn’t like for everybody. Yeah, but it

Nicola: works for you and it works for stage [00:13:00] that you’re at right now.

Exactly. And when you first, when you had your, your first baby, did it, how did, how did it work with kind of like that feeling of guilt? And I really liked your blogs. Well, you must go and read that we’ll pop a link of the show notes to it about your very honest, how you feel as a mom. You just made this big move back to Yorkshire, but you also, you don’t feel like you’ve ever been the kind traditionally maternal and like, oh my God, there’s a baby.

Jules: Definitely all those sort of things that I have like, oh my God. Next. Yeah.

um, yeah, I think the, um, the first baby, the guilt, I didn’t have so much. We managed, you know, we did, um, shared parental leave actually. So I did the first nine months. My husband took three months off at the end. Yeah. Um, and I went back to work and I’ve always only ever taken nine months off with the kids.

Um, and I never felt it as much with him. I think. I knew I was returning to a new job. I knew I’d got a promotion just before I went off of maternity. So it was sort of, yeah, things were, things were set up there and I was okay about it and I was excited [00:14:00] to get back. It was when the second one came and, and he, you know, he was born, um, a little bit premature.

Um, and I mean, you wouldn’t know it now. Um, he was a big boy, but you know, he was, he was a. Smaller and, and going back at nine months when he was born premature meant I, in my head, I was like, I’m actually only going back in he’s only eight months or, you know, seven and a half months. And, um, will he be okay at nursery?

And we didn’t do shared parental at that time. Cuz my husband was at a point of his career where there was exciting things going on and um, you know, we had to make that call. And I think that that was probably the time when I felt the most guilt. Am I being fair on, on the babies and have I given him enough time and, and.

You know, and I don’t think there’s the right answer. I, I think he’s absolutely fine now he’s doing brilliantly. Yeah. Um, he’s doing brilliantly. Uh, there you go in action for you. Yeah. Um, and, and he won’t remember it and, and he is. Is is just fine. And I think it was, it is completely [00:15:00] about me and, and trying to calibrate that in myself was the, was the challenge.

And by the third one, I’d sort of become very okay with this is what it’s gonna be, and I’m gonna get the most outta that time. I mean, COVID came that one, so I didn’t get the most outta that time that I was meant to. Yeah. But, um, you know, I spent some amazing time with all three of them unintentionally, uh, during.

Nine months and had some brilliant times and knew that I, you know, they, they developed brilliantly at nursery and they’re gonna get all sorts of social interaction skills. Yeah. And, and, and that’s brilliant for them. And that’s stuff that I’m not gonna be able to give them. Yeah. So, absolutely. Absolutely.

I’m not saying the guilt is definitely there sometimes when you are, and we are the last ones to pick our kids up. Right. Yeah, but does it

Nicola: just, is it just go back to, well, to be the mom that I wanna be and be, you know, role model of, you know, actually you can have a family, you can have this great career and you can have, you know, a great relationship at home, but it’s to be the best of me anyway.

Rather than that frustrated or I’m having to work [00:16:00] part-time or, you know, take a small little, cause that’s all that’s offered at,

Jules: at part-time. Yeah, completely. And, and I think that, you know, if, if, if I had done any of those things for me and for my family, that wouldn’t have worked, I’d be frustrated. My husband would know that, you know, I’m sometimes I look back on, on my mater leaves and it was obviously, you know, you love seeing.

Your partner as a dad. It’s amazing. It’s also the times when I was like the most like, oh, you’re really frustrating me, cuz you get to go and do the work stuff and you get to go and really be tested and challenged and your brain is working and I’m here doing, you know, especially in those very early days where they play just sleep and feed and change nappies and you know, it’s pretty much on repeat.

I found that so difficult and I know that’s just, that’s that’s not the right thing for them. They’re not gonna get the best me and, and this way I think we have the best of, of both worlds. Yeah. Um,

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s like you said, I think it changed over time as well, what they need, doesn’t

Jules: it. So exactly.

And best of view is best for them. Ultimately, I’d like to think so. Um, and it’s the [00:17:00] same for my husband as well. You know, he is a busy, busy man and he’s got, you know, a big job as well. And he, sometimes I think we really, we really focus on these conversations for women and, you know, I know we could better them and we’re the ones that take a bit more.

The the time off in maternity. Yeah. Most of the time, but you know, it’s the same challenge for him that how do you create the balance? Yeah. And make sure that it works and how, you know, how do I be the best ad that I need to be in. And we are very open about having that conversation with each other and challenging ourselves and each other on it.

But I don’t pretend this is purely, uh, A me issue to work through. It’s a

Nicola: absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and the big part of what we were gonna talk about today was around that being you, how open you are with your ambitions and where you wanna get to. So just, and I see this in a lot of women, they have like unspoken ambitions or, you know, my clients, some of them want to write a book or they want to speak more often.

They want to be invited to panel sessions and those sort of things, but it’s like, but they’re not [00:18:00] articulating it. So part of it is. It needs to be kind of articulated to bring it into the world. So people know, so you start speaking about it. So then you’re starting to look for opportunities. Just say more about where, where do you think that came from

Jules: for you?

Yeah, and, and I think my openness with it is, is relatively new actually. Um, I think that it’s only since I’ve been put into the role that I’m in now, um, and, and sort of had the opportunity to lead on a couple of really impactful. Programs of work for BT and, and been successful in doing so that I’ve, I’ve found that, you know, a number of my team or, or people who work across the organization, they want to come and talk to me about my experiences and they want to know how I do the, having kids with working in a, you know, in, in a really busy job.

You know, some of them wanna talk about my age. I try, I try not to talk too much about my age, but mainly cuz I feel like I’m getting a lot older um, but, um, you know, and they, and they want to talk about it and, and I think [00:19:00] that it’s only since I’ve I’ve, I’ve had this opportunity that I felt a bit more of a responsibility actually to, to let people.

Into how it works for us, you know, in, in all its brutal honesty and that’s a bit what the blog was as well. Um, you know, it’s because it’s not perfect and it’s not easy. And um, and I don’t, you know, I get a lot of people saying, oh, you have it all together. And that’s amazing. And I’m like, oh, I don’t think we do I’m oh, we’re not.

So you know, so obviously people are seeing something and I don’t want them to, I, I would never once be an authentic. . Um, and I, I think I’m quite an authentic leader, but, um, I don’t want them to believe something that’s not true. So I, so I started to hear a bit more of this after I got promoted and I was like, Okay.

Um, this is something I really need to think about. And, and I had some coaching when they promoted me at BT, they invested in a coach, an external coach for me. And, um, and that was a real turning point for me, cuz for sure. I, you know, I definitely experienced imposter syndrome on a regular basis. [00:20:00] Yeah. Less so than I did, but I definitely had it.

And I think that the conversations that I had with my coach, um, and she was fantastic. They really helped me to. Change my narrative a bit. And you know, sometimes I think you can, I can be a bit hard on myself and yeah, a bit tough. And actually it turned things for me and I wanted to share some of that with people.

I wanted them to know this is what I’m striving for. And I, and I don’t want to be ashamed of it because if I tell you, then maybe you can help me. You know, it’s, it’s, I’m not being altruistic. Uh, you know, there is something about the, if you, if you share it, you might get something back. And so it’s only quite recently that I’ve been sharing with my boss.

I would love to be a chief HR officer one day. And I think I’ve had that in my mind, probably always. Yeah. Um, but only really articulated it in the last few months. And as I’ve started to say it to more people, the, the response and the, um, the respect that people have, and, you know, it’s a bit of the conversation you and I have the respect people have for saying it has really made me think, why don’t we say this stuff?

Um, yeah. And, and, and [00:21:00] what have I been scared of because this. This is only going to benefit me and, and some people might see it as being, um, a bit too. I mean, I dunno if this is a thing, but too, it’s not a thing in my, but a bit too driven. Um, and you know, and some people could say it’s, it’s linked to my directness and my, um, willingness to kind of say it as it is.

And am I just being a little bit too much? And I don’t think that is it. I think that this is me saying I’ve worked really hard for, you know, the, the last 12 years of my career. I wanna keep working hard. I want to keep learning because I don’t want to be a chief HR officer for the title of being a chief HR officer.

I want to strive for that because I want to be able to have impact in my roles. Yeah. And, and to have a role where you are leading the people function of an organization and helping the organization deliver against its business goals, its strategic goals and create an incredible colleague experience that, you know, the impact that you can have there is really exciting.

And, and I want to be part [00:22:00] of that. And, and I think that because I know why I want. I’m far more comfortable in saying it now. I think that if it was just about the title, I’d probably be less so. Yeah. And that, you know, and it could be a chief HR officer of a. Massive corporate like BT, or it could be a chief people officer of a scale up.

I, I don’t, I don’t know, but I want to have the freedom and the autonomy and the, and the ability to lead an amazing team. I think that’s the other piece that really excites me. I want to lead an amazing team and, and, and I think that you can do that in that kind of role. And so, yeah, I’m because I’ve accepted the reasons that I want to strive for that.

I think I’m far more willing to be vocal about it.

Nicola: Yeah. And you see it’s that you have a real confidence about it, which I love. And I think, I think, like I said, there’s so many women that I work with that are. You know, someone I’ve started working recently, she’s in a great role already, but almost she feels a bit imposing being in that role.

But [00:23:00] actually if I can help her get past that, or we can help her together get past that. There’s no end to what she can do. She’ll be, she’ll be on the board exactly years. And so she, yeah, she then becomes a role model. She’s then fulfilling her potential for the business. She. Role modeling to her family and her children, what can be done.

And it’s just like, yeah, it’s almost like an interview that I did. Um, a couple of days ago, it was again, someone at 18. And she was just saying, it’s almost like as a woman at the top, you have responsibility to yourself, but you also have respons the job plus, which is sharing experience. How have you done it in a, in a very male dominated industry?

So it’s almost. I can get there, but it feels like we’ve. And tell me if, how this feels for you, but it’s almost like head and heart of combined, cause it’s a mission part of it, but it’s not just the head part. Oh, that be a great role and you know, great benefits. And I can, you know, my peers will be all the execs on the board.

It’s like, well, actually there’s a mission part behind it. I can create great experiences for my team, great [00:24:00] experiences across the organization. And I could deliver on the strategy.

Jules: Completely. Um, I think it absolutely is that combination of both and, and me accepting that and acknowledging it. Yeah. Um, I do think, I, I think the piece you just said then on, on the role modeling is also the other piece of this.

I work in my, in my team and in the wider digital HR team, there are some amazing HR VPs and talent professionals and learning professionals. They’re brilliant. And they. Earlier on in their career. And I know I’m gonna work for them one day. I’m sure I am. Cuz some of them are just so fantastic. And I want them to see the likes of me saying this and, and, and striving for this and you know, and, and writing about that.

And I want ’em to know they can do that too, just as much as I want my children to watch it. And, and for them to feel that they can, you know, sort of take hold of their career and, and do what they want to do and achieve what they want to achieve. I want, you know, I want my, my team to do that as well. And that’s really important to.

Yeah,

Nicola: absolutely. Absolutely. And why do you think some women struggle to talk about that ambition? [00:25:00] And we kind of have to, I mean, even clients, I were kind of, you know, really pulling out of them. And what, what do you actually want? Like where do you, if we take away some of that imposter, oh gosh. Who I to do that?

Where, where, what title gets you excited? What area of the business do you just think? Oh my God. I’d love that.

Jules: Yeah. I think that some people struggle to talk about it. Um, I think there’s, there’ll be different reasons for me. I think there’s one, which is people being judged for it because they aren’t focusing on the right things on, you know, in, in some people’s minds, they might not be focusing on the right things.

And, and if they’re thinking about that, then are they putting enough time and effort into. If they have caring responsibilities, you know, such as children. Yeah. Are they putting enough time into that? And some of them may, you know, they may be like me, they may have experienced at the school gates before, um, mum say, oh, I haven’t seen you in a while.

And you know that stuff and it pulls on you and it just sort of, every time you hear something like that, it’s a little step back. It’s a little bit like, Ugh. And so I think some of them will struggle with that. I think that for others it’s it’s that [00:26:00] you don’t know and that’s okay. You don’t know what you wanna do yet.

Um, you know, conversations with a colleague at the moment and, and. And they’re a bit of a turning point. They’re like, I don’t know if I want to go for the big job. Yeah. Or if I want to stay at this at this level for a while, and you also have to be comfortable in, if that’s what you wanna do, if you wanna stay, you have to be comfortable saying that as well.

I’m really happy at the level that I am and doing the kind of job that I am. And I think that there’s, um, I think we’ve got sort of two, two schools of thought the ones that feel like they can’t say that. Cuz then it. I’m not ambitious and people won’t respect me. Um, or those who are unwilling to say, I want that.

Um, yeah. And I’m gonna work really hard for it because people will judge them and that’s, you know, there’s no right answer. People are gonna judge you, you know, regardless of what you do in anything you do in life. And I’m, I’m quite thick skin. So it doesn’t bother me. If people wanna judge me. That’s absolutely fine.

And I’m not everybody’s cup of tea and that’s okay. but people have to get comfortable with, [00:27:00] you know, where I sit on this and what I feel and believe and want to do. Mm-hmm might not be what. Joe blogs wants to do, and they might have a, have an opinion about it. Yeah. And you have to get okay with that.

Yeah.

Nicola: I think you’re right. I think for some people they really don’t know. And I think for some people, the fear of judgment, especially. Yeah. If you think of some of the language of, for, you know, for a man to be very ambitious, it’s like always so driven and it’s really positive for a woman. It’s. Well what’s happening at home.

it’s just kind of like,

Jules: well, is that difference? Yeah, completely. And actually, you know, that, that’s an interesting point. I, um, I’ve grown up through my career hearing some, um, I mean, I get the same feedback regularly, L less so now, cuz I’ve worked on it, but the, um, Being my directness and my, my willingness to be honest.

And, and, and now actually it’s coined more as you know, I’m courageous and I’m I’m. Yeah. Um, I challenge the status quo actually through the early stages of my career. It was, it was the thing that was holding me back. And for sure, I, you know, I could, I definitely needed to hone it a [00:28:00] bit because sometimes I can deliver a message quite harshly, but it didn’t feel like my male counterpart, who I saw doing the exact same thing and probably.

You know, a bit more direct and a bit harsher. Yeah. I didn’t see them getting the same feedback and feeling like it was holding them back. And that’s, that’s always been a huge frustration for me. And I, you know, it’s, it’s that age old thing of your greatest strength is also your biggest blind spot. Um, and, and you do have to learn to hone these things and, and make them work in the right environment and at the right time.

But it’s, um, I do, I still think that bias. Canon is there, you know, it, it, it does come to light for people. And it’s something that I really watch out for across, across the people that I’m working with, both in business, partnering from a HR perspective, but also with my team, the different styles and making sure that we’re not penalizing because they, they have a different style that doesn’t necessarily quite work and, or, you know, do we really challenge ourselves?

[00:29:00] If a male was saying it, would we have the same reaction? Um, yeah. You know, if, if one of the, yeah, but, um, I think it’s definitely still there a bit.

Nicola: Yeah. Yeah. I think so as well. And I think just that, I think there’s almost like a different set of languages and words for men. Like if a. If a man and it’s just like, you know, again, I’m not an anti-man, this is not to put my hand.

Jules: This is, you know,

Nicola: part of where we are in the corporate world. And part of, you know, what I’m trying to help change is if a man bangs his hand on the desk, he’s passionate. But if a woman gets emotional and upset, It’s over emotional in a negative way. Yeah. But the passion is fine. Cause he’s like, oh my God, he’s so committed and driven.

Look at the passion. And it’s like, woman’s sobbing in the corner. It’s like, oh, emotional. Dunno what to do here. Yeah. Shouldn’t be not appropriate. Well, it’s, it’s banging, banging your fists on table appropriate.

Jules: No, and I, I definitely, you know, I, I like to think less so, but I’ve definitely seen that through, um, through my career and lab BT, but it’s not immune to it.

I think what we are doing is we [00:30:00] we’ve now got, you know, What I see is a lot more female leaders at the top. Um, just on our board, you know, we’ve got a chief digital and innovation officer, who’s female, chief people, officer who’s female, our general council’s female. And I’m sure I’m missing, you know, one or two, cause you’re seeing a bit more, you know, a bit, a bit more balance at the top, not enough, but they’re working on it.

And, and, and I think, you know, we’re starting to see a shift there, but. I think telco, especially, you know, it’s, it can be quite traditional and we’re really trying very hard at BT to get out of that traditional ways of doing things. But, um, I think sometimes you still do see a bit of that and that’s yeah.

That’s. Hard, but yeah, you know, they need more of us to be challenging it and it comes back a bit to, you know, why I think they like me at BTS because I am challenging it. Um, yeah. And, and saying what I see and, and, and calling it out and yeah,

Nicola: well, that’s part of almost it’s that role plus responsibility, isn’t it, uh, calling out or challenging or that mentality of if, if this doesn’t work or it’s not appropriate, why, why are we [00:31:00] still here?

Jules: Why are we yeah. Yeah, I love

Nicola: that. And I love the bit that you said about this was something else that came out of our first interview was just around. If people have quite a different skillset that isn’t recognized or not a different skill set, but just something that isn’t recognized within a media.

Or they said something brilliant within a meeting or that presentation they get was so confident. And so, you know, covered everything was just brilliant, really impactful, but it might be someone that comes out and reflects over a day or so, and then comes up with the most brilliant idea. How can, if, if, if anyone’s listening and they’re more in that my skill set is different and not easily as recognized or known, how can they keep progressing and moving up?

Jules: Yeah. I think firstly believe in yourself that you can. Um, because I think sometimes, um, from, from my experience, what I’ve seen is people discount themselves. You know, I’ve never struggled with it. I get my, you know, um, I dunno whether you pick this up, but I get myself heard. Um, and, and I’m not a reflector, I’m a bit in the meeting.

[00:32:00] You’re gonna get exactly what’s on my mind. Yeah. Um, and that’s, you know, that’s not the perfect answer either. Um, so I think. They need to understand what their skillset is and they need to believe in it and they need to have people around them that are telling them that, um, yeah. And embracing those differences, um, because it can’t, it can’t be those who shout loudest, get, you know, get the.

Get the job or get the, you know, the work done or they get all the exciting things. That’s not the way it works. Or if it is then that’s broken in my team, we’ve got some brilliantly diverse people in terms of their thinking, their diversity of thought their, their approach to how they would do something, the same thing, but how they would do it is really different.

And so it creates an ability to have a great conversation and for collaboration, where we create brilliant options and ideas. And then, you know, we work through what the, what the right one is. And that’s so important. I think that if we take the example of introverts and, and reflectors, you know, can get shouted [00:33:00] down, you can get talked over, know that what you have to say.

Isn’t, isn’t nothing. And, and I’m sure that because you’ve taken the time to think about it, it will have value. Um, And, and I think that the best thing they can do is contract with those few key individuals that they have to, you know, that they deal with that other stakeholders and say, this is how I work.

And, and, and yeah, this is my style and, and what I think you are gonna get from me when I think you’re gonna get the best from me. It’s gonna be after I’ve had, you know, I’ve heard the information, I’ve heard the discussion. Yeah. I’ve gone away and, you know, 24 hours later I’ll have reflected and I’ll have something to.

And so that means maybe we shouldn’t make decisions there and then in the meeting. Yeah. Um, because you might miss some of my really useful insights. And I think doing that contracting is really important. I don’t think enough to love that, to do it. And, and I, I think, you know, I wish they knew that they had the permission.

If, if people were saying that to me as, as their leader, I’d want to really [00:34:00] respect that. And I think also, you know, you’d have to call out. There are times when we can’t wait to make the decision and that that’s okay as well, but let’s all. Open and honest and understand where each other is coming from and that what you run the risk of is people feeling like they aren’t valued.

Yeah. And like their voice doesn’t matter. And then you just miss out on some really brilliant thoughts and

Nicola: that’s, that’s a shame. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s just almost that I remember in corporate world, if I moved, when I moved to new roles. And I think as you get to understand yourself more and more as a progress of my career, it’s almost like this is, this is my recipe.

This is the best of me. Yeah. As my leader, my manager, my boss, this is what I

Jules: need. Yeah. So, yeah. And for those that don’t know yet, make sure that you’re asking for the feedback like that. Yeah. I, um, I’m really guilty of, I hate positive feedback and I can’t sit in a session with my boss and him give me like, this is what your great time makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.

but I really like to hear what I need to work on. It’s important that you do hear the stuff that you’re also really good at because yeah. Um, [00:35:00] especially early on. Career where you’re learning what it is that you are good at and where your skill set lies and, and how your style might bring certain value to the organization.

Um, it’s the people around you that you are working with regularly, who can, who can share that insight with you, um, or give you permission to believe what you’ve been thinking in your head? I think I might be, yeah. Quite good at this. Yeah. But I, I don’t know. And, and so I, I think really seeking that feedback and, and for those, you know, In management roles, leadership roles, giving the feedback, even if they’re not asking, they might not be asking, cuz they’re too nervous to ask or they don’t wanna add another thing to your to-do list, et cetera.

Give the feedback like yeah, absolutely. Share those positive, the positive and the developmental. Yeah. Cause there might be people like me that don’t like the positive. Yeah. There need to hear it. Yeah. I love that. I like, I love the positive they, oh, tell me more.

Nicola: but I also, the other part of that for me is also, I think sometimes when I work with women, it’s.

I don’t know if this is brilliant, because I [00:36:00] find it so easy. I’m like, you are brilliant at this because you find it easy because you’re excited. Exactly. Because you’re in the moment cuz time flies, like don’t underestimate something because you are great naturally at it or you’ve developed it and honed it.

Don’t

Jules: undervalue it. Yeah, that’s a great point. So it’s almost like

Nicola: they kind of step past, it’s like, well, that can’t be any good, cuz that’s so easy. It’s

Jules: like, that’s the reason why it doesn’t take any energy. Yeah. Yeah. Because you’re so good at it already.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. So if someone at the moment is kind of struggling with, and I think just go back to point from ear earlier and.

Just, I was talking to a client today, actually. And it was just around for her not having clarity on what’s next and almost giving herself permission just to be in what she’s doing for the time. Yeah. And she’s gotten some new responsibilities in a new area. It’s just that coaching around, giving yourself time to breathe and really just grow to where you already are before.

I think I see a [00:37:00] lot of ambitious women. It’s like, what’s next? What’s next? It’s like, but what more can you get from where you are right now? And give your brain permission just to be in the now rather than the next thing and like creating, oh, what’s my next

Jules: step. What’s my next career move. Yeah. And, and that’s a great point.

I’ve been really guilty, um, throughout the majority of my career of just being focused on what is next and you sort of miss the, you miss the now and you miss all of the brilliant stuff that is happening in the now. And I’ve, I’ve calmed down a bit on that since I led on the, on the creation of the digital unit, because it was, it was so big and it was so exciting.

You know, there was a bit of, if I think about what’s. I’m gonna be a bit depressed, cuz how is anything gonna be as good as this anyway? Yeah. Um, so really learning to embrace that, um, in the moment was, was important for me. I think that what you can do is be thinking about the what’s next from a, what do I want to be learning and where do I, you know, what do I wanna know?

What do I want to make sure I have in any role that I do in the future? The things that are really important to me, the things that align with my values, um, or the key experiences [00:38:00] I want. I think you can be thinking about that without focusing on. What is the job I need to have next. And I that’s, you know, that’s the position I’m in at the moment for sure.

Am I, am I thinking about, and talking with my boss around. What would I wanna do next? What kind of things would I wanna be learning? What, what space would I want to move into? We having those conversations, I don’t have a role lined up that I’m going to in, you know, a year’s time or whenever it may be, but thinking about what I’m working on right now and that, you know, the really exciting deliverables that I’ve got and, and wanting to make sure I have the time to deliver on those.

But at that point, Then what would get me excited? Yeah. So that I don’t have the come down that, you know, I, I risked with the, with the last project. Yeah. And I think it’s okay to be thinking in that. Rather than obsessing around what the role will be. Yeah. Because you know, that role might not come up like it.

Yeah. You can’t, it might make

Nicola: something completely different that you just exactly cause of the title, but actually it is, you know, it’s

Jules: all the things you wanted. Exactly. So I think it’s more about what, yeah. What’s important to [00:39:00] you. What do you wanna learn? And, and how can you learn that to really think about the, yeah.

The what’s. Yeah,

Nicola: just a couple of final questions. One was just around. What do you think organizations can do to really help women just foster their ambition and speak about it and create that environment of it’s. Okay.

Jules: Yeah, I think spotlight a bit more. I think that we’re probably still, you know, not giving women the opportunity to come in and share there.

This is my ambition, this, this was my ambition and this is how I’ve worked throughout my career to get to here. And I, I think that we do a bit of that. Points in time. Normally it’s because there’s some sort of gender equality month or something like that. And then, you know, and then people get wheeled out rather than it being part for the course.

And, and I think we should be sharing more of that and organizations need to be creating the forums to do it. I think that also we just need to be focusing on how do we get more balanced, uh, leadership across the top. And I’m not just, I don’t just mean a, um, our board [00:40:00] level, but at our MD level and director levels, its own BT.

As an example, in your sort of senior management teams getting. A more reasonable balance of female leaders, because that way it will just naturally happen. Yeah. Because people will see more of these individuals in roles. And I think in BT where, you know, we’re on the, on the tipping point of that, I think we’ve made some great progress.

Um, and that’s really exciting for me to see as, as somebody who is still, you know, wanting to grow their career and develop and watching these incredible leaders and, and also seeing some of their flaws. I think that’s another really important piece, actually, Nicola, I think seeing that they’re not perfect.

I work really closely with our chief digital and in. You know, I’ve been lucky enough to be exposed to her. And I think there’s incredible things about her, um, that I really respect. And then I also see when her passion overtakes and, and she can become quite emotive and, and what that maybe does to the audience, or, you know, you see some of those things and you’re like, okay, they’re not perfect beings.

Yeah. And, and actually that’s a learning in itself. You don’t have to be perfect and you’re probably never, ever gonna be perfect. And if you are. [00:41:00] Yeah, well, that sounds a bit disconcerting to me but, you know, I think seeing more of that and, and people understanding that perfection doesn’t exist is really important.

I

Nicola: love that. I love that. And do you have a final message for our audience today?

Jules: Honestly, I think, you know, it’s, it is the theme of today. I think it’s just embrace your ambition, whatever your ambition is, and it doesn’t have to be being chief HR officer as an example. It doesn’t have to be an ambition about.

Your work environment, just own what you want and, and what you want to be, and, and be comfortable with that. And, you know, the sooner you get comfortable with that, the sooner other people will, you know, you’ll feel able to share it and other people will embrace it or not. And that’s their problem. But yeah, I think just, just, yeah.

Own it be accountable for it and don’t be afraid of it.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And just it’s for you. It’s it’s, what’s what’s right for you at that point in time. So what chapter of your life that you’re in? So

Jules: exactly. Yeah.

Nicola: Oh gosh. I could talk to your day. That’s been amazing. Thank you [00:42:00] so much. Been really thank you.

Um, Obviously people want to follow you on LinkedIn. So we’ll Papa linked your blog, um, into the show notes. So brilliant. So people can have a look at that. Cause that was a really honest account of being a, being in the role that you’re in and being a mum of three and

Jules: yeah, mm-hmm it was definitely honest.

Yeah, absolutely.

Nicola: But thank you so much for your time today. That’s just been absolutely brilliant. I’ve love

Jules: that. No, it’s been great. Thanks so much ni. You’re so

Nicola: welcome.

If you love what I have to say, and you like to find out more about working with me, easiest way to do that is to book a, get to know you call. So there’s a link to that in the show notes, I can help you through working with your organization to help close the gender pay gap through women’s leadership program.

To help empower your women at the top to be more influential, impactful leaders, and really own their leadership identity. Or I can create workshops around confidence around emotional intelligence, creating a career strategy or developing your [00:43:00] own leadership identity. Or I can work one to one or group coach your senior leaders to help them to overcome a very specific problem, or just again, really own their own leadership identity.

Or I can work with you one to one. I do work with a small number of private clients, and you can work with me either on my shorter focus coaching program, where we pick one specific thing and we just really focus in on it and help you to move past it. Or my deep dive final five VIP program. Which really gets the root cause of what’s holding you back and also helps you to create a very, very clear idea of what you want for the future.

And within that, your leadership identity, the results that I get from clients are as varied as they are brilliant. I’m incredibly proud of them. So some examples, my client being promoted twice within the six months they worked with. Another client being invited to join the board. Another client being offered a brand new role that wasn’t available to [00:44:00] anyone else with a big promotion and a big pay rise and a client that was pushed out of an organization to then being offered three dream roles that they could choose from.

And finally a client that decided that the corporate world wasn’t for her anymore and helping her to re get really, really clear on what she wanted and sell a new company that she’s absolutely in love with. If you are not quite ready to work me yet, that’s absolutely. Okay. You can download my overwhelmed Onfi guide, which is.

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So that’s a great way to in touch and a few quotes. My clients, I can talk about what I do all day. I absolutely love it. One client said, well, thank you for the transformation. Who I am now at home and at work is who I am [00:45:00] meant to be. I can feel it. And that difference is just incredible. Thank you for what you do, Nick for another client who just stepped into a new exec director role.

Her quote was, it felt like I was wearing a coat that didn’t fit. It was a coat that was new. That didn’t quite fit me, that I didn’t feel that I was good enough for now. I step proudly stand tall and proud of who I am wearing that coat of leadership. I am confident to speak up. I am the right hand woman of the CEO, and I have that coat that just looks great and I feel it fits.

And I am just incredibly empowered leader. So thank you so much. So if you are looking to get some help, just to be that most impactful and influential leader or help women in your organization, by closing that gender pay gap, do book a, get to know you call me all the details of this or in my show notes.

I can’t wait to work with you. Um, I thank you for listening.