Nicola: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the female leaders on fire podcasts. Um, I’m gonna start to not use that name anymore because we are now officially renamed as women at the top of telecoms and tech. I’m your host I’m Nicola ley. I am the coach worker women at the very top of organizations and aspiring future leaders.

Helping them to find their fires. So find that excitement, that purpose and that passion to have more impact and more influence and become a real force for good driving, positive change in organizations. So today, um, we have a male guest on today and this is someone that I’ve followed online for. Quite a while now that it’s just so real and raw and honest that I just, I love how he shows up.

And I love how she, he’s so honest about living with mental ill health, having a [00:01:00] personality disorder, PTSD and ADHD, but how he’s also become a really incredible leader, a very, very young age and is leading an organization to greater Heights than they’ve ever been before. But within that leadership, not following any traditional leadership models or ways that he feels he should behave, but actually just being raw, being honest, being truthful, being himself and showing up like that every day for the good days where he’s flying and for the not so good days where he needs some support or he needs a little bit of space and time.

And actually what that’s created in the organization is that that culture of openness, that culture of understanding and empathy. And being able to be vulnerable that has led that organization to be performing at his best that is ever done. We’re interviewing today, Jake Morrison, but I really love his positive energy.

I really love how honesty is and he just answers the question. And I also just love how his. His style of [00:02:00] leadership is him being completely true and real he’s being himself. This is almost beyond authentic leadership. This is leadership. Just, you are showing up with how you are feeling. You’re showing up with empathy and understanding, but you are also showing up with vulnerability and sharing the truth of what’s going on for you.

And that’s when you are at your most powerful, because you set that as a culture, you create that role model for everyone else in your organization. And for me, all of this resonated with me because that’s what I teach. And that’s what I coach. That’s how I believe a leader can have the most impact when they bring and they show up with everything that they have, the good and the bad and the black and the white and the gray and everything in between.

And that is what Jake does incredibly well. That has led him to great success at a young age. And I can’t wait to see what he does as his career develops. So be prepared today for some real honesty and some truth talk, and also be prepared today for discussion about mental health issues, which I think again, is super [00:03:00] so important just to normalize, um, the conversation.

And I, we both discuss mental health challenges that we’ve had. So, um, yeah, so today’s episode might be an emotion one, you might wanna grab some tissues, but yeah, I’m so grateful that Jake came on and this is a really great episode. So yeah. Go and grab a couple, sit down, have a listen and let me know what you think.

Um, all my details are in the show notes. I’m super excited for you to listen. Thanks so much. Um, enjoy the episode. Bye. So today I’m very excited cuz I’ve got a guest on the podcast and this is someone that I’ve been, um, Kind of following on LinkedIn for quite a while now. And I just, I love his honesty. I love his openness and I just, I love what he’s achieved and achieving.

And I’m always really keen, even though this is about women at the top of organizations, I’m always keen to kind of make this a bit more balanced and bring some more menos of show as well. So I was really happy when they’re probably a bit late notice, but he’s here today and I’m really excited. So I’ve got Jake Morrison with me today.

So hi, [00:04:00] Jake. Hi, Nicole. Good to have you here. Really excited to have you here today. So just to introduce Jake before he introduces himself. So Jake is 29, he’s from Liverpool and he’s a chief executive at citizens, vice woken in Shire. So near where I used to live actually lovely part of the country. So 18, he was the youngest elected politician in the UK, which is just incredible joining Liverpool city council in 2011 and working for a member of parliament at 19.

Um, he’s open about living with mental health, having emotionally unstable precise disorder, PTSD and ADHD. So he is working to raise awareness and increased people’s knowledge, skills, and confidence. I became a mental health first aid instructor, and that I was trained over 540 people in 15 months, which is amazing.

And just a bit of an aside, it’s a course that I did about six, seven weeks ago, just as part of some work that I’m doing with an organization. And it’s just, it’s really great for. Understanding people’s what her mental health conditions, they might have [00:05:00] been able to support them, knowing where your boundaries lie.

It’s just, yeah, really, really powerful. So I was decided when he is decided to join me today, but we’re gonna be talking about a lot of what teaching coach in leadership is really around teaching and helping people to really, truly, and understand themselves to then be a leader as who they are. So it’s almost, I think the word used a lot, which I kind of get, but I don’t wholly wholly agree with and love is the word authentic.

And for me, it’s almost beyond authentic leadership cuz you are leading just, this is who I am. This is all of me with, you know, the black and the white and the gray and everything in between. So that’s what we’re gonna kind of be focusing on today. And I’m really excited to see, um, what we cover in our conversation.

So welcome Jake.

Jake: Thank you.

Nicola: Um, so Jake, can you just, um, I know I’ve given, I’ve gone for your bio and stuff, but it’s quite an unusual position that you’re in at quite a young age, isn’t it to be chief exec of systems, vice bureau, and still be, you know, this side of 30, which was for [00:06:00] me was quite a while ago now.

Um, but can you just give, give us a little bit of your story, cuz you’ve done so many interesting things, how you came to be doing this work that you’re doing now and reach a position that you are, you are.

Jake: Yeah, it’s interesting. Cause I suppose it then all weirdly links back into the mental health journey.

Um, yeah, but I suppose we all have a mental health, so we could all attribute what we do to mental health. Well, I just remember particularly, you know, at school or secondary school, um, I just hated, you know, I hate structure and school and whatever. When I was there, I spent more time after I left school, though, going back to school to talk to young people than I did when I was at school originally myself, but, um, was just a sense of injustice with everything.

So yeah, I, I even remember and it’s really odd. I don’t even know how it came about. Someone must have said something about their parents. Wasn’t able to get on the bus with a pram. It must have been in year seven or something. It was a math class and I on, on the maths book that I had just wrote a petition.[00:07:00]

Oh. And passed it down the class for people to, oh, wow. It was a beaver buses. That was a little book. We didn’t actually send it anywhere, by the way. What’s year seven. I’ve been 12 years old. We didn’t end to send it anywhere by the way. But everyone filled it in and signed. I did get kicked out of the, the class though.

I said, cause I just didn’t really fit in with school. But just that sentiment just straight away was it was obviously wrong that someone wasn’t able to get on a bus cause they had a pram. Right. So yeah. Then I was like really interested in sort of a sense of. Of justice then it’s sort of long story, but I ended up going to sixth form, but left due to a, a real fallout with one of the teachers who, uh, again, which is one of the stories I’ve put on LinkedIn, but because I’m, I’m quite loud and I’ve got ADHD of which it was never, um, spotted until two years ago, actually.

But, um, so I didn’t know at the time, but, um, bit of a class clown, and there was a new class that was in with us because the teacher was off and it was something to do. Oxygen and whatever, and do were blown up balloons to seeing how much you could hold. And [00:08:00] someone popped it on purpose. And the teacher just lashed out completely and made me stand up in front of everyone and was telling me that, um, I’ll never be anything in life.

And I wanted to be a paramedic. That was my big, big goal at school was be a paramedic. And, um, she just went into this big thing about how, if her dad was dying and I turned up, she’d turn me away. And then she just laugh at me, all this really horrible stuff. Yeah. So again, that sense of justice was more straightened into the head teacher’s office.

He was in the middle of a meeting with local authority and I told him he had to sort his teacher’s own all this. And I was just never afraid of saying what I felt needed to be done. So then to turn it back into positives, like, right, I wanna. And do something now I want, if I’m gonna leave school, I’m not just gonna sit at home.

I’ll do something so applied to be a healthcare assistant in the hospital, hoping to go to a and E so that I could become a . Yeah. And ended up going on the infectious diseases unit became a union rep just again, out sort of want to support people had no prior awareness of politics really. And then obviously union are quite political.

So through that then was put in a [00:09:00] party campaigning for them. Uh, and then it just really was one thing after another day, they offered for people to stand for election. I thought, again, I might as well just go for it. I’m I’m interested in it. And everything just worked along the way really and fell into place.

So it was unexpectedly then elected, I would say 18 books. Yeah, the was elected. So how did that feel? It was incredible. It was really, really good because like, I really did try. So you often in politics, there’s a term called paper candidate, which is to make sure that the party has got a chance to be voted for, will put you.

You know, you’re not gonna get in. So that’s what they call a paper candidate. You’re you’re a candidate on paper only, not real. Yeah. Not a real sort of competitor. Um, and the person I stood against was the former leader of the council who was also a Lord, Lord Meg story. And, um, I campaigned a lot and I, I wanna say campaigned, I’m not party political.

So it wasn’t, that’s why I haven’t mentioned the party, cuz I really wasn’t interested in necessarily I had the [00:10:00] values obviously of the party, but I wasn’t interested in what the line was. It was more that sense of, you know, want to support people want people’s lives to be better. I’ve grew up in a house of domestic abuse since the age of six, really that I could remember the earliest domestic abuse issue.

Um, so everything for me was just, I want people’s lives to be as nice as it can possibly be. And being a counselor felt like that might be a, and it was a really nice way of being able to do that. But obviously what, what, what happens then with politics is kind of status, right? So it become with a bit of power and status and it’s all quite official and yeah, and, and.

You’ve got that side where you can make things happen, but the party political bit was you wanna win just to win over the, the, the other party. You wanna be better than the other party. And that’s not my, yeah. My thing was never about wanting to be better than, or make, bring someone else down. It was more it’s like Obama, I suppose.

Isn’t it. It’s Obama wanted just win because he wanted to give hope not because everyone else was rubbish. It’s

Nicola: not about defeating the other person it’s about making lives better.

Jake: Yeah. There’s a lot of respect [00:11:00] between those two candidates in 2008 saying, you know, we’re both decent people. We just have very, you know, few different values that we wanna lead the country on.

And it was the similar me on a council level was just, I wanna help people. And, and I’m really not bothered them, whether Mike story who are, by the way I got on very, very well with, um, since, since that election, it wasn’t about him then being bad at all. It was just about me wanting to genuinely help my community.

So when I left politics, um, at 22, um, yeah, so I retired say that’s incredible, but it’s true. I’ve done that. But honestly Cola. It was, and, and it is funny because, um, so I worked for certain device at the time. So what I decided to do was get a job that I’ll, it’ll bridge me over leaving politics, and then I can figure out what I wanna do.

And, and the 20 sector was, was one of those things. Yeah. And the BBC did an article saying youngest politician to retire at, at 22. And all of the comments on Facebook were who’s on earth. Does this guy think he is, he’s done nothing in his life and now he’s retired, blah, blah, blah, blah. But obviously it was [00:12:00] saying actually not gonna be in politics anymore.

Not that I’ve got a pension and I’m now. Yeah, I was, cause I know

Nicola: you’ve retired forever. Right.

Jake: But they hadn’t genuinely picked up on what I was actually talking about. But yeah. So officially, obviously left politics then, and then join vice. And I, I volunteered for charities until I was 14 and particularly working with autistic children.

Yeah. To get them into mainstream youth centers. It was then just like this realization again, which is why I say sort of things fell into place. You can make so much more of a difference in a charity and not have to, you know, have the party political land all the time and go out and leaflet and knock on people’s doors and all of that stuff you have to do, you can make a huge difference by, you know, having values, align to try like device, which is about helping people move forward with their problems.

Yeah. And just felt like a huge natural fit. Really.

Nicola: Yeah. I love it. I love it. And how did you get, how did you progress up to being the chief exa cause obviously that’s happened relatively

Jake: quickly. Yeah. So, um, as, so 22 was when I first worked for sentence device, but then I was on and off. So, uh, [00:13:00] worked for mind for a little bit, um, doing some community resilience and suicide prevention work in Cambridge and, and, and a couple of other charities.

And then. I was trainer manager again for one of the sit vice great Manchester. And this job just came up in, in woken gum, and it was a bit of a similar salary to where I was on. So it didn’t feel like I was then trying to make a huge argument to, to jump to another level. But I’ve, I’ve just, I’ve always wanted to naturally lead and, and, and try and motivate people to do stuff, uh, not, and, and to one block things.

So I didn’t, it was never about going, I wanna be, you know, CEO at 26 cause that’s, I was 26 at a time. Yeah. I wanna be CEO at 26 and I wanna, you know, be you’re gonna be a retiring CEO. Exactly. Yeah. exactly gone by

Nicola: 30. I’ve done, I’ve done the CEO thing politicians.

Jake: Exactly. But you know, it was just more, you know, this is a again power, cause it is an element of power.

Yeah. Is about an opportunity to then sidetrack and make things happen. Um, we have 80 volunteers, 20 staff, and it, my job is just to support them, to be able to more effectively do their jobs [00:14:00] by yeah. Blocking things, seeing a bigger picture. Uh, and that’s just what I absolutely love. So it’s almost

Nicola: like you’ve taken that.

Sense of justice and helping people. And you’ve just, it is gone. It’s grown as you’ve grown into that, that high, that, you know, that senior leadership role. Yeah,

Jake: definitely. Definitely.

Nicola: So as, as a leader now, and you’ve got this amazing back history, how, how does that story play into who you are as a leader?

Cuz there’s so many different elements and chapters to your life already at such a young age that it’s just really, how does that, how does that yeah. How do you bring that into the leader that you are today?

Jake: Well, I think there’s a couple of different layers to that answer. Isn’t there really? Because I suppose even when I joined this role three and a half years ago, people expect a CEO to be a certain way.

And you must talk about this. If you, if you hosted a female podcast, it must be a big discussion that you have anyway of yeah. What people expect a leader to look like me say, do yeah, absolutely not be emotional. Be, you know, be as resilient as you ever can be and whatever. [00:15:00] Yeah. And so faced all of those, those challenges as well as the age.

Of course, cuz soon as you go. Genuinely most of our volunteers, over 60 years old, they got a 26 year old coming in saying, here’s how I want you to now do your jobs. It’s not a great start, I suppose. So it was very conscious to, to, to just be open and say, look. I’m 26. Um, now the CEO here, well, here’s why I wanted to be CEO.

Here’s my background. You know, and, and again, I told about the domestic abuse family situation. Cause I say we never used certain device as a family. Never. I never even really knew about it. And, and there’s so many opportunities there where certain device could have helped change our lives. So. You know, mom ends up in hospitals, not working and she’s needing support with benefits within debt, you know, constantly running out of electricity.

And we had a top up meter loads. Those terms were, you know, there was, there was a, an entry point to need and charity support. And if we’d got into that, if that was sort of in [00:16:00] our face, should we say, or available to us really clearly, it’s just gonna changed the outcome for, for, for our family. And that’s what I was talking about.

I was saying, and that’s what you do every day. What you do every day is that we can look at the stats and we can actually, the impact of the work we have is, is saying to people, this isn’t how you need to live. Right. There’s another way being able to do this when people in the thick of. You often really can’t see the wood for the trees.

And, and, and that’s definitely the thing for me is, and it’s why I keep talking so much about mental health is because we, we just look at people and we do, and you’ll have heard this, the mental health first state course, cuz it’s talked about by the instructors, the wi with recovery, particularly family employers, others.

Change, as soon as they know you’ve got a diagnosis of something. Yeah. The perception of you, you’ve got bipolar suddenly there’s limitations on what you can and can’t do, right? Yeah. You’ve got a personal disorder. You’ve got depression, anxiety. You’ve tried to kill yourself. You’ve took an overdose automatically.

There’s a, a risk element. I can’t trust you now around medication for the rest of your [00:17:00] life because you’re talking overdose once when you were, you know, struggling in a crisis. So it was massively about trying to say. And you know, now 29, um, living with complex mental health conditions still live with suicidal thoughts on a regular basis, but still able to work still massively achieving in our organization.

Our organization is bigger than it’s ever been. And it’s it’s 45 year history. Well, more clients we’ve ever do, you know, mean. So it’s about them being able to say, it’s, it’s, it’s not about retro. It’s about saying actually this is how it can be for people. Yeah. But, um, but it is about, you know, then saying, and I was actually having a conversation with a colleague about this, this week that they they’ve been diagnosed with something.

And they were saying, well, how, you know, you, you are very open and you’ve got the flexibility, but. You know, am I gonna be able to be the same because I’m very, you know, I’m not a CEO, I’m I have loads of land managers. It depends on their relationship with me. Yeah. But whether they’re gonna be okay or not, and we just had this really war sort of conversation about how difficult that actually is.

Yeah. Because I don’t have a land manager. That’s [00:18:00] constantly scrutinizing what I do. That, that gives me the freedom to take risks. Right. So the, the, the fact that I can now say, cuz it was, again, we talked this morning to my team like this, we wrote off five 30, 8% more debt last year than four years ago when I joined to five 30, 8% more debt has been written off now and four years ago.

So kind of

Nicola: that amount, freedom. No,

Jake: how don’t come. Absolutely. For those. Absolutely. But if you don’t think about again, if I, if I had to constantly appeal to my land manager about every step I wanted to take, we probably wouldn’t have got there. Right. Not because it’s all down to me. It’s not, but the fact that I was able to make things happen for the team to be able to do that.

If I had to, had to articulate that there’s so many. So that would’ve just been stopped. Jake’s just, you know, he’s got ADHD, he’s passionately. He wants to do this. He wants to change the well, but there’s constantly then an element of, oh, maybe we just need to pause on that one reason. And the fact that I’ve had that reason to do it means that I’ve been able to then say to people, I know you had doubt, but here’s the outcome.

But when you’ve got someone constantly [00:19:00] over you checking your probation, you know, giving your targets and, and it’s very inflexible, then I have gotta, just massively appreciate that. That’s the sensitivity that people are working under. Yeah. So constantly just trying to put out that message, that if you give people the space, the time, the support just have genuine interest in, in understanding.

So. You know, I, I might not bounce out bed at nine o’clock in the morning to wanna go to a meeting. But again, that doesn’t mean that I’m a crap CEO, does it because the other CEOs get up at nine and have meetings in their suits and yeah, but

Nicola: you’re doing it your way, which is that, that real and true leadership, right.

Or actually today I’m feeling great, but actually yesterday it wasn’t such a good day for me. And, and absolutely I’m still me and I’m still overall delivering, but I’m, it’s natural ebbs, ebbs and flows. Isn’t it of, you know, no, no one feels like a hundred percent in it every single day, because that’s not a human experience.

A human experience is actually some days I’m not gonna feel like I want to do this, but some days I’m gonna just like, my [00:20:00] appetite is gonna be huge for it. And. And that’s that those are all okay. I was kind of really resonating when he was saying about, you know, being at that level of co begin, you effectively have that much more freedom.

But for me in corporate world, when I, I struggled with anxiety and depression after my marriage broke down. So I went into separation, then started quite a long divorce process and I was quite high functioning. I was still showing up to work and I, I, I just remember for such a long time, I would put on the, all the, this mask of going into work and just someone asked me how I was.

And I’d just say, fine know, someone asked how my weekend was and the truth was I hadn’t got out of bed for more than six hours. Cause it was horrific. And I, I didn’t want to, and I had no energy and I slept for 14 hours a night, but Monday morning I would still be up and dressing in there. But I, I still carried that heavy weight the weekend with me.

It was only when we got to the point, I, I felt like I was almost cornered in a meeting and my boss just saying, what is going on? Like. I, I get this SC sense from [00:21:00] you and I’m, I’m a huge empath, but I also, I think I just exude in emotion. I wear my heart on my sleeve and I then at that point I had to say that I’m really struggling and this has happened.

And actually I’ve been referred on for, uh, CBT counseling. I’ve been referred on to, um, I’ve been, um, uh, prescribed antidepressants. But for me, it’s like just, you know, like all, all your work is still in safe hands because I’ve been doing this for, I’ve been carrying this for a couple of years now. So, you know, just, yeah, but it’s, it’s so powerful for, to see you kind of, you know, flourish in that role with all of these things going on in your life.

They’re all part of you.

Jake: They are, and that’s the thing. They, they are all part of you and, and, and, and what, what, again, you’ll have heard on the mental health first aid courses. If you had a bad back, you’d automatically get the validation, the support, the, what do we need to do? Do we need to move your desk?

Do you need some, do we need to work from home? You know, all that sorts of stuff, the people fear. And even when they’ve got a boss that is really open [00:22:00] and cause even I have, I’ve had it in the three years I’ve been here. I’ve been open from day one and, and team have still sort of said, you know, I’ve had to wait and think about coming to you cause I’ve had really bad experiences with previous.

So that sticks with you. Doesn’t it? You, yeah. That stigma, that perception of, of, or previous discrimination that you’ve had is gonna stick with you about how people respond to it. Can I talk about on the courses that I do the, you do often pick up in office environments, don’t you, even if it’s just to try and be joking, oh, at this way, a difficult person on the phone, they’re a bloody nuisance to this, this, this, and that often got a mental health problem.

So the underlying tone of that is, you know, look, oh, there’s a difficult person to get that you sit there and you think, um, Maybe I wouldn’t want to be as open, but actually they probably would be really supportive. Right. They’re just, it’s the culture of the tone of the office. They thought it was better ban.

It’s not obviously appropriate, but yeah. Um, all people need to, you know, be able to do is give that validation to it must be really difficult for you. I, I don’t expect any of my team to go away and study what emotionally unstable personality disorder is, all the symptoms, you know, [00:23:00] when someone’s in a sign of crisis and whatever, but it is nice when someone comes in and goes, you know what?

It’s really difficult right now. Isn’t it. You kinda know you’re dealing with a lot and you need anything. And, and it happens every once in a while. Think, you know what? Isn’t that just lovely that someone just notices the, it is a bit crap. They’re not fixing it. They’re not telling you wheres you, they’re giving you

Nicola: space to be in it and just know that you’ve got the support there, or if you do need anything.

Jake: So, and that’s what, and that’s why, so we need, and, and this is why I keep coming back to our, our clients then about the communities we’re here to help. I absolutely feel that our team. Massively care. And, and I think they always have that. I dunno, it’s cause of me, but I think it’s changed and that it’s become much more to the front.

Cause again, one of the issues we had a couple years ago was it was first confessor. So a client comes in first one and I used to say, someone comes in about a park and fine and you know, they could pay it. They wanna pay airport. They want our help and spend an hour with them. The next person who comes in is domestic abuse can only come to us at lunch because every other bit of time is [00:24:00] accounted for.

You’re still with someone with a parking fan, can’t see them. They go lost an opportunity to support someone, such a vulnerable position. Yeah. I still couldn’t win that argument. It was first come first served. Now we bend over backwards first. So again, still wants to help, but it was still first come first served as we point now.

It’s no, no, no, no. They can wait. I’ll call you back and, and now I’m gonna help this. And I just love it. I love the it’s now got to a point where people just go, you know what? People, people do need help. We need to respect that people have different levels of need for support as well. Yeah. And we need to prioritize people and outcomes can be worse for some groups and, uh, and whatever.

And the whole culture then of the way we approach stuff has been embedded. And that’s surely the greatest thing for a leader. Isn’t it? It’s not that you get to say what you wanna say, but that others then do it when you’re not there. That’s that’s got to be the best sad God it’s got

Nicola: goosebumps hundred said it’s, isn’t it.

It’s

Jake: do I just know if I’m off next week that I don’t have to fear that we’re gonna miss suicidal calls because we haven’t picked up on the right messages from people you’ve created that too [00:25:00] scared to respond. Cause we say something wrong. We

Nicola: create that. Yeah. Think

Jake: all the answers. Yeah.

Nicola: I do think, you know, leaders have that important strategy, bigger picture, job, clearing roadblocks, all the brilliant things you’ve talked about.

But the biggest thing for me as well is just found they role model. The energy, they role model, the behaviors, they role model, the language, they role model, everything for everyone else at every single layer. And that is, that’s a huge part. It’s almost like, imagine it’s almost flowing into the entire organization from your leaders and actually for women that I work with, sometimes there isn’t that role model.

So it’s like, well, that’s, you know, step into that. You become the role model, you know, if you can’t see it become. On the flip side of, I can’t, if I can’t see it, I can’t be it. Yeah. And I love how that is almost that culture’s become from your example and from everyone around you, it’s just become part of, part of how it works.

Like, you know, almost like the heartbeat of the organization is there.

Jake: Yeah. And I completely agree with you and I think that’s, [00:26:00] again, what I’m trying to, cuz you know, there’s the bigger pictures you say of, cause I, I think I’ve, I’ve looked at some CEOs in the charter sector elsewhere cause you know what, you’re really, really good CEO, but maybe you just don’t have that ability to inspire and move people forward.

But you’re so good at the whole business plan and vision of what you wanna do. Probably not as great though, as an articulate in it and bringing people with you. And I wish a lot more leaders would go to know what that isn’t me, but as you’ve just sort of said, if to someone else is clearly showing that potential, that, that, you know, they’re really shine and give them the opportunity to do you know, you as a leader yourself, help all the people step up and say, you know what?

You’ve got lots of, I’ll still do all of the, you know, the, the board and stuff in the background that I need to do as. Support you to understand that more, but you are clearly a great people leader. Great visionary, yeah. Person. I want to give you the opportunity to really, with my sort of, you know, backend to be that person.

And I just don’t see it enough. I think what we often then see is we have to put people down because they’re out China and whatever. Yeah. [00:27:00] And again, that’s the whole point, isn’t it have been your whole authentic self to where, for me, it’s not about, you have to have all these vulnerabilities it’s that you can also just say, you know what, that, that isn’t, I, I don’t know the story of having to wake up in the morning and it’s freezing cold and not have any electricity, food, whatever, you know, and, and have to figure out what you’re gonna do.

But there are people that do, and there are people in my team that understand that, well, maybe they’re better to going to do the appeal for funding than just because you’re the CEO. So for example, radio interviews, I know this is way off on a tangent, but when we do radio interviews, yeah. They’ll always come to me and say, Jake, can we get you on music, Fox or whatever?

And I mostly say no, and it’s not to be rude. It’s that if they say Jake, can you come on and promote? So, and face always will do it. But if they say, can you come on and talk about the cost of living crisis and say, no, but our debt advisor can, because she’s the one who’s every single day going through everyone’s bills, listening to the fact they can’t afford food.

What’s more interesting to listen to is me with all the stats or someone who says, you know what, talking to Mary Day and this as well. [00:28:00] What’s going on, Mary L lives down the road from all of you who listening to this radio show, that’s what’s going on today. And that’s the thing again for me, I just get, you know, it’s not about going am the sea around the face of everything.

I’m gonna do everything for me. As I said, it’s about going to know what, how do we make all of this happen now? Do we connect all those dots together? Um, because I listen to radio would much more rather hear from identify certain from the CEO doesn’t ever do any debt work. Yeah. But I’m not crap. I just don’t do debt work.

So said, I can tell you all the stats, but if you don’t want the stats, if you wanna know the impacts, then speak to the people who actually do that work. Yeah, absolutely.

Nicola: Absolutely. And what difference do you think it’s made to your role as co and creating that incredible culture, which just gives me goose battles.

What role has your openness and honesty about everything that you’ve been through? Kind of, what impact do you think that’s. Because that said, that’s how I saw kind of saw you on LinkedIn, you know, your mental health journey and your love for mental health, for data stuff, and being so open and so honest.

Jake: What, so in terms of me or for the, for the team yeah. For

Nicola: the organization and you [00:29:00] know, where you, where you’ve bought it to now and yeah. How it’s grown and

Jake: developed. So for the organization, you know, I genuinely genuinely end up overhearing or then walking into a conversation where, where people have said, when they’ve particularly talked about someone about suicide or whatever, or Jake said, or, or I remember when Jake mentioned that this happened to him or, and you just go, isn’t that just again, people, even though they might not have ever emailed you, they might not have ever replied or acknowledged what you’ve said, but they’ve listened and they’ve gone.

Well, this is what has been said before. This is what we’ve done, or this is how we’ve approached it. And the fact that prepared to take this stuff on, because I just fear. So with things that we don’t necessarily know about, we put a lid on it. Don’t we? So we say hugely put a lid on it. Let’s fear factor around it.

Yeah. I haven’t seen that. So, you know, I’ve seen the benefits of seen the death, but I didn’t see that they couldn’t cope with the town. They’ve got depression and they’ve got low mood, but they’ve never got help for it. Cause I dunno what to do about that. Now people are prepared to have those conversations.

Now we’re not a mental health charity, but. We know the impact of money [00:30:00] and unstable housing. We know the impact of having a job can be on your recovery for mental health journey. So, um, it all interlinks and, and, and we shouldn’t just go let’s park that bit. Cause we’re interested in the, in the money side of stuff for the housing side or whatever.

And as say, that’s what I can confidently now say never, never happened. So when I first became a mental health first aid instructor, again, I a member, a conversation from someone saying, well, you’re not really gonna get many people actually want to do it. Even though being with or whatever, every single member of our staff, 20 staff have all mental health, first aid trained, and half of our volunteers, a mental health first aid train.

And no one’s been forced to go on it. Right. Nobody has been forced to go on it, but the uptake has been huge because again, they’ve all gone. We know, again, we don’t have to become medical professionals to just acknowledge that things are difficult for people. Yeah. We don’t have to be medical professionals to know that you should go to your GP.

If you’ve got issues about your mood and, and, and stress and anxiety, don’t need to be a medical professional to then say, do you know what? There’s a peer [00:31:00] support group down the road who yeah. Again, live in and breathe this stuff every day that it might just be really helpful for you to go, oh my God, that connects with me so much.

And that’s again, what is it sounds so simple to say it doesn’t it, but if you’ve never had that approach before, it’s so new to you because you’re so used to doing your bit of the job, your bit of someone’s life. And I’m trying to say, well, we need to look at people holistically. And that’s why I keep going back to the CEO bit.

Is it isn’t about me going out there and look at me, look at me. I’m CEO of mental health. I’m not the mental health CEO as I was the young council. You know, I’ve always. Some the, the, the position with something. So I was the young counselor. I was the young CEO or mental health CEO or gay CEO. And, you know, all these labels that then come with it.

Yeah. But actually, by being able to bring all of that. You get to say to people general, we don’t park the mental health bit as we come into it, we don’t right. We say, don’t we leave your stuff for the, you don’t no one leaves their baggage to the door. Even if they say they do it will still have an impact on them when they go to, as you said, it did with you.

Yeah. You know, you, you, you try to mask it, but it’s still gonna show in some way. [00:32:00] Cause you cannot leave your life at a door or a laptop or whatever. But by going today to people, this is life you don’t, you’re not only in need because you are then a service user of the charity. You can also then experience it, appreciate it, understand it.

By being someone who also helps those people, you can be a debt advisor who’s been in debt knows it. So I’ve met health conditions as adult is experienced all this before and you can help people and not have had that will have an appreciation, have empathy for people, um, that do. But as I said, I still think it feels still very new to people, um, that you, we still expect our CEOs to be a certain way.

We still expect our leaders to be a certain way. And if you look at COVID, actually that seems to give me that impression again, which was. We looked to lead us then to have every onset to what we were gonna do in COVID. Yeah. Whereas we said maybe a cross device, particularly in woken gum don’t know, but let’s figure it out.

Yeah. And I wanna do that with you. Right. So, so we met weekly for the first, you know, lockdown or whatever, and it was just, let’s figure this out as we go [00:33:00] along. Yeah. We can only plan the best we can, but have to figure it out. But as I said, know, other people will plan it and plan it and plan it and plan it and plan it and then not speak to their team because they’ve done everything they can, they don’t wanna necessarily, you know, see any negatives of it.

And for me, I just think by being able to be raw myself and say, you know, I don’t know everything it’s not about because I’m young. It’s not about because I’ve got mental health, but it’s because I don’t know everything. Yeah. So let’s work together on this stuff. But again, I’m the person who, as the leader is not afraid.

Challenge other authorities, funders. Yeah. You know, whoever to make things happen. And that’s where I think my position then comes into play is, is to open those doors to make things happen. But for the rest of us to all wanna work together, because we have that shared endeavor, which is people struggling our communities today, and we wanna do something about it, you know, and we wanna do something about it as soon as we possibly can.

We don’t wanna wait for someone to have the bailiffs out the door for them to say, oh, I wonder if setting device can help. We want them to look at a letter and go, I wonder if setting device can help before this gets [00:34:00] even worse. Um, and I think that’s what we’re massively able to do.

Nicola: Yeah. Oh God. So much that I love.

But what I’d love to come back to is almost when you were talking about, it feels like there’s a whole person to whole person thing here. And ah, the word authentic. I have a lot of mm-hmm trouble with, but it’s almost like because you are so open on this because you are, you talk about things that maybe aren’t talked about as a CEO.

Not, you know, in, in, in the past, it needs to be more because CEOs are human as well. Right. yeah, definitely. But because you’re so open honest, cuz you bring all of you to work. It’s almost like all your teams, then that’s the framework, that’s the culture you’ve created. So they then bring them whole, their whole sales to work as well and their whole person.

But that means when you then got your, your clients set in front of you, it’s like acknowledging actually we’re here to talk about your debt, but actually there’s a huge psychological pressure and you know, not feeling safe and feeling just yeah. Constantly worrying about it. So it’s almost like that [00:35:00] whole chain is kind of led by actually you being so open, honest, that’s just filtered down and it’s like, Ultimately, we’re all people and we all want care and connection.

And if our biggest fear, you go back to Tony Robbins model, our biggest fear is that we’ll be left alone and not be loved. Yeah. All you’re doing, you’re fostering that brilliant actually care and connection and that constant checking in with your team and them checking in with you to then that, that just falls down into how you are with your clients and your customers.

And

Jake: definitely, and, and again, what I would say is, um, so definitely right and open, honest communication. I said, including when I said things go wrong or don’t work out as I intended them to do or became more complex than we intended in the first place is just to be completely honest, focus. It, that’s definitely the key and to face a with, cuz I do think people, people start to have the hostility when you cover things up and when you’re not truthful with people and that’s, I said what we definitely don’t have.

Um, but, but what I wanted to say is we, you know, I also try to then make sure that I do take a step back and go. Maybe I’m only here and what I want to hear. Right. So [00:36:00] how do I take a step back and just make sure I can check in on what’s going on? So we start sending out the health and safety executive stress survey to industry survey by the health and safety executive for to a 35 questions in it.

And it’s all things like if I’m, you know, really struggling, I can approach my LA manager. Uh, my colleagues will help me. I’m bullied at work. I can take time off. I’m forced to work long hours, and the questions are both positive and negative so that you can’t just tick one. Um, and we actually found that, um, our stress risk factors for every one of the six key demands control relationships is very, very low.

Whilst our performance has said is higher than it’s ever been in the 45 years history. And it’s only growing year on year, we’ve got low stress levels. Massive production that support more,

Nicola: those stress lessons in a very stressful potential, and potentially

Jake: very stressful environment because you, you get a call one minute.

As I said that someone who says I’ve got no food eat right now, right now. And you need to help me because otherwise my kids and myself well need today. [00:37:00] So then I said, next, someone says, um, We genuinely have got an issue, you know, with X, Y, and Z to bought a washing machine it’s broken up, which is still very valid by the way.

But you go and shift from them without knowing that that’s the next call you’re gonna take on. It’s naturally stressful. You, I said, deal with a food bank issue. And then the next call is someone saying, you know what? I, I don’t think I could live anymore because it’s one thing after another, that’s going wrong for me.

And now I, they found all these debts that they didn’t know I had and, and whatever. And they’re able to just respond to that. And, and I said, no, not necessarily just bounce back and go, oh, this is great, but no, they’ve got someone they can talk to. Yeah. Know that we go take a step back. Cause you can only do what you can do.

We don’t say and set a hundred calls today. Right now we say, do your best. Right. And if that means we only answer 50% of the courses I done grade, if that means we answer 90 grade. Because there’s a narrative behind all of that stuff, isn’t there. Yeah. Uh, and that’s what we, that’s what, again, I’m always the one saying I’ll go away and take the flag or promote it or push that message and why we’ve done it that way.

And that’s, what’s really [00:38:00] key. And, and the reason I wanted to raise it is not again, so we great. It’s the. Often the feedback then is, oh yeah. But when you start talking about yourself and emotions and feelings, you only end up focusing on that, you know, and for wellbeing, you need to buy a pool table and give people, you know, exactly, exactly.

And like, actually that’s not the picture of wellbeing, but, but that is what I see. And it’s why LinkedIn is, you know, a beast in itself. Isn’t it? Because yeah, the best post are that, oh, I gave my team everyone candy philosopher today, and it’s just the best organization that’s ever existed, but actually they’ve got high turnover and, and whatever that’s going on.

Um, but actually we can say we are performing really well. That means we’re helping more people. We’ve got better outcomes for our communities. But our team are not sacrificed for that. Yeah. You know, they know that we support them. They, we, they know that they’re able to come to us in any town. They know that we know that every day isn’t just an okay day.

And if I can say really sorry, guys, I can’t come to this meeting at 10. Cause I don’t feel like they know that they’ve got a bit of [00:39:00] opportunity to do the same as well. Yeah. And I actually that’s really, really important cause regardless of having mental health conditions or not, we all have a mental health.

As I said, that means we all have a bad day and we don’t wanna let a bad day affect the rest of our career or future in organization. Do we? So

Nicola: yeah. And how brave is it to say actually, you know, it important as that meeting is, is not something I can do today. Absolutely. It’s yeah. And just honor your time and whoever’s in that meeting.

It’s not gonna be the best of me today. So

Jake: I absolutely love that. Not fear what people are gonna say, cause that that’s often, again the issue, isn’t it. We fear them how others are gonna view us. And actually I think what, what I particularly found is people genuinely go, do you know what isn’t that really.

You know, like just a no bubble. Yeah. Respectful. It’s really like, isn’t it decent of someone to just say, you know what? I am flawed. Right. That’s I I’m dealing with it, but this is gonna be very helpful, but I can’t wait to see you again tomorrow or when, you know? Yeah. And quite often I automatically, it is by the time I’ve got outta bed, got a shower, 12 o’clock one o’clock really ready to go.

Do you wanna meet now? Yeah. Great. And [00:40:00] again, you sort of then are able to achieve what you wanted to achieve. So it might have been a bit of a hassle for them in the morning, but ultimately yeah, you still get the great outcome. They’ve understood you a little bit more, you know, that they’re decent cause they’ve responded well.

And again, it’s just a thing of a set of, let’s not go, oh, we’ve gotta put on this suit and put on this big brave face, just be you and be decent. And under does the saying, and it’s never being kind, but that is ultimately then the point is if we just be kind to people and acknowledge that, yeah. We all have things that go on in our lives.

We’ll have a reason for doing what we do or how we behave. Just try and understand that a little bit better than we all get on. Hopefully much better. Yeah. I

Nicola: think it’s definitely something about, and. For CEOs at that very senior, just, just remind yourself that people in your team are they’re human. And they, they bring, you know, to work with ’em things that have gone on at home or things that have gone on in their past.

And they bring all of that with them and just, just pop yourself into their shoes and just think what, what is going on for them rather than they’re brilliant delivering or they’re, you know, [00:41:00] the strategy they’re creating is really, that’s all great. But actually behind that, we also need to support that person so that they are able to get through something difficult or they are.

And actually I had some really what’s the word. I had some very distinct experiences when I was struggling with anxiety and depression. I had a couple of line managers that dealt with it incredibly well. Mm-hmm and I had a couple of line managers that just didn’t have a clue what to do. And like something like mental health first aid would’ve really helped them, but it, it was almost like, I dunno what to do with her.

So I’m just gonna ignore it. Yes. And just hope that she’s okay. But actually this person over here I know, can really support cause she’s having a baby and I really get it, but I don’t get that problem. I don’t get that. I dunno what to do with her. It’s like, just treat me like a human, like if it was a friend or if it was, you know, someone you loved going through it, you just say, I dunno what to say, but you’re okay.

Can I do anything? So, um, and with your, with your mental health journey, how do you think it’s helped you to grow into your CEO role? How do you think it’s actually. I think we’ve touched on some of it. We’ve actually, it’s not [00:42:00] the best time for a meeting today and just being open honest. But what else do you think it’s kind of helped you to bring to your

Jake: role?

I think it just, it makes me look at everything through that lens, really. So I look at decisions that we’re gonna make, how will, how I’ll cut that land. Cause again, you never, you can never represent everyone as you know. So my mental health doesn’t represent everybody’s journey with mental health, but it does give you a lens that I think you can have a bit of more understanding of.

So I think it only helps. So I say if we’re a charity. Designed to help people. It makes me look at our processes. It makes me look at okay, well, if, if, if I, if I was in need of help now, how would I wanna access it? How easy would I want it to be? Would I wanna figure out what they can do or whether I want them to be quite explicit about what support and what, how far they can take.

So it just makes me constantly look at it through that, but then we’ve just taken on a project now where we’re working with our local NHS hospital and we’re gonna employ two full time case workers to work with people with the same personality sort that I have. And it’s the first project we’ve had [00:43:00] that has absolutely no targets.

Right. So they’ve gone. Years worth of funding. Two full-time people do whatever you can. If that means you’ve helped five people, but those five people get brilliant outcomes. Yeah. And we really transform their lives with them. Then super, if you help 50 people and they all get extra benefits and whatever, then fab, but let’s just see, because we know that it’s difficult for people.

We know that people with complex mental health conditions really, really often need someone who can help them articulate their voice in a certain way. Cause someone about this, if you then complain about a service. You automatically feel like you’re seen as a problem aren’t you sort of, or whatever, but if a professional does it and worded in certain ways it becomes, oh, we’ve got a problem.

Certain devices complains about, you know, so we’re just sort of trying to say, how do we help people articulate their voice in a different way and, and support them. But again, it’s the fund who’s prepared to go. Do you know what Jake really get this, really buy into it? Let’s just give it a go. You know, a local NHS hospital is working with mental health, saying, let’s work on this together.

Let’s see what we can do. And let’s see what, [00:44:00] what outcomes we can actually achieve for individuals without perceiving that we already know. Cause normally a project says, you are gonna do this and that’s what we gonna measure you on. And this one’s saying, you know what? Let’s figure it out because love that people have different levels of needs.

And we’d rather go into this and say, let’s figure it out. So let’s have the best of intentions. Of course. Yeah. Let’s figure it out as we go along, we’re not setting ourselves up to fail and then we’ll actually respond to the needs of, of the individuals we help. Yeah. I love that. So when you say about my, my, how it’s helped my role, that’s the point?

It’s it just makes me look at it through that lens and say. How do I make sure that people get the most appropriate and best supported they can possibly reasonably get from a tragedy that has huge demand and make sure that our team aren’t then sacrificed through stress and, and wellbeing for that. And at the moment or toward it feels like we balance that really, really well.

Amazing.

Nicola: I love it. I love it. Um, and you keep coming back to this point and I did wanna talk about it just for a little bit, but I, I, I completely agree with you cuz I think we’re so obsessed with physical health. Aren’t we? [00:45:00] And like, you know, on my weight or my body or I’m gonna get my BMI checked or my heart rate or I’ve got cholesterol, there’s all these different markers.

And I, as I, as I’m getting older, I suppose I’m, I’m more aware those markers are kind of shifting and we that’s just natural in society and it’s, it is, it kind of blows my mind still that how we, our lived experience through our minds and our brains and our mental health. Is the one that’s it’s stigmatized and it’s, it’s got this, like you said, it’s almost like, I, I think I had a fear of speaking up because it’s like, oh my God, I’m, you know, am I gonna be UN not considered for promotions?

Am I gonna just be stuck in this role? Am I gonna be a, you know, took a lot to kind of share it. And like I said, there was those very mixed kind of responses. Just with mental health. I just, I just, it still kind of just blows my mind that it’s not just another conversation and actually my, my partner and my fiance and I have both struggled at different times, but we’ve both been really honest and open with our [00:46:00] families and our friends and our people around us over time.

And actually for that, I think we’ve just grown into strong couple, but also just for those people around us that might be struggling. It’s like people know that they can check in with us or know that actually there’s always an open conversation. There’s always an ear waiting to listen. Yeah. Even if there’s dog’s kicking off in the background or, you know, it’s a busy time, it’s still always there, but why is that still there?

Like it, it just blows my mind and, and part of what I teach and coach. In my programs is you really, as a leader, need to feel all your feelings like you can’t go to work and put them in a box, cause they’re gonna pop up when you don’t expect them or you don’t want them. So that continual dripping of the tap, letting your emotions kind of be there and experience them.

That’s how you can, you know, really tune in and lead with them rather than like, oh my God, that’s an emotion. I don’t

Jake: want, I think the answer to stigma. Right? So, and it’s the same then with race and females, as you said, and, and physical disabilities is we’ve made huge steps forward in the last generation, particularly last couple of generations on, [00:47:00] on some of them, but it it’s about stigma.

So. And in particular, I picked this up on my course because some people are sent on the HFA courses too. Some people want to come on them. Yeah.

Nicola: Volunteer. Well, there go it’s. Yeah, the energy’s really good. Always

Jake: spot it. So you don’t even have to ask people cause you just know someone’s been sent tends to be the ones who say this is too much, the manuals too big, you know, you, you just sort of then know who the people are that maybe aren’t as keen on being here as, as others.

But what I found then you see is those are the people who actually said, you know what, when I joined the start of this course, this was my perceptions of people. Yeah. I thought it was attention seeking. I thought people were doing it to excuse themselves from having to do as much work as other people.

Okay. Yeah. I thought they were lazy, always St very stigmatized and things really come out and actually people get to the end and go. I didn’t realize it was that difficult. I didn’t realize. Yeah. Cause it’s hidden. Isn’t it? So these, these symptoms are, are hidden. So again, the suicidal crisis, cause often with clients as well.

So someone will come along and say. I thought clients who mentioned suicide would attention [00:48:00] seeking. I thought they were saying it to make me step like step a little bit more and take it seriously. And I, I just didn’t really appreciate or respect everything else that comes with I’m suicidal. It’s not just something you say, it’s all our feelings to come with that.

Yeah. That you’re worthless. That there’s nothing else to live for that you’ve got no hope for your future, that your family and friends will better off without you being here are serious, huge things that someone is dealing with, but we just hadn’t appreciated that. Cuz again, our level of stigma or perceptions on why people might be saying that or, or behaving in that worry are, are really tainted.

Really. And that’s the, that’s the sad thing. I was gonna say education. But if you look at principal, you in prince Harry, when they did the heads together campaign. Yeah, maybe nearly 10 years ago. Now that for me was the shift because then suddenly celebrities started talking about their mental health a lot more and whatever, but what, what I would say Nicola is the problem is that.

We end up with TV programs now Ave, sorry. Should I say TV adverts say, oh, NHS minds together. And whatever else, every mind matters, [00:49:00] the support’s not available. So a lot of people are still having to keep it a bit more hidden because they can’t easily access the support that they need to, to, to be able to step onto that journey of recovery.

When I was first, not first suicidal, when I first went to a GP about suicides from suicidal thousand 11, uh, I was 26, went to GP because I nearly drove into the back of the Laurie. Um, first time I’d ever thought about actually doing something and it took three years for them to call me back for the triage about that suicide situation.

I then, um, looked for a private because I couldn’t afford it. A private medical appointment took three days and I was diagnosed with ADHD, emotionally unstable personal disorder after waiting three years for the triage. No, it’s three days, three days, two days, three days had a diagnosis of two experience.

And, and a lot of people just aren’t in that position. So they’re battling alone, struggling to engage with professionals being passed around, being on waiting lists. It’s just not a great picture, but [00:50:00] ultimately, as I said, there are other peer support people who help validate and understand that it’s difficult in itself can be a huge help.

It’s and I call about stars in your eyes. And my course is, it’s not stars in your eyes. You don’t go into puff. Smoke will come out without a mental health problem. And that’s what we have to appreciate. Right. We have to say. You talking to me, doesn’t make me then go. Whew, where we go? Great. Aren’t you wonderful.

Now it makes you be able to go, do you know what it is? Crap. You don’t have to do this on your own. I’m here whenever you need me. We’ll do whatever we can. You talked about antidepressant and medication and whatever people need to appreciate the impact of that couple of milligrams. Increas means you might not wake up at on time.

It might mean you never slept all night. If we just had a bit of appreciation for that, we might say to someone, you know what? I know you’re on medication at the moment. When Nicola, do you wanna work a bit more flexibly over the next couple of weeks while you adjusting your medication? And then we can talk about it again.

But if you wanna come in at 10 months to six, do what you want, because if you’re bothered about outcomes more than I wanted to with it nine, and you’re went in at nine, then again, you get to go. It’s not quite decent [00:51:00] actually, because I don’t need to come in at 10 cause I’m okay. But I know that I’d be supported if I did need, if I did have an issue in education, if I did need to go to a C B T appointment, and that’s again, the culture that I just love organizations to adopt, like

Nicola: was going through that.

Just my heart. Would’ve just been so full and so absolutely appreciative of

Jake: how easy Cola for us to do. That’s what it keeps. How easy is it for us to just be able to say, do you know what we can just do that we can? Yeah, because it will only take a couple of weeks for you to understand what medication works to have a freedom to go to your GP appointment without being seen as a Scarr or, or whatever.

Uh, and just about being decent. And as I said, sometimes saying this little bit of work that you’re doing will, may just have to wait. And if it is really important, maybe I have to take it on for a little bit as well and work together with you and, and whatever, but, but easy Dawn. And, and as you say, the impact can be huge on the individual that you are supporting.

Nicola: Yeah, I do think, I mean, I have, I have talked about like my mental health journey and I’m really I’m I, that chapter in my life I’m actually really appreciative [00:52:00] now. Cause I think as, as dark as that time was, and it was really quite dark at times. I think I, as a new, a new level of appreciation for everything now, or even last year, my partner went through just a severe period of anxiety and him going through medication and actually taking probably, you know, a good six, seven weeks to settle down on it and then get the, you know, the benefit of it.

And. Whether you, you know, this isn’t a conversation about whether you agree with it. Not for him. It was just giving him pulse for breath to kind of catch his breath and think. Right. Okay. I’m, I’m kind of backing my own skin a little bit more. I’m not, I don’t have the constant sickness and can’t sleep. I, I, I feel like I can function a bit more again.

And then out of that, it’s then starting to, you know, We both had counselors on and off for years. And we just, almost, those are our spaces, especially me as a coach giving a lot, like you will do give a lot to other people and create that really safe space. So it’s my it’s, you know, it’s part of how I honor that is I need to do that for myself to be able to.

Create that for other people. [00:53:00] Absolutely. And kind of come in with kind of like a neutral energy of, right. This is your time. Where, where are we focusing today? Yeah.

Jake: So, yeah, absolutely. But I also just really respect that, you know, level of self awareness from people as well, who sort said, you know what, I do need some therapy right now.

I do need this. Right. I need to take a break right now. I just think there’s something really, really, really positive about that. Where someone just said, I do just need this for me. It doesn’t mean everything else is constantly forever sacrifice, but just for now, I need to have this bit of focus on me. I think, you know, looking at that, I other people surely just gotta make us respect people a bit more to say they’ve got the, the courage to be able to say that.

Yeah. And that’s really, really positive. And hopefully I said, that’ll impact more people as, as more of us get confident with doing that as well. Yeah,

Nicola: definitely. Definitely. If I think of leaders, I think, you know, like you said, there’s those leaders that are greater like strategy or, you know, creative or innovation, but actually something all of them can bring to that leadership role.

It’s just, it’s that human element of. This is part of, you know, part of me and part of who I am. And yeah, I think we had little insights through lockdown. Didn’t we? Yes. And seeing [00:54:00] everyone on zoom and, you know, dogs and children and, you know, insight into other people’s lives. And I think sometimes when I think of the women that I work with, I think sometimes some of the struggle for them is almost, they’re very emotional.

They’re very connected and we’ve gone through this whole process to help them feel all the feelings, but then that’s met with stretchy and logic and it’s almost head versus heart and we, we need people to be the best they are. Yeah. Like you said, to, you know, come to work and have that brilliant impact, like is head and heart together.

Absolutely. Yeah. And if they’re battling against each other and actually, yeah, I know for me in corporate is head and logic and reasoning and I’ll demonstrate my point and I’ll evidence it. And I had to. Quieten down that feeling part. Whereas now I, I get to bring both of it together and that’s why it’s, you know, this is what I do and this is why I’m good

Jake: at it.

Yeah. And then I’ll thrive. And then that’s where I sail up. Well, people have to, as individuals, we have to take a step back ourselves and say, are we getting in the way of that? Or, or, or are we supporting that? Because, um, as I said, I think people, people just do motor [00:55:00] on. Um, and as leaders, cuz I, I said, I know you’re trying to obviously encourage people here to be able to be themselves.

Yeah. But some people might be holding other people back and that’s so the constant message I’m trying to give is. It doesn’t mean that they’re a horrible person either. It means they might just needs to. So again, with our amateur training, a lot of them said, you know what? I’ve never thought about empathy.

I’ve always been sympathetic. I’ve never thought about empathy. I’ve always thought I’ve gotta know everything to say, because I don’t know everything to say. I’m just not gonna say anything. And then it makes them look cold and distant and yeah, whatever. But again, if we say, as you said, I don’t know what I need to say.

It’s really difficult, but let’s figure it out together. Let’s both go on this journey together, you know, in relation to your work and what we can support you with outside of work, then that’s, that’s great. It’s not about having to have all the answers. So I said, people shouldn’t be afraid to just take that self-reflection as well and say, actually, do I need to go and up skill myself a little bit more?

Do I need to connect with people a bit more? Yeah. Um, let’s do survey. Let’s figure things out. Let’s not cause you, and, and again, so I said with having mental health challenges would not have mental health [00:56:00] challenges. Be prepared to say, I know it all, but let’s, let’s at least not ignore it. Cause that’s how it becomes the problem.

Doesn’t it? Yeah. By ignoring it is what absolutely causes more damage.

Nicola: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Oh, it’s been so good. I’ve loved it. So is there a final message you’d like to leave our audience today with cuz we’ve gone a brilliant journey today. So is there a final message?

Jake: The, the, the, yeah, me ADHD. There’s about a million messages going through me, head by but it’s just about, I suppose, being confident cuz I think that’s the, I actually just, it’s really interesting cause gonna, I had a, a message on LinkedIn last two weeks ago from someone who wants to become a sentence I CEO.

Um, and she said, I’m young, I’m going for this role. I’m a woman. And know you are very open about all the stuff that you are doing. Jake, can I just speak to you about what it’s like to be a CEO? Is it something I actually wanna do here? Whatever. Um, anyway, we met and she, she said to me, do you know what I, I got the job and I’m really, really happy and it’s amazing, you know, superb and whatever, and obviously course congratulated and stuff, but it was [00:57:00] just about my message to her.

Again, was you are sort of looking to me for constant reassurance about whether you’re saying the right thing, but it’s about you being confident in your ability to be CEO, not in, in, I’ve actually got all the stuff that Jake’s told me the top tick. Cause of course there’s always key words. The buzzword that you should probably say, that’ll make people smile and done the research, you know, but actually it was.

You know, trying to help her to say, but you’ve done all this fantastic stuff yourself. Right. So it’s great. Definitely great to reach out and get that help from someone. But it’s about you going in there being confident that you have the transferable skills to do this role and, and whatever. So I know it’s, it’s a bit of a cliche, but as if I can say to people to be a bit more confident in their ability is to go for opportunities.

Cause yes, other people can hold you back by their decisions, but you hold yourself back more. If you don’t go for them. Right. So if you can at least try and go for those opportunities, I went, I’ll give you this quick story. I went for the trainer manager job in certain device. The week [00:58:00] before I went for the CEO job.

And I was told I didn’t have enough experience to be the trainer manager, uh, in a certain device. One week, the week after I had loads of experience to be the chief exec on much more money wow. Than I was gonna get as a trainer manager. And I’d been a trainer manager twice, so didn’t have an over of it, but I’d done it twice.

CEO role I’d never done before was well capable of being able to do it. And here’s much more money to do it as well. You can’t hold yourself back by one recruitment. That’s such a good story. Right. So, wow. Um, so it

Nicola: causes ING you as

Jake: well. Right? And it impacted me by, I’m not, again, I’m not a colds horse, it impacted me.

But my point is just to then a much better opportunity with much better pay and whatever it came along,

Nicola: that more impact right. At that level training management level.

Jake: And, and I said, it was just, it was just being content enough to say, but I know I can, I know I can add more. Right. So they obviously haven’t seen that or whatever, or maybe there was a better candidate, by the way.

I’m always accepting of that. But in this circumstance, I was then the one who was [00:59:00] offered this. It’s my opportunity to show them what I can do. Um, so yeah. Elements of confidence really? And confidence obviously doesn’t have to be arrogant. Does it, but it’s just the opportunity to say, so I know I can make a difference here.

Yeah. Give me some space and time to do that, which is what I’ve asked for here. Yeah. And then let me show you what I can do. Oh,

Nicola: I love that. I love that. Uh, right. Could finish with a quick fire around. So is there a book that you’ve absolutely loved reading? That’s changed your world?

Jake: I, I think so. I think it’s Chi by professor, Steve, you to mention that one.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and it is because I read loads of books. So I, again, with ADHD, I read half of a book or course of a book. Cause I can’t sit down and probably take three, what you need though.

Nicola: Right. So I’m not very good at finishing them, but I take what I need. I feel that

Jake: all, I dunno if you’ve ever, yeah, I dunno if I’ve ever finished books in school, but, but definitely the reason I like it is because.

Isn’t it so interesting. I dunno if you’ve have you read it.

Nicola: Yeah. I’m a neuroscience geek. So you just

Jake: expect to go, [01:00:00] you know what, isn’t it? Yes. I know the model’s obviously a bit, you know, childish and that there’s a monkey in your brain. That’s, that’s a bit mischievous, but it makes you go, do you know what, when you go into overdrive, which I do all the time.

Yeah. That, that it is just a defensive mechanism that’s built in to protect you from whatever. Yeah. It thinks is gonna happen. And you need to use a bit of logic by taking a step back to go and go. What, what is the bigger picture here? Yeah. Not let the cognitive distortion get in the way and I’d never ever seen it.

And that, and sometimes you need to describe in a certain way, you know, and that was the first time I read it. And when, wow, what is simple way of helping us understand how our brain goes into water drive, you receive an email and you jump to the conclusion that you’re in trouble. Yeah. That your boss doesn’t like what you’ve done.

But actually that’s your Chimp being mischievous, but also trying to defend you and protect you from, and actually it causes you more harm then. So if you can take a step back and go, what’s the logic in this what’s, what’s actually what I’m actually am seeing what I haven’t done, what’s going on. And that was the best book that’s that impacted me.

Yeah. Um, cause a lot of those stuff that I read, which is, you [01:01:00] know, I wanna do in a way dose. So I buy a book on how to do lads and that’s all awfully stuff, but the Chi docks was the stuff that really made me go. Wow. What a way to think about our brains. So

Nicola: I love it. Yeah. I’m a neuroscience geek, so I love, I love it all.

Definitely. Definitely. Um, and is there a leader that’s inspired

Jake: you again? It’s, it’s probably sounds like the cliche, but probably was Barack Obama. Then when he, when he was certainly when he was going for, for president, because so many political campaigns are so negative on it’s so much on there’s so much tab and the other down aren’t they?

Yeah, exactly. It’s so much their crap and rubbish and they’re this and this.

Nicola: No, I’m slightly less crap

Jake: and rubbish. Yeah, absolutely. And that is definitely the thing it’s like, it’s not why I’m great. There’s just why I was things a little bit differently where Brack Obama did then just go. And, and in fact, I genuinely think most of us probably didn’t even know what he stood for.

It was just more that he was like, I’m a positive person. I wanna do stuff I want people’s lives to be better. And I wanna lead it by hope. And that as that campaign did not allow each other to, to [01:02:00] criticize each other in, in such a personal way. Yeah. They spoke about policies and the debates, but each of them had personal questions loaded to them.

And both of them respectfully said, I actually quite like the other person, I’m not here to bring them down. And we don’t anywhere nearly enough of that, even on a counselor level. Right. Even on a very low political, uh, level, uh, is so personal attack them. And, and again, it just, it just makes it so negative.

Yeah. How does it inspire you to go? Oh yeah. I really want my community to be better by yeah. By voting for the person who thinks the other one is so crap and rubbish, you know? Cause that’s the

Nicola: vice of itself. Isn’t yeah. My other half is quite, he he’s. This huge brain that very di you know, diverse interest.

And part of that is politics. It’s like, for me, I just, it’s one thing we don’t really engage on. Cause I’m like, I just, don’t all I feel is negative energy from it. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s not a, it’s a conscious choice. It’s not a lack of intelligence. It’s just like, I just don’t wanna engage in it. I’m sorry. I, I don’t, I just find it very negative, so, yes.

Yeah. [01:03:00] Yeah. Um, and finally, what does find your fire mean to you?

Jake: I for me, it, it is about following your passion then, which is what I’ve constantly been able to thankfully be able to do. But what is the thing that makes you want to wake up and change the world or change your impact your, your bit of the world.

Um, and that’s what that would mean for me.

Nicola: Love it love it. Where can our audience find out more about you and the great work that you do with your system vice and the mental health

Jake: first data. So probably particularly LinkedIn, cause that is a bit of a catchall for everything. So take Morrison on, on LinkedIn, but particularly for anyone who, who is thinking you, what I wanna understand more about his mental health journey.

I did just put some stuff on YouTube, particularly when I was first diagnosed and in lockdown when I was really, really suicidal and I was still trying to be a decent CEO and whatever, and I just do quite raw. This is what it feels like right now. And I often get emails from people. And I know we all say so well, we’ve got all this contact and whatever, but I do, I get someone reached out to me and was like, this really, really helped because you know, [01:04:00] sometimes it’s their family member, that’s going through it and they’ve done a bit of research sometimes it’s them that have recognized some of those symptoms and being able to listen to someone and go, oh, I get that.

I get that so much helps you tremendously. Doesn’t it? Because yeah, you go into your GP, you go into this, you go into that and people don’t necessarily understand, or you dunno how to articulate it. And then you hear someone say things in a way that connects with you so much. So again, if anyone is thinking, actually I wanna understand a bit more about that.

Then YouTube has got a couple of videos there

Nicola: as well. Brilliant. Thank so much. Oh, thank you for your time today. I’ve absolutely loved it. It lovely you so much. And uh, yeah, just keep showing up cuz it just makes such a difference. So thank you. It was great to chat. Thank you so much. Thank you. So for today’s podcast, if you’ve got any feedback or comments do drop me, um, an email, all my details in the show notes and I will see you on the next.

Episode. Thanks so much. Bye.

If you love what I have to say, and you like to find out more about working with me, easiest way to do that is to book a, get to [01:05:00] know you call. So there’s a link to that in the show notes, I can help you through working with your organization to help close the gender pay gap through women’s leadership programs, to help empower your women at the top, to be more influential, impactful leaders, and really own their leadership identity.

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