Nicola: [00:00:00] hello. Welcome to the female leaders on fire podcast. I am your host, I’m Nicola Buckley, and I am the coach for women at the top, in the corporate world who are looking to find their fire, that passion, that purpose and that excitement, they can have more impact. And more influence and as a result, more income.

So I’m excited today because I’ve got a great guest on today and we’re going to be talking about how, as a woman at the top that you know, what you want and ask for it, rather than getting stuck, maybe feeling like you don’t deserve it, or we’re going to go and go into and explore all of that. So today, Um, brilliant Michelle Jima and she’s a director of a quality pay.

So she’s agenda and ethnicity equality consultant, and she’s dedicated like myself, but in our own way to closing the workplace pay gaps. So welcome stay. How are you today? Thank you.

Michelle: [00:01:00] I’m I’m good. Thanks Nicola. Thank you for inviting me on to the.

Nicola: You’re very welcome. You’re very welcome. So can you just start off just by telling us a little bit about the brilliant work that you’re doing in organizations?

Yeah.

Michelle: So I essentially worked with organizations to help them understand why they have gender and ethnicity, pay gaps, and then create action plans to, to close them essentially. And I also. Provide support and negotiation support for women who, who needs that extra help in knowing how to advocate for themselves in the west.

Yeah.

Nicola: So you’re an expert at helping women know and asks what they actually want.

Michelle: Well, I don’t really like the word expert, but I’ll, I’ll, I’ll take it, take

Nicola: it, take it. Say we’re going to be talking about knowing and asking for what you want. So this is something that. I, I know that I can struggle with at times.

And I also see many of my clients, even though they’re brilliant women, even though they’ve reached the top of the corporate [00:02:00] ladder, they just struggle. I think there’s almost two parts to it when I was kind of thinking about and prepping for today, I think there’s a kind of knowing what you want and what you need.

And then there’s a second part actually asking for it. Do you kind of resonate with those two different areas of this and why women might struggle?

Michelle: Yeah, definitely. You know, you’re right in the sense that there are parts to it, to it that, you know, identifying what it is that you want and then the actual asking.

But I think there’s also another part of, you know, dealing with the aftermath. Like if you, whether you get it or not on what the response has been. And I think part of the reason why women in particular struggle with this is because we’ve very rarely asked what we actually want. And I think we very rarely intended.

Ask ourselves what we actually want as well for myriad of reasons. But I think there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of social conditioning in the sense that we are. Conditioned to focus on what other people [00:03:00] need first before ourselves. And that even when we do advocate or think about what it is we want for ourselves, we can experience that pushback from others.

That kind of feel that you’re not staying within the bounds of the status quo of how you should behave and what is, and isn’t okay for you to ask for. And there’s a lot of mental gymnastics for us to do that goes into just deciding whether to ask for something or not. There’s so much kind of mental preparation that comes before that.

And so I think for a lot of people, it just becomes easier. Just not to think about it and not to ask rather than, you know, doing the hard work of asking and then doing the hard work of managing what comes next. Basically.

Nicola: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So if, if there’s a woman, listen, they’re listening today and they’re struggling to understand what they want, where can they work?

Can they get started?

Michelle: I think it’s [00:04:00] about understanding that your intuition is there for a reason. And, and this is my son bit cheesy, but it is to take the time and maybe try and find that quiet time in space, but to be brutally honest about, you know, what, what is it that you want? You know, what is it that you’re trying to achieve and to, and to not censor that when that comes through with, oh, I want this, but really focusing on, you know, this, this is the thing that right here, right now in this situation, This is what I want and need.

And to just sit with that, because otherwise you get into that space of telling yourself all the reasons why it’s going to be too difficult, where you can’t have it, but it really is about just focusing on yourself first and being okay with, do you know what it’s okay for me to. Wants to be paid more.

It’s okay. For me to ask for that [00:05:00] flexible working schedule, it’s okay. For me to set that boundary with said friend or family member that there’s nothing, there’s nothing inherently wrong with that. It’s just is what it is. And it’s what you need in the moment.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I was just smiling and kind of giggling a little bit at that point.

So I am, I describe it to clients. It’s kind of the, yeah, but no, but exactly, like you said, you kind of go, you think of this, you know, even a simple thing that you want to need. Like, I need to cancel a meeting today because actually I’m so busy with other things or I need to be at home on time because I really want to spend the evening with my partner and my children.

And you straight away go into. Yeah, but no, but yeah, but if I do that, it might be, and also how people are going to see that or perceive that, or that, like you said, is stepping outside of the social conditioning. And I see it again in so many clients that are women that have done so much and [00:06:00] created this incredible life yet.

There’s still a real and some of them physically struggle to say. What they want. It gets stuck almost in their fro is quite a physical symptom almost for that, some of them. And where do you think that you mentioned about kind of like the social conditioning and kind of expectations versus women? Where do you think that comes from?

Michelle: Uh, I think, I think it comes from this idea of what it is that men are supposed to do. Men and boys are supposed to do and what girls and women are supposed to do. And it’s this, it’s this, it’s the social con construct. Isn’t it of all of the society that you live in, that these are the parameters over here for men and boys here are the parameters for, for girls and women.

And I, and I do see it as, you know, as kids are growing up and I have two kids myself. You, you see the way in which people interact with boys and girls and the things that they say to them. So with girls, it’s the classic [00:07:00] talking about how they look pretty, you know, what they’re wearing or the hairs pairs, lovely, et cetera.

And boys is more of a questioning of, you know, what do you enjoy? What, what are you, what are you into? What have you done? And that’s just with kids. And some obviously that follow that follows through, into your teenage years, adult years, you know, the workplace, et cetera, and all of the other kind of relationships that you might have or be whether you’re sister, mother, aunt, you know, husband, you know, et cetera.

And the messaging in all of that. Here are the parameters for you. And I think particularly for women, if we step outside of those parameters, there’s the risk of what is the kind of backlash? What is the response that might come? And then we have to do the mental gymnastics of, oh, is it safe? Is it safe to me, for me to be difficult in air quotes, to ask for the thing that’s [00:08:00] not been put on the table.

To, you know, make the point that nobody else has seen to contradict someone else’s, you know, beliefs, et cetera. And so, yeah, so there’s a lot of that social conditioning that we carry with us, I think unconsciously for, for a lot of us, but even when it’s conscious, then there’s a fear of stepping outside it.

So then it makes it it’s easier not to be honest or to self-advocate.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. I talk, I talk a lot to my clients about, um, we took that beliefs and we talk about belief upgrading. So essentially I use an analogy and go with me on this as a, as a great woman. I don’t wear the Mickey mouse jump that I wore as a seven year old, but the seven year old neck that work, that suited where she was and she loved it.

And those are the, kind of like the beliefs, you form beliefs at that very early age, from what you see and what you experienced, what you feel, what you hear, like you said, the social [00:09:00] constructs and parameters are kind of built up for you that then stepping outside of it starts to feel quite alien, but it’s it’s if you carry those beliefs, you spend up to 95% of your time in your subconscious.

And you’re working from that outdated belief framework. There’s going to be times when you’re pulled back in and your brains, your site. Well, that’s not what we do. That’s not what we say. That’s not acceptable. And it’s time to take off that Mickey mouse jumper that served you well. And it’s time to get on something that fits with where you are now.

And that’s the beliefs that kind of go with.

Michelle: Yeah, I love, I love the idea of that belief upgrades, because as you were talking, I was thinking about a time where, you know, I found it really difficult to stuff advocate, but if I went back to that time now, knowing what I now know, I would do do things differently.

So when I came back from my first lot of maternity leave, I was looking, I was looking for work and I couldn’t find anything. Within the parameters of what I was looking for. So I was looking for something flexible, [00:10:00] something meaningful, and that paid well. And so I basically just looked to the job market and I saw that everything was either in London or was full time and neither of those things suited, but rather than me, self-advocating.

You know, saying to these companies, you know, I need flexible working. What are you willing to kind of negotiate on? I just assumed, oh, okay. There’s nothing for me in that format. So that means I have to change my expectations, which essentially meant I had to lower my expectations because if I wanted that flexibility, the trade off was that it was going to be for a job as opposed to a career.

And it wouldn’t be paid very well. And so I accepted that. My social conditioning was, or because you want flexibility because you’re a mother, this is what is on offer. And it’s less than what you, what you think you deserve, but you just have to take it. So the thing about upgrading your belief, I think [00:11:00] is a.

It’s really interesting. There’s a really interesting concept.

Nicola: Yeah. I just prefer over limiting beliefs. And I think that sounds quite negative and almost sounds like, you know, your sounds a bit more blameful or critical or negative for me, it just never really sat with me. Cause I, I understand the concept of limiting beliefs, but they did service at a point that they just don’t serve us now.

So they’re just out of the. They just don’t fit with you now. So, but I love, I love that example you gave because it almost, it takes women to be brave and bold and probably go down a path that hasn’t been trodden by a woman in a particular company or industry or area before. And it takes stepping outside of all that, all those beliefs or the social construct to actually challenge.

And, you know, your example there, how brilliant would it be to then go back to them and say, I can’t do this job. I can do it in three days a week and I can do it brilliantly well, but that’s, that’s my, that’s what I can offer you. And to challenge that and actually say, does, does it need someone [00:12:00] full time or can it be done in like, in this way, I can still have that same level of impact.

And I love women in the world that are going out and just challenging, you know, like squiggly careers and the, um, job shadow path and the kind of challenging, like it’s, you know, women to get to the very top, the job share power and that they’re at the top of an organization. And yet they’ve been job-sharing for 10 years and they’ve just made it work.

It’s absolutely fascinating when you hear those stories, but it takes, it takes that extra. Like you said, the braveness of boldness to kind of step past all of those outdated beliefs and the social constructs of what we should be doing is go actually to what I’m going to challenge us. This needs to change.

I’m going to be, I’m going to put my energy, not only into, I know what I’ve won. I’d done the work that I was just. And I’m going to, I’m going to drive this change because I believe there’s something not right here.

Michelle: Yeah. And it, and it’s about doing that, like a proper risk assessment, because I think for a lot of us, the risk assessment that we do in, you know, wanting to ask for [00:13:00] something different know.

How are other people going to perceive this and what the ramifications for me going to be. And, you know, whilst I think that is sensible and right for us to do, I think we have a tendency to err, on the side of caution and to catastrophize what the outcome of that risk might be. Whereas in reality, you think we need to do a bit more fact checking around what the risks could be, but also to accept that yeah, there is risk in asking for what you want because.

You’re generally ask him for something that isn’t on the table. And so, you know, it’s, it’s just part and parcel of self-advocacy that somebody isn’t going to like it, or there’s going to be pushback and people will say no, or we’ll make your life difficult. But the question you need to ask yourself is, you know, does the risk outweigh the benefits of you being honest about what it is that you need or what it is that you’re asking for?

You know, in that moment, [00:14:00]

Nicola: I love that. I love that. Cause if you, if you reduce your expectations and you just accept what’s on the table, rather than asking, I love, I love that wording that you use. Like asphalt’s, what’s not on the table. You’re not imagine the sort of employee you’re going to be. You’re going to join slightly frustrated, slightly annoyed over time.

I can only imagine that resentment kind of increases. So if I, if I give an example, I had a. One of my last jobs in corporate, I joined a corporate in London. I was head of innovation. So I was really excited. I thought, oh, you know, this is, you know, a dream job for me. I’ve done a lot of delivery and program management and launches and go to market stuff.

This is, this is my geeky strategy side. So it was, how are you going to get a team? You’re going to get a budget and you’re going to get a direct impact. And the senior leadership teams I’m like absolutely brilliant. Yeah, I’m completely. Yeah. Yeah, where do I sign? So I start the job and within, I think even within the first morning, the crushing realization, I [00:15:00] had 20% of one person, not probably the most capable person in the world.

It wasn’t really interesting what I did. I had no budget. I had a tiny research budget and that was it. And it was through my director, that it would all go to the senior leadership team and that was it. And it was just, and I started that job not feeling great. I started that job feeling quite cheated, a bit irritated, a bit annoyed.

And you know, you’re going through that whole process of changing your daily routine, changing the structure, changing how you were understanding, you know, the, all, everything that goes from a new job over something that wasn’t. I thought it was a, what had been described to me. And yeah, it’s just that I don’t, I don’t think it sets you up to be as powerful as a female leaders.

You can be if you’re already kind of begrudgingly accepting what’s available. So if, if we’ve got some women in this thing and that they want to ask for, what’s not on the table. And I love the, again, I love your wording around the mental [00:16:00] gymnastics. What do you think is some of the mentor, just say a little bit more about some of the mental gymnastics that might be going up.

So if they there’s something that they really want, maybe they’re in a full-time role at the moment. They want to go to four days or they want to move into a different area or. The something big that they want to ask to pay rise. So it’s, it’s the same as their male colleagues. What sort of mental gymnastics you think they might be going through?

Michelle: Oh, I can’t possibly ask for that. Just that, yeah. That thing of haven’t been given permission, so that means I’m not allowed. So that’s the first one. I think the issue of deserving comes up a lot. Do I do, I really need to serve, to ask about pay rise. So don’t really deserve to ask her, you know, a different working schedule that suits.

So that suits me and also that justification, like, it’s almost like you have to almost martyr yourself to be able to say. [00:17:00] I can, and I should, I should ask for this because if I don’t, this is the catastrophe that will happen. And then the aspect about, you know, relationships, like how will existing relationships change.

And again, it’s that risk of, well, how will people perceive me if I, if I dare to ask for, you know, their changing, working pattern, or if I dare to say actually having no budget doesn’t work for me or. I need a personal assistant who can give me 50% of the time, not 20 or, you know, whatever. And the mental gymnastics comes with basically problems.

It’s like we, we look for more problems that will come from asking almost as a justification, not to ask. And I think some of that is around not wanting to inconvenience other people, but being willing to take on that inconvenience for ourselves in this. Because if it could sign me burnout, a martyr ourselves that’s [00:18:00] socially acceptable, but to ask other people to change the way that they work to, you know, manage, you know, me in a different way to advocate for me for that pay rise to inconvenience them is the worst thing.

And that’s the thing that we have been subconsciously told we are not allowed to do. Yeah. Yeah. And all of that mental gymnastics, this is, there’s a lot of emotion with it. Yeah. Yeah,

Nicola: definitely. I know. It’s just, I was just thinking back to him, I’m a massive fan of, um, Glennon, Doyle and Brittany Brown as well.

But I was just thinking of a podcast episode, uh, Glennon Doyle when she’s, uh, so her podcast is we can do hard things and they were talking the early episode was all about overwhelming the fact that as women. Obviously this varies across relationships and families, but generally as women, we can take on these, this invisible work of what are the children doing?

What are weaved dinner tonight? The, you know, the household chores. I’m not saying all women do [00:19:00] all of it. Not at all. That’s not what I mean, but she was just saying, it’s just that conscious ticker of who’s doing that. When are they doing that? Who’s going to get that done. And she actually mentioned as well, even the fact of a study in America.

And they looked at deaths by choking in restaurants. And there was actually more women that died from choking in restaurants because women would leave the table and go to the bathroom. Cause they didn’t want to interrupt anyone’s dinner. They didn’t want to cause a scene. They didn’t want to cause. And they act then in a way they kind of described, it was a kind of nice thing themselves to death.

Like how dare we interrupt someone’s dinner, but actually choking and dying here, but Hey, enjoy your prong cocktail, enjoy your steak. But I’m, you know, and it was just really interesting cause that that’s, to me is an absolute, extreme behavior of like you said, if I can’t inconvenience anyone else I’m going to, I’ll just, I’ll just take that on my side.

I’ll just all manage that free [00:20:00] myself. ’cause, it’s, it’s easier. It’s, it’s the right thing to do or it’s fits within the social constructs that I know how a woman should

Michelle: be. Yes. Yeah. And, and obviously that’s a really extreme example, but you know, they’ve, they’ve done the research and they’ve got the stats.

And the other thing with that is that, you know, even if you do inconvenience other than. You know, there’s the risk that they might decide that actually that inconvenience is really inconvenient to them. So an example I can give you is a friend of mine. She has a husband and two children, and, uh, and she wanted to go to a, uh, what you think is like a Zumba or yoga class or something.

But her husband was at work at this particular time and she had the kids. So she. For, oh, I’ll ask my mother-in-law if she could have the kids for a couple of hours while I go to this, this class, I’m sure. She’ll say yes. So she asked her mother-in-law and the mother-in-law was like, yeah, sure. I look after them.

You know, what, what are you doing in that time? [00:21:00] So my friend says, oh, I’m going to Zumba. And then she said, oh, for Zoomba class for you. Oh no, I’m not going to look after them while you go to a Zumba class. I know. And so when my friend was telling me this, we were just like both horrified. And so she was like, so if I said to you that I had to work late and I couldn’t half working, you would look after them.

But because this is something for me. You’re not doing it. And that, I mean, it’s, it’s a small thing, but it’s a big thing. I think one is an indication of their relationship, which yeah, no

Nicola: bad. We weren’t going to that.

Michelle: why is now not non-existent, but it’s also that, that thing of, you know, it’s, it’s a judgment of how. How she can use her time. She wasn’t allowed to do something for herself, but if it’s something for someone else that she can’t get out of, I, you know, something [00:22:00] serious, I do serious work, then yes, I will be available.

I will support you. But if it’s something just for, you know, now I don’t know how long it took my friend to get to that space of deciding actually I need something for myself and that’s something. Exercise outside of the house meeting, it could have taken us ages or it could have just been, I want it, I need it.

I’m going to work our way to get it, but to get that messaging back from a close family friend. Sorry. I have no family friend from family that know your time. Your time for yourself is not valuable. If your time is in service to others, I’ll support you that I think that’s, that speaks volumes around what is, and isn’t okay for us to ask for.

And that, you know, if we are doing something for other people that fits in our. Designated roles, fine step outside of it. No, we will not support you. So then there’s also, again, this, the mental gymnastics of deciding, is it worth the risk [00:23:00] of asking for set support or, you know, whatever that thing is. Yeah.

Nicola: Yeah. That’s such a powerful story. Isn’t it of, and it’s, it’s interesting if I think about my fiance and I he’s actually. He went through his own kind of mental health journey. Let’s just say, and he’s now incredibly good at switching off. And he has a job. So he’s in a, he’s in the health services. So he has a job where he goes to somewhere, his diaries fall.

He has a really busy day. And then at the end of the day, he gets to come home and that’s his day done and he’s incredibly good at switching off. So he would love like a bath with candles and, you know, a bath bomb and all that kind of thing. And it really relaxes him. He loves him. He really switched off playing computer games with friends online.

And he’s just very good at that segregation. And he’s very good at knowing when he needs a nap or on the weekend when he needs just to not do anything. And it’s taken me, [00:24:00] seeing him role model that to me for a couple of years to actually start to know that that’s okay. And I remember kind of growing up and it’s my, my parents were.

Incredible, but it was very much the message. Like you need to work for what you want, things, these things don’t fall in your lap. It’s not just going to happen for you. And that kind of, you know, that work hard. Do more, give more. Yeah. And just, I think that’s been so ingrained. It’s taken me quite a while to me to recognize my own, wants my own needs and say, actually I need to get up and go for a swim in the morning, or I need a nap this afternoon because actually it’s quite a big on thing this morning.

That’s okay. And I can give my permission myself permission to actually do that. And within my program, I find your fire program. The first part, it’s not a typical leadership program, because it’s very much about focusing on you. It’s not really about leadership models and ways of doing things, but the first one is all about leading yourself, because I think you’re a leader of one from the day that you’re born.

So the leadership leadership starts there with [00:25:00] what you want, what you need when you need it. Because that is a role modeling to others. Is that that’s you meeting your needs? How are you going to support other people with our wants and needs? If you’re not doing that for yourself, if you’re giving so much that you’re tired, that you’re snappy, that you’re, you’re not, you know, giving the best of you at work.

Michelle: Yeah, definitely. And I think also that when you, when you show up for yourself and. Being honest about what it is that you want, that can be inspiring to other people because everyone’s got wants and desires, but we very rarely talk about them for fear of ridicule judgment, et cetera. So, as an example, um, as you know, I moved out to, uh, to Spain with my family about 18 months ago, and I could see that people were really pleased for us to, you know, to go.

But because we, because we came out without much of a plan, we were like, let’s just do it for a year [00:26:00] and see how things are. I did tell the people that just a bit like. I think she’s a bit crazy, but during that terribly British thing of smiling, can you,

oh, well done. Yeah. When they find out, you know, we haven’t got anywhere to live and we haven’t sorted the kids at the school, et cetera, but in conversations with some of my friends and one friend in particular, You know, she’s been wanting to move from the city to the countryside for years. Like we would have numerous conversations about the pros and cons and doing it, and she just kind of, wasn’t making a decision.

And then about a year ago she sent a message to say, you know, we’ve put an offer in a house or a house. And I was like, this is amazing. She said, well, I looked at you, Michelle, and you know, you, you wanted to go to Spain, what to do for ages. And then you finally did it. And she said, I think you probably not coming back.

So I just kind of thought. Well, if Michelle can do it, then why can’t we? And I was like, oh, that’d be your [00:27:00] inspiration. But there is definitely something about, you know, obviously doing it for yourself and being honest. What your desires are and what your needs are that remembering that there is a ripple effect when other people see you being you and doing what it is that you want to do.

And, and, and sometimes that scares some people and they will say things like, oh, you’re so brave. I couldn’t, and that’s fine. Cause that’s their journey. But then sometimes. It gives other people that hope of like, oh, okay, well maybe it is possible to do X, Y, Z. It is possible to ask for this and see what happens.

And so I think it’s, it’s, it’s useful to remember that whilst it is an, you know, it should be about you primarily in admittedly, the ripple effects for other people to be authentic and to ask for the things that they want, you know, isn’t to be underestimated.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think what I love talking to clients about, I just, um, at the very start we talk [00:28:00] about feel-good foundations and we’d talk about.

You know, sometimes they come to me in their diaries to say manic, there’s no, there’s nothing there, no time lover energy or ex there’s, nothing left for them. And they squeeze some of their things in towards the end of the week when they’re exhausted. So the, the feel-good foundations are just that. What are the things that become your, you know, the key rocks in your week Tang a week off that are just non-negotiables that help you to be a better mum to help you to be a better partner, to help you be the best you can be in your role.

Is that, is that Zumba class. Is that a yoga class? Is that eating really well? Is what is that? Because if you, if you don’t state your wants and needs, it’s always, it’s a note to yourself before you’ve even asked for it. And I, I do have women that come to me, this always kind of astounds me. And I just, when we have like an initial conversation and it’s like, what do you love?

What are your passions or used to? I used to love, um, there. So I used to [00:29:00] love that. And it’s so many of them are lost their passions because they’ve lost that time for them. And that, that ability to understand them, ask for what they want and what they need.

Michelle: Yeah, definitely. And I mean, I experienced it in my own business.

Like you said, so Romeo business, but yet I was getting to a place of burnout and I was just like, but I set my calendar. So, you know, if I don’t want to be in this space of burnout, then I, I have to actively do stuff to make sure that doesn’t happen as if one of the things I do is I I’ve set the parameters that I worked a three-day week because I realized that.

You know, I’m in Spain, but I basically am working at home every day. And I was just, was like, well, I might as well have stayed in England. If that was the case. I’m not utilizing my time properly. I’m not, I’m not respecting my own time outside of work and outside of, you know, being a mom. So my parameters are three days a [00:30:00] week.

And at first I felt immense guilt. I was like, I should be at work all the time. I shouldn’t be doing this. I should be. But then I was like, okay, Let’s trial and see what happens. And I’m much more well rested. I have a lot more mental space because I’ve got time for other things that doesn’t encroach on work and then work, work isn’t encroaching on my free time.

I’ve got time to go out for coffees and to meet people or to practice my Spanish and to, you know, go for a swim or just go for a walk and see the city name in. But it took me, you know, almost experiencing burnout. And then I had to get over the kind of guilty voices in my head to realize that, no, this is, this is, this works for me.

It means that I can show up better at work. And I can show up for my family better because I’ve got that decompression time. And for some people it would be four days and some people, it will be. Going, you know, rock climbing every weekend, you know, it’s different for everybody, but we, but we all need that space where we get to just be [00:31:00] ourselves and be happy and be chilled.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And I have, I know we’ve chatted about it before, but I’ve got a similar intention. We have a four day week and I think it’s just do it and just fit things round it and make, rather than. Talking about it and thinking, when can it happen, just do it and then make it work. Yeah.

So, yeah, you’ve certainly inspired with that. Thank you. So do you have, um, do you have a final message for any listeners? I

Michelle: think my final, my final message is that it’s, it’s okay to want what you want and, and it’s, and it’s really about trusting, trusting your instincts that you know yourself better. So if you know that setting a boundary with a friend or a family member is a thing that’s going to help you the most, then, you know, acknowledge there’s going to be risk, but do do the thing that you need to for yourself.

You know, you’re the only person like you say, you’re the leader of one either. You’re the one that has to live with the outcomes [00:32:00] and the repercussions. So you might as well put yourself in a position of being honest. What it is that you need and want, and you can deal with other people’s reactions afterwards, but you know, you have to start with yourself first.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I just, I like to think of it as you you’re the leading well leading authority in yourself. So if you don’t, if you’re not recognizing your needs and wants and then ask him for them, how, how else is it going to happen? Just a final few questions just to close off, because I think we could probably talk about this all day long.

It’s been absolutely brilliant. Do you have a leader that has inspired you?

Michelle: Ooh. Let’s see. Good. Let’s see. Good, good, good, good, good question. I wouldn’t say, you know, a celebrity leader that I, that I can think of, but I think for me, there are some people in business life. I look at how they show up for themselves authentically and how they’ve gone after kind of [00:33:00] specific, specific dreams and aspirations.

And. Working to kind of make, make it happen. Um, so yeah, so there’s a, there’s a few people that I can think of off the top of my head that I th I looked at them and I think, oh, wow, they’re just going for it. And being really unapologetic about wanting what they want. Um, despite, like I said, the mental gymnastics and risks that they, um, that they’ve probably gone through before, before showing up and being visible and asking for what they do.

Nicola: Yeah, there’s probably a whole nother a series of conversations that have gone on and had pulled they’ve even got that. So, yeah, absolutely. And can you share a book that you would recommend that’s had a really huge impact on you? I

Michelle: had recently just listened on or on audible to untamed by yes. Yes. Oh my goodness.

That was quite the thing I’m gonna have to listen to it again.

Nicola: I have it on in the background sometimes [00:34:00] it’s always hear something different in it. Yeah. I know that

Michelle: was a now, you know, talk about someone who’s self advocated filled themselves and it was just like, I don’t want this, I want this. Um, so that has been quite something and quite a few people have said it and I was just kind of like, mm, yeah, sure.

Then listen to it. Like from chapter one, Wow, this is diff really different to anything else I’ve ever listened to or read. So I’m going to have to go back to it because I think there was a lot of profound stuff. Yeah.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think I felt like she was speaking to me directly. Oh my God.

How does she get me? I think we’re best friends now. Um, I’m finally just, what, what does find your fire mean to you? Because obviously that’s at the heart of what I do and I’m always interested what it means, people. And for me, that,

Michelle: that sounds like, you know, finding the thing that lights you up the most, the thing that you.

Do you like 24 hours a day? [00:35:00] Without, without thinking without hesitation, like if he didn’t have to work, what would you be doing for me? That’s what find your fire.

Nicola: Thank you. I love it. Love it. And where can my listeners find out more information? We can share all the details in the show notes as well, but where can they find.

Yeah. So my

Michelle: favorite place to hang out is, is LinkedIn. So just look for me under my name, Michelle Jimmer and yeah. And then connect and

Nicola: yeah. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for today. Thank you for

Michelle: having me. It’s been great. It’s been great to, to talk about this with you

Nicola: and you say welcome. You’ll say welcome.

Thanks everyone. I will see you on the next podcast and, um, yeah, I’ll speak to you soon.

I talk about really resonates with you and you love what I have to say. And you have moments and flashes of inspiration from the podcast. I would invite you to [00:36:00] get in touch, to find out how I can help you. So individually, that can be through my coaching focus program for my VIP program, depending on how you like to learn and what will suit you, or I can help you in your organization to really help the women that you work with across the organization at all different levels.

And at that very senior level to really feel empowered and to know that they can reach the very, the most senior levels in that organization and to give them the company. In who they are and the clarity and what they want to be able to get there. And we do that through workshops, do that through leadership programs, and we can do that.

Free consulting work. If you are looking for help with any of that, drop me an email nycla@nicholasschoolco.com. The spelling is not the easiest. So all the details are in the show notes results I get for clients. Clients have been promoted twice in the six months we’ve worked together. They’d been invited to join the board.

They’ve gone from redundancy to being offered three dreams. They’ve gone from being pushed out of an organization to going into a bigger organization and a bigger [00:37:00] role with a bigger pay rise and just a quote from a client that I particularly. I’ve gone from the pit of despair. When I started working with Nick to just being really fucking happy and she is an incredibly empowered leader.

Now, if you’re not quite ready for that, you can download my overwhelm to on fire guide the details that are in the show notes, but that really helps you everyday to stay in your fire. So it helps you to clear your head, helps you to come back to what’s important to you, and it helps you to have that most impact and influence every single day.

It’s a little Quip sheet that you can just go through and take the. So go and download that. Or you can subscribe to my newsletter, which comes out every Friday, which is a Roundup of the week. Really. So what’s going on in my world. What’s a blog for that week, a quick video, that’s going to help your particular subject.

And it’s all about helping female leaders to find their fire and also stats and, and any research from the industry as well. And things that I’m reading that I really love and recommendations that we’re making. So go and subscribe to that. And [00:38:00] finally, for the podcast, if you haven’t done so already, I would love you to go and leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode.

And you’re always going to have the, when that release and doing that as well. Not only helps you, but it also means that we’re going to reach more women and we’re going to be able to start that revolution to helping female leaders to keep that. Find the fire and keep it. So keep that passion, that purpose side excitement.

So if you haven’t done that already, please go and do that. Thank you.