Speaker 1 (00:00):

[inaudible]

Speaker 2 (00:12):

Welcome to the female leaders on fire podcast, episode number five, this is a podcast women leading in the corporate world

Speaker 3 (00:20):

Who wants to be a force for good and make a real difference.

Speaker 2 (00:24):

I am your host Nicola Buckley,

Speaker 3 (00:26):

And today’s episode. We’re going to be talking all about toxic gender assumptions and stereotypes it’s feels like a big, big subject. So wherever there’ll be followup podcasts, I’m sure there will be. But this actually started out as a podcast that was going to be talking about the super powers of female leaders. And I posted something on LinkedIn. I posted a poll sharing, what I saw and from a server that I recently ran, what were the superpowers of female leaders in the corporate world? So they were things that came out the top three or four things that came out, empathy, listening, compassion, attention to detail, and just his ability to see different perspectives for not having to be the person that’s kind of right. So these brilliant, brilliant superpowers came out. But as part of this post and part of what came out were also a lot of comments and a lot of feedback just around.

Speaker 3 (01:20):

Why do these traits need to be particularly for men and for women? Why are we splitting out these brilliant superpowers of leaders that are needed in the world? Why are we splitting them out into men and then separately out into women and those general traits. So this episode, now we’re going to be talking about toxic gender assumptions and stereotypes, and really how we can get past that. And just to help create a wave out a future of incredible leaders. And how do we do that across the gender spectrum, as it changes and evolves more and more. So today I’m going to be talking about just starting off by just let’s face where we are, which is the corporate while still being a man’s world that I’m going to talk about just gender stereotypes and what we perceive and what we think is actually there. So what am I going be talking about today?

Speaker 3 (02:14):

I’m going to be talking about the assumption and the facts of where we are, which is the, it’s still a man’s world and the corporate world in the main, and we’ll share some facts and numbers. What’s the impact of having more female leaders in the corporate world. Then I’m going to talk about what is this toxicity, what are the toxic behaviors, um, and what are they, what are they perceived to be for more masculine toxicity and for more feminine toxicity. And really that toxicity comes back to extremes of behavior. So how can we then bring that together? So the awesome examples of incredible leaders that I’ve worked for men and women, and then the final part, I’m going to share five steps so that we can really start to drive change now. So we see leadership almost as genderless, and it’s more about the impact that person has, the, what their gender is.

Speaker 3 (03:08):

So I’m super excited for this. This is something new, so I’m still learning. So I would love to know what you think. Um, so please feedback, and please get involved in discussion because this is just a start. So let’s start with where we actually are in the corporate world. Let’s start with a few facts and figures about the fact that the corporate world is really at its heart. It is still a man’s world, and there’s definitely some positive change is staffy. Some numbers are flowing through and larger organizations now have to account every year as part of that annual pool. They also have to share a gender pay gap study. And a lot of organizations have given this a real focus. A lot of organizations are putting in place leadership programs or they’re putting in place just really ways of encouraging more women supplies roles, especially in industries that are more male dominated.

Speaker 3 (03:58):

So stem type industries. But if you look at the stats, stats is still showing guys how the corporate world is still a man’s world. So if you take the 500 largest companies in the fortune 540, 1 of those are now headed by women and that’s improved year on year, but when we break it down, it’s still only 8%. And these tend to be the smaller companies. And for every one woman that gets promoted, there’s 12 men that get promoted. And it’s really fascinating when you go into stats, because even though there is improvement, even though there is a shift and track and trend to change at its heart, corporate world is still really a man’s world. And those numbers are changing. The bottom end. Aren’t really flowing enough through yet to have that big impact at the top end. And the more senior you become, the less women there are in organizations, because maybe they’ve chosen their family over their career because maybe they feel that they it’s just too much and they can’t keep giving so much maybe because they don’t feel supported or maybe because they feel like they have to constantly prove themselves.

Speaker 3 (05:05):

So that’s the state of where we are, but, you know, we know as well. It’s really fascinating when you look at figures and I’m a little bit of a geek, so I make no apology, but the stats and research show that for having more women leading in the corporate world and more women on the board, the impact on corporates is nothing but positive. So they tend to be more profitable companies and they tend to grow in a way that’s quicker than other companies. They tend to have more rounded cultures are different perspectives and there’s more balance and there’s more parity. And all of these things just blend together to make those companies more profitable, have more loyal employees and be more efficient. So this is really the proof of why we need more female leaders and we need it to be women feeling safe, to really challenge our status quo.

Speaker 3 (06:04):

So when I talk about toxic behavior, when I talk about these assumed gender stereotypes and behaviors, what am I actually talking about? When I talk about toxic behavior, it’s just really extremes of assumed gender behavior. So we are making some sweeping generalizations here, but this is just really to get the conversation started. And we know that there’s a huge growth and a huge change in the gender spectrum across corporates. And that is something that we’ll talk about in a future episode. And I’m really excited about a guest expert that I think we’re going to be able to get on the show to talk about that in a lot of detail, from their own personal experience. So what are these general types of toxic behavior? So it might be that they’re creating drama or nothing. It might be that they’re being a bit manipulative and controlling.

Speaker 3 (06:55):

Um, it might be that they’re being needy. It might be being overly critical and quite negative. It might be they’re blaming everyone else or blaming bad luck or other factors other than taking responsibility. It might be that they’re being envious or jealous of those around them. It might be that they’re twisting conversations or they’re taking someone’s work on as their own. So when we talk about characteristics of toxic masculinity, what are those specifically? So they tend to be being assertive, a borderline aggressive at times, they tend to be ambitious to the point of maybe stepping over people. They tend to be very strong and incredibly independent. So they find it difficult to ask for help courage. So just saying the thing that’s on their mind without thinking about it without overthinking, like women can tend to do, tend to have an absolute certainty and confidence in themselves, um, tend to be incredibly logical.

Speaker 3 (07:51):

So toxic masculinity is really the extremes of those behavior. It’s those assumed more masculine behaviors in really extreme ways, to the extent that it’s really starting to impact on how these men are perceived and how they’re understood. And it really brings together things like might be an example of more assertive kind of aggressive behavior that makes people quite uncomfortable. It might be putting other people down in front of people. It might be that they’re so resilient that they’re just not an independent, they’re not listening to other people. And these extremes of masculine behavior become toxic when they start to impact on other people. When they start to really just create a negative perception of that person and their behavior. So I am not here to say to them today that these characteristics are incredibly powerful as a leader. What I’m here today to really share with you is that too much of any type of behavior, too much of any stereotype, isn’t going to help you to be a great leader because a great leader needs to have around have feminine qualities or more masculine qualities, but they also need to understand who they are and leaders themselves to have that real impact and that influence.

Speaker 3 (09:10):

And that’s where it almost comes to point where we take gender out of leadership and we just focus on great leaders, toxic masculinity. You’ve probably heard of it before, and it’s much more clearly to find than the feminine counterpart, but it really describes a set of traditional cultural norms is amplified in the masculine behavior, but it’s got socially toxic in the way that those norms manifested things that we’ve already mentioned around the overly aggressive behavior, the assertive pave that becomes incredibly aggressive. Maybe putting someone down, maybe a standup argument with something they agree with, maybe they’re so independent that they’re not asking for how maybe they’re claiming someone else’s work. Maybe they’re feeling overly confident in their performance. Um, and there was a really interesting study that I was reading about this week, where in America, there was a series of tests that carried out on groups of men and groups of women.

Speaker 3 (10:01):

And over these series of tasks, the women actually outperform the men. But when they were asked to reflect back and think about how they’d done and what they have, they performed men gave themselves a score of 61 and women gave themselves a score of 45. So there’s a 16 point difference there in terms of that perception of how they see themselves having performed. So that is the gap that we’re facing around just women’s stepping into really owning their power and owning the impact and influence that they can have. So what about toxic femininity? So you might not have heard of this so much. So these are the qualities that we just, we associate more with women. So again, across the gender spectrum, this isn’t about behaviors that are right or wrong, which is using these structures today to start the conversation. So those stereotype characteristics tend to be more compassion and more gentle and tender.

Speaker 3 (11:00):

It can be actually that you’re passive and you don’t want to upset the status quo. You don’t want to speak up because it might hurt. Someone might be more affectionate and more tactile around people that some people maybe don’t want that it might be more emotionally ladder from the heart and like an instant reaction and emotional feeling that you just react in the moment with more empathetic and that natural instinct of understanding how people are going to feel the intuition and that leading from the heart. And just that sense of knowing something’s right, just from your experience and your understanding. And that wants to be part of a team and that really collaborative focus. So when this behavior becomes more toxic, it tends to get wrapped up in a false appearance of being helpful caring, and maybe there’s words around it’s for your own good is because I care.

Speaker 3 (11:50):

And it comes the sort of toxic when this becomes these behaviors, which data they can be incredibly powerful and be part of being an incredibly inspiring leader when they become more toxic it’s because of gang, they’ve gone past certain boundaries, they’ve gone passer and societal norms. Um, so it might be that they feel that they can’t be emotional in front of anyone. So they start relying on one particular person. It might be that it reaches boiling point. It becomes too much ends up in a shouting match. It might be that they end up crying and in tears because of a particular conversation, um, it might be that their outreach, when they’re called out for a mistake or something they’ve done wrong, it might be that they’re using sexism. And they’re using that as a reason for something, a reason why they’ve not delivered on something or something’s gone wrong.

Speaker 3 (12:36):

And it’s they using it as a reason to justify that behavior. So to be really, really clear, the toxicity is not about these characteristics that are more generally assumed to relate to femininity or masculinity. This is more about, it becomes really toxic when it becomes that we’re overusing them and that we’re over-reliant on them. And they were just in the Berry, much the extremes of the behavior. And it’s also toxic in that we’re making assumptions about people we’re making assumptions about stereotypes or scenarios or things that might make people uncomfortable. That is really where it becomes toxic, not only with a paver, that particular person, but for the people around them, but also in our own unconscious biases. Also in what we’re assuming about someone because of that sex and their agenda, but that can also be said for the unconscious bias is around race.

Speaker 3 (13:33):

And just, it’s just something that is just hugely important that we really need to shift and change in the corporate world. And it also becomes toxic when you’re too much in one or the other. So if you’re a woman and you tend to naturally just be more in the feminine, those feminine behaviors that we’ve talked about, then when you’re stepping constantly into your masculine and the doing and the pushing and the striving, you’re not truly being yourself, or if you’re a man and you’re more naturally in your masculine behaviors, but actually then you’re trying to show up with your more feminine behaviors. It’s just, you are not being yourself. And that goes for whether you’re a man or a woman, and whether these characteristics are feminine or masculine and you’re too much in one or the other, which becomes an just you playing to stereotype.

Speaker 3 (14:19):

You trying to fit the mold. You trying to become a square peg in a round hole. And you just losing those hard edges of who you are. And that being too much in one of the other is then becomes exhausting. You then have to put on a mask to go to work. You then feel fake. You then started to be disingenuous. That’s when imposter syndrome might step in that feeling of not being, of being found out and being uncomfortable. And we’re actually going to talk about imposter syndrome in episode six, because I think it’s such a huge subject. And what we really need to think about instead is really that you need parts of both to be the best leader. You need parts of the masculine and parts of the feminine you need parts being and parts doing. And actually, if I think back my best and my worst boss were a mixture.

Speaker 3 (15:09):

So my, my best boss was a woman that I worked for when I first started work. And she very much was grounded in the more feminine traits, but when she needed to be, she would very much step into the masculine. So she had this softer caring, compassionate side to coach you and develop you. But if you did something wrong, oh, you weren’t delivering, you would know about it. And that was, that was what made her great boss. And you can, if you get used the Branny brown term, this is really talking about having a straight back strong back and a soft heart. So you have that combination of, you know, your principles, you stand proud and tall in them, but you also have that softer hearts. You’re still caring. And you’re still compassionate, which is obviously a huge part of being a powerful leader. Um, really, we want to make it the norm.

Speaker 3 (15:55):

We want to make it the norm, not the exception to be able to lead as who you are and dropping away those gender stereotypes in his step, really stepping into being a leader or leading in the way that you want to without feeling any, take golf lessons or choose the right car, or have empathy. If that’s not part of your normal makeup, being aware of yourself, having that brilliant self-awareness and developing yourself as a leader. So how do we drive this change? I’m going to share six really simple steps. Now that sketch started because I think this is such a important drive to change. It’s such an important subject to cover. Really. We need elements of both to five and be the best leader we can be. We need elements of masculine. We need elements of feminine behavior, and we need to balance out that being more feminine behavior with elements of masking doing behavior.

Speaker 3 (16:45):

So if I think of my, my favorite boss, my most powerful and inspiring boss, that was someone who had a ProLiant combination of both. So there was a lot of cat, there was a lot of compassion, which meant I felt supported and I grew and I developed on, I loved working for her, but also I knew that I had to deliver. I knew that I had to deliver the projects that I was responsible for. And I had to meet her own high standards that she sat for the team. So there was in the elements of real masculine behavior. And for me, that balance just really, it was something that it just inspired to be that she could have the, those moments of care and compassion. But also this was someone that you knew with very much to be caught for you and support you, but you had to deliver to have that ongoing support.

Speaker 3 (17:31):

And what we want to be able to do is really make this a norm in the corporate world, not the exception that you can have that balance of both and that you develop as a leader with a mix of skills that feels right for you in your magic, in the way that you can become the most powerful leader you can be. And also using this, using this concept of leading as who you truly are to then step past the agenda, these gender stereotypes, which can come become hugely toxic and really supporting people across the gender spectrum to become the best possible leader they can be. And not assuming because they’re brilliant and what they do. They’re going to be a brilliant leader, but helping them draw out their skillset, helping to draw out their expertise and their brilliance and their boldness in being the best leader they can be.

Speaker 3 (18:16):

So how do we start to drive this change? So, first point I wanted to talk about was just really referring back to things I’ve talked about on the podcast before, but you do, you, you focus on becoming the, what I call the U S version of you. And that is really at the heart of diversity and equality at its most powerful, because then we’re stepping past race and background inherited and gender, and we’re helping people to thrive at all levels of management and seniority as themselves. And as part of that develop their definition of leadership and what is their magic, what is the thing that they can do? And only the way that you can do it, that has a big impact on other people and use that as a foundation for them to become an even more powerful leader. Point number two is just really self-development is a forever process.

Speaker 3 (19:09):

So how you, how you are today is not an indicator of how you will be in the future. And really when you start to lead as yourself, when you start to step past those gender stereotypes, um, is huge issues important to keep that self-development journey, taking a log and give it a focus every day and lead and leading as yourself starts with that daily check in, how am I feeling today? What do I need today? And that leads into a balance of being and doing because on a day that you’re tired, you’re not going to be doing your best work. So how on that day, do you support yourself to have some rest and to have some recovery? So the next day you’re ready to be back in doing mode. Point number three is really to make sure that leaders are signposting, what behavior is not acceptable, and this is done from the top down and at all levels, this becomes a non-negotiable.

Speaker 3 (20:00):

This becomes something that we will not setting boundaries of behavior that is not tolerated wherever that’s a man or woman, or across the gender spectrum by about, on normalizing behavior that you want to see in your culture. I’m really marking out very clearly what is not acceptable. And that, like I said, is that from the top down, but also at all levels. And that takes bravery for people to call other people out. And the example, and the role modeling needs to be from the top, so that that can filter down through the organization to be seen in all levels of the culture. So really it’s so important to really normalize the pave. You want to see a mock out what is not acceptable. So bullying is not acceptable or gender, gender bias and sexist conversations are not acceptable. And calling out those people that are behaving in that way, point number four, female qualities, women really need to own them, but men can also own them as well.

Speaker 3 (21:01):

That, and that compassion, vulnerability and women can really role model that. But so can man, and it’s really about these becoming acknowledged and seen and understood and encourage is great leadership qualities. It’s not about the feminine or the masculine, and almost removing the gender from leadership by focusing on these just being great, great, powerful qualities of inspiring leaders does point number five. We just need some make really make sure that there’s, that top-down cultural shift and it’s not about being your best self. It’s not about being authentic. It’s about being yourself. And again, that needs to be role model from the top down and really being super clear on the values of the organization, the paver that you want to see across the organization, and then role model that and support that we’ve done first in inclusion support we’ve leadership training gang, having processes to call out behavior that is not acceptable and also using tools that are beyond gender, like the drama triangle, which is just like a way of helping people to understand how they’re acting and what their behavior.

Speaker 3 (22:13):

So the big class I want to leave you with today is that right assumed behaviors that are more masculine and their issue behaviors that are more feminine. And we can still see that split in the corporate world and the numbers reflect that. But actually it’s really, really important that we encourage those behaviors in a really positive way. And we encourage people to step into them and really own them. If that’s part of them becoming a powerful leader. And on the flip side of that, we’re setting really clear boundaries when those behaviors become step past the norms and they become toxic when they get to the point where they’re impacting negatively on that person’s reputation and the people around them, and really encouraging people to go on this journey of self discovery, to know who they are to then become base that and have a foundation in their own style of leadership and create their own definition of leadership.

Speaker 3 (23:04):

And really when you start to do you, when you start to leave is who you truly are and you feel that flow and that excitement and that passion and that purpose that is you on fire. That is you at your best. And that is you being yourself. And that’s when you can really start to drop those assumptions and those, the titles of masculine and feminine and across the gender spectrum. And instead put the effort and the focus put your time, love and energy into being you. And that needs to be supported from the top down with those big cultural changes as well. I’m role modeling from the most senior levels of the organization. So that’s it for today. I’ve hope you’ve enjoyed it. I would love to know your feedback. This is a bit out of my comfort zone this week. Next week, we are going to be talking about one of my favorite subjects, which is imposter syndrome and why imposter syndrome is an actually a complete lie. And if you would like any more of my help, please drop me a email on nicola@nicholasschoolcode.com.

Speaker 2 (24:04):

And if you’re feeling a bit overwhelmed at the moment, you can download our overwhelmed on fire five step guide. All of that detail is over in the show notes, and I will see you next time. Bye.