Nicola: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to the female leaders on fire podcast. I am your host. I’m Nick Beckley. I’m the coach working with women at the very top of organizations, um, helping them to find their fires, that purpose, that passion, that excitement. And today I am here to quickly introduce our brilliant, brilliant. And this is someone that I actually did my coach training with.

I’ve known this person for a couple of years now. I always find, she just has really insightful perspectives. And I always love hearing what she has to say and what her perspective are on the big things, the big debates. So today I have the incredible ele twiddle. And what we’re gonna be talking about is really that messiness of change.

Can it be an opportunity? And that time to rethink. So she’s the offer of why losing your job could be the best thing that’s [00:01:00] ever happened to you. And she helps individuals to rethink work and see the opportunity and change and given, given the last few years and what women at the top, and just in organizations have been through this.

Episode, I think is gonna be hugely impactful because so many women have been through so much change at home at work. Some have taken pay cuts, some have moved organizations. Um, some have been furloughed, some have been following huge divisions of people. And it’s almost like as we get into something that now is more recognizable, that’s more of a steady state.

There is still an underlying sense of change, but actually more compared to the last few years. So what is the opportunity we can take from that time of change? What can we, what can you learn? What can you do differently? How can it help you evolve? Um, and I love some of the frameworks and perspectives that you have has on this.

And for me, the interview is just, she just has this calm. Ellen has this real calm sense of just knowing that actually [00:02:00] going through the process, a huge process of change can actually lead to a whole new world of opportunities and potential and become actually rather than something that’s full of dread and fear and not knowing.

Can I actually become something that’s full of hope and full of excitement, and she has so much knowledge and she has so much understanding. And she just really, for me, again, coming away from this interview, I just felt like this message is so, so important because I’ve, I have had clients that have been at the top of the organizations that have been pushed out or sidelined.

And I think it’s really important to really take back control and really still own that value and worth and look for those opportunities and just build that on the foundation. Of hope so. Yeah. So hope you really enjoyed today’s episode. It’s a really good one. If you’re someone that’s going through this, I think this will really, really resonate if you’re going through change at the moment.

Uh, do let me know what you think and if you’ve got any comments, um, or my contact details in the show notes. [00:03:00] Enjoy the show. Bye. Hello and welcome to the female leaders on fire podcast. I am your host, I’m Nicola Buckley, and I am a coach working with women at the very top of organizations, helping them to find their fire.

So really rediscover that passion, that purpose, that excitement, and that love of what they do so that they can have more impact. More influence and more income as a result and be a real force for good driving, positive change in their organizations. I’m really much, much needed change. So today I’m very excited.

I’ve got a, uh, coach that I actually trained with through our coaching qualification with me today. I’ve got Eleena twiddle with me today and we are gonna be talking about. Why being made redundant could be one of the best things that’s happened to you. So just to introduce her before she introduces herself, so a founded another door after 23 year career always shocks me when people say their numbers.

Cause I always think they’re quite very much younger. Um, a 23 year career [00:04:00] in senior management for brands, including cost of coffee, Virgin Atlantic Vodafone, and now runs a consultancy supporting business support employees through change. Helen, is it awful of why losing your job could be the best thing that ever happened to you?

She’s a podcast host and clients include channel four, Harvey Nicks, and reach PLC, and she also coaches individuals to rethink work and see opportunity in change. So welcome to the podcast today. It’s great to have you here.

Eleanor: Great to be here. Thank you for having me. Oh, you’re very

Nicola: welcome. And we were just remarking on your amazing, uh, pink headphones as well.

That DJ headphones that you have. So you’re looking very professional I would like

Eleanor: to say, you know, it is, it’s all about styling it out, even when no one can see you. You know, that’s the thing, isn’t it, you know, style it out.

Nicola: exactly, exactly. And Eleanor, um, ele I met when we were doing our coaching qualification, um, with optimist coaching academy and, um, I think you were launching

Eleanor: your [00:05:00] book at that point, weren’t you?

Oh my God. Was I? Yeah, that was a long time ago. That feels odd. Yes. The book came out in 2020, so yes, I was.

Nicola: Yeah, and I loved, I loved Ellen’s approach and I loved her energy. So she’s been on my hit list for a little while to get on the podcast. So I’m really excited that she’s here today and we’re gonna be talking about just having time to rethink, so really seeing opportunity in the messiness of change.

And we all know how messy change can be, but what are the opportunities and what are the ways to break out of a different way of thinking or being, or just doing things differently. Yeah, Ellen, just don’t wanna, um, start just by introducing yourself and just sharing a bit about how you came to be doing this great work that you’re doing now.

Eleanor: Yeah, sure. And that made me laugh about the, when people say they’re years and how long they’ve been doing something. I know that 23 years it’s like I did it. I wouldn’t even think that you would be old my 16

Nicola: year career. I’m like, oh my gosh, am I like a whole teenager? Time I’ve had a

Eleanor: concrete wall. [00:06:00] yeah, it does sound, it does feel like very grown up.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I’m nearly 50, so it’s definitely like, you know, approaching that milestone of horrendously, but oh, you know, we’re embracing it fully embracing it. It’s fine. Totally fine. I, you. Of kids, forties of rocking. Oh my goodness. Um, yes. So a corporate career for 23 years, and I started out in sales, which now I would say to everybody, start out in sales.

I just think it’s like the best groundwork for, for life. And I actually sold beer. Which was the very first thing that I sold. Yeah. So that, that was like, like living your dream. I mean, we talk about dream jobs. Don’t we think that, I mean, selling beer when you are just left university. So I did that, um, I also sold the internet and that really does age me.

So I did cold calling for a while, selling the internet, which was on a CD at the [00:07:00] time. Wow. Um, to corporates. Yeah. Corporate clients, um, telling them that this new thing is what they need in their it department. And I, it web. Exactly pecs, I think it was called. Yes. Um, so I did all that. That was sort of foundational.

And from there got into the corporate slip stream and loved working for brands that people knew. So I worked for Whitbread for a while, and then they bought Costa coffee. I went and sold coffee and I loved it. When I went to Costa, there was maybe five stores. There was about a thousand by the time I left

So, um, I think that was my first taste of growing brands and being part of something growing. And then from there did more employee communication for businesses, including Vodafone, Virgin, Atlantic RSC. So that’s kind of my background. And obviously with employee communications comes change and how. Help employees who change so that [00:08:00] that’s always kind of made sense around that, you know, how do we embrace it?

What happens when change comes along? That perhaps we haven’t really factored in, or we don’t feel like we’re owning, but the moment that I decided, okay, maybe corporate life isn’t for me anymore was I was made redundant. Yeah. I was at the time running the graduate program for Vodafone. Yeah. And, uh, made redundant, really disappointed cuz I was loving the job.

Went from other jobs. And that question came up. Why do you want this job? I remember sitting there thinking, oh, I don’t want it. Like I just, everything inside of me just wanted to say, yeah, I, I don’t, I don’t want this job. I have to have a job, obviously. So I’m here. Obviously that answer would not have got me too far.

Yeah. So on the way back from that interview, I thought, God, what happened there? Why do not want it. It’s perfect. It’s more money. It’s more responsibility. The guy was really cool guy who you’d work [00:09:00] for yeah, what’s going on. And so that was it. I started exploring what else can I do if I don’t do this? Who else am I as well?

You know, all that identity stuff, which I’m sure we will explore in our chat. Yeah. But all of that stuff just swooshed around in my head and started me exploring, which I’m still exploring five years later, you know, who, who are we? What do we do? Our identity. Yeah. Um, all of that good stuff. So yeah, that’s how I’m here today.

Nicola: Awesome. Awesome. I love it. And the identity piece, I just find. With my audience and with my clients, that’s something that is becoming more and more important. And I think. When I think of like diversity inclusion, for example, I think the biggest gift that I can give my clients, however, they identify is really the gift of knowing a really deep level who they are and creating like a really, really strong self identity, because that brings confidence because even with the world changing so [00:10:00] dramatically, constantly around us, there’s still that innate sense of being able to stand proud and all behind.

This is me and this is what’s important to me.

Eleanor: Yeah, definitely. And I think, I think the thing about that identity is a strange one. Isn’t it? Because I guess if we have been in corporate for a while, we might actually just identify with a job title and with that job title, especially if your senior manager comes things that you just take for granted.

So I’ve worked for big brands in senior management positions. So if I sent an email to somebody. I would get a response in about yeah. A minute. yeah. Um, I’d get asked things constantly. Like when I worked in corporate, I was on LinkedIn, but I didn’t post, I didn’t do anything. I got too many messages. It was overwhelming.

I just switched it off. I didn’t even update it or anything. And because you are sort of, people are pulling towards you and you think it’s, you, [00:11:00] it’s not, it’s your job title. So when you are no longer that thing and you’re suddenly, wow, I’ve got an empty inbox, I’ve got an empty diary. No one is contacting me.

No one wants anything. You’re sitting there exposed. And as you said, Nicola, it it’s a moment. Well, who am I without this stuff that I was wearing all this time? Mm oh my

Nicola: gosh. Got goosebumps. Cause I started working with a client, an amazing lady a few months ago. And one of our first conversations was that I have no, I have no idea who I am anymore.

I feel like I I’m almost dehumanized because I’ve, I don’t allow myself to feel anything at work because I’m, I’m so busy and under so much pressure and giving it so much that there’s no room. And I feel like I’ve, I’ve become this work robot. I have no sense of who I am anymore. Yeah. And like the absolute joy seeing over a few months in our, in our time and spacing everyone, our coaching calls [00:12:00] like rediscovering a passion for dancing, rediscovering a love of going to the gym, but doing.

Different things, um, depending on how she’s feeling that day and rediscovering, I love being near the coast or I love being out in nature and like honoring and committing to those things that she loves has just completely just re-lit her fire. And actually that balance with work means that. Her pace at work, she always said was 11 or 12 throughout the last couple of years in the role that she wasn’t.

And now she’s in a new role. She’s like, I’m happy for it to be a seven or eight to begin with . Um, and that, you know, will flex up and down over time, depending on what’s needed. But actually I don’t wanna lose this sense of who I am now and rediscovering actually, that she’s really, she’s quite, um, spiritual.

And she was really shocked and surprised to kind of rediscover that about herself and lean into that more and more in her intuition.

Eleanor: Yeah, I love that. I think the thing about these questions about who am I, what’s my purpose, all of this stuff. [00:13:00] It can feel a little bit overwhelming. Yeah. It can feel a bit big.

So it’s actually easier just to stay in this space of busy. I’m a bit busy, not today, maybe another day. Yeah. I’ll just keep surviving. And I think that one of the things, you know, and it’s not something you could just read a book or watch webinar and you’ve got all the answers. I think it. Things that it takes work and it, it is almost like exactly exercise, isn’t it?

You know, you can’t just do it and then you are it, you gotta keep working on it and working on it. You know, like I said, I was made redundant five years ago and I still think I’m working progress. I’m still learning. I’m still getting things wrong. I’m still failing. I’m still, yeah. You know, working it all out.

Yeah, somewhere along the line, you find little hooks, which might be values. It might be just little moments that give you answers to some things that you’ve been struggling with. And those hooks just kind of go, ah, and they’re like a little boost that kind of makes you rethink something. So yeah. I mean, your [00:14:00] client sounds like she’s had a real journey, tried to find a different word, but that’s what , that’s what it is.

But people, you know, it doesn’t always work like that for people, but it doesn’t mean that you don’t just keep trying and working it out. And you know, to me, it’s a bit like a piece of art, you know, you’ve got blank canvas. Yeah. And you put a stroke color on it and you look at it and you go, Ooh, I like that color change the color, change what the picture is.

Just keep working on it and working on it and working on it. You know, a, a piece of art that never. It’s never complete. Just keep, keep putting little alterations and changing it. That’s to me what this kind of work is it it’s never feeling like you’re gonna have to have a moment where it all comes together.

It’s just a moment where you think, yeah. Why don’t I just keep catching myself doing things? Why don’t I just keep on helping myself to rethink things in a different. I love that.

Nicola: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I love, when do you think [00:15:00] about this whole journey about knowing yourself? And we’ll talk a little bit more about change in a moment as well.

It makes, it makes me laugh a little bit and smile when clients. Clients come to me all within my audience, you know, women in my, I, I dunno who I am at the moment. I’ve, you know, stuck in this super busy hamster wheel. Just keep going. I’m the breadwinner as well. So I feel like I can’t stop. You know, what is there as well, like you said, without my job title, and it’s almost like work becomes a barometer of a good life or a bad life or a good day or a bad day.

But when you, when you look at your life as a whole, the times that you know yourself most, so when you’re a child, You just, you don’t have any conditioning about, you know, when’s to right appropriate time to ask for something. And you know, when you, when you are hungry or you are tired or you need, you need to all it, it’s just like, I’m literally, I’m being absolutely myself and there’s no filter.

And the other time that we really really know ourself, it feels like is when we’re really we’re getting older. And we’re just at the point I’ve I saw it with my grandparents, for example, especially my grand, my grand was. [00:16:00] This lovely warmhearted woman, but by her, probably in her last 10 years, she’s just becoming so direct and cutting through so much bullshit and just like, you know, what she should be doing and how she should be able.

She’s like, I don’t wanna do that. I don’t like that. Why would I do that? Um, but I think it’s, it’s the bit in the middle where we’re adults and we’re grown up and we have, you know, potentially these great roles and this great life and the house that we love and our family. And we lose this sense of who we are, but it’s almost bookended on those two different sides, but when we’re young and we’re growing up and we have this strong, this is who I, or this is what I need.

And then towards the end of our life as well, and that bit

Eleanor: in the middle where we meant

Nicola: adulting

Eleanor: and grown up and really purposeful and,

Nicola: you know, intentional time, it’s just like so many people who have that conversation with just lose that sense of who they actually are.

Eleanor: Mm. I think it’s, um, So much good stuff there in that little bit.

You’ve just said, I was like, oh yeah, that bit. Um, I was just [00:17:00] thinking there around, as you said, this no filter. So a child, or as you say, as you get older, no filter, but have a think about the last person that you maybe experienced. In our peer group or, you know, even work or friends or family or whoever, and they have no filter and have a think about how did you react to them?

Because yeah, I remember people at work. I was talking like, as if, when I used to work, of course I still work just in corporate yeah. When I used to work native pleasure. Yeah, exactly. That’s not quite how it’s, but you know, remember people in organizations and they had no filter and oh my God, they made people feel uncomfortable.

I even used to get feedback from people saying and knew you’ve got no filter. You have to really think because you’re making people feel very uncomfortable. You’re limiting yourself. You’re getting labeled. So actually. Let’s not put it all in ourselves, you know, start our fault. Yeah. As you [00:18:00] said, it’s conditioning and the people who are kind of free.

We real act and we don’t allow them. So I think that with some of the work I’m doing, it’s not all about us just being this kind of free person. We have also gotta work on ourselves to allow others to be their free person. Yeah, absolutely. And that’s where the magic is. If you can create a space. Of no judgment of like, just like, oh, look at this person being who they are.

Yeah. And that’s your contribution and it actually makes you be more who you wanna be. I don’t think it can quite work if we’re all just being unfiltered because. As you said, we’re, we’re conditioned to be like, oh my God, did you see, did you see what she did? Hear what she said today? Did you, oh, she’s getting a bit big for a boot yeah.

He thinks she’s it. You know, he, who does he think he is? All of that stuff. We are conditioned so strongly. So I think the work is actually. When [00:19:00] you feel yourself thinking that that’s the work like, no, hold the space for them. Like what, what are they actually doing? They’re just being themselves. Now. I can, I just see humor, like I just can’t stop smiling or laughing when someone just unleashes, I’m like, oh my God, you know, the freedom that I’ve.

You can connect with with when you see someone do that. Yeah. So yeah, that’s what I was thinking when you

Nicola: were. Absolutely. I, um, I listened to a B brown podcast actually on a dare to lead podcast. And I must, I must said check with myself who it was, but there was, um, she had this great guest on and she talked about the difference between living by consensus and what people think and the shoulds, if you like.

Versus actually living from your senses and what feels right for you. Yeah. Um, and what sits with you and exactly what you said around every time we give ourselves permission to do that. And to say no to something that might seem like an incredible opportunity, but doesn’t sit with us. Or [00:20:00] every time we challenge some behavior, that’s not really appropriate or makes us uncomfortable and all those different things.

And every time we’re, we are giving a tick to actually, I want to live, I don’t wanna live by consensus. I wanna live through my sense and what feels right for me, we’re giving, we are giving other people permission to do that. Mm. And the, the women that I work. Incredible in so many ways, but a big part of why I love the work that I do is that they are role models to others.

They’re, they’re often walking down a path that other women haven’t walked down before, but they’re clearing the way for other women to walk down and kind of shoulders to shoulder and join them. But without that initial person being brave enough to speak up or courageous enough to challenge something, nothing really changes.

And every time we pull someone back into actually, oh, oh, oh, I’m not sure about what this uncomfortable. I’m not sure about what you said there. I don’t think I agree. I don’t, we’re just, we are just making ’em smaller again.

Eleanor: Yeah. Yeah. It’s huge. And [00:21:00] again, that. That sounds incredible. What you’ve just described, but every single person listening to your podcast actually has the ability to do that right now.

Yeah. Because we all have people around us in all sorts of different ways and you’re right. You know, how much judgment that we put in there. Maybe it’s conscious. maybe usually subconscious how much projection that we put out there. I think there’s a lot of projection and then fear, you know, I remember in corporate people would be, would fear if there was a.

Team member that would perhaps shine a little bit brighter or, or kind of like, whoa, hang on a minute. They’re making me look stupid. Now you got that’s when you work on yourself, you know, that’s when you, is it confidence? I dunno what it is, but it’s kind of like the, the best leaders of the people that allow people to be bigger than them.

Yeah. You know, that’s part of it, isn’t it. And I was [00:22:00] looking enough to work for Virgin and. That’s one of the things Richard Branson talks about, he always talked about, I bring bigger people in to run businesses. I have an idea. And then I’m the small person really. I mean, he’s not quite, but that’s what he used to say.

Yeah. Um, yeah, because that’s how it works. Like that’s a strong leader bringing, you know, letting people rise. Absolutely. That’s the work that we can do. We can help others. To have their space. It doesn’t always have to be us that has all the answers that has to be right. That has to, you know, shine. Yeah.

So, and that’s hard. That’s very hard because you know, we, again, we are pre-programmed aren’t we to win.

Nicola: Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking as you were speaker as well, just, um, B brown and the, uh, oh, we got B browner podcast. Yeah. Consistently today, but, um, daring versus armored leadership. Yeah. And the armored leadership.

This is direction we’re going in. This is my way, this is how we’re getting there. [00:23:00] Whereas, and you know, maybe defensive around questions and being challenged and not open to learn so much and almost bit of a fixed mindset, whereas that the daring leadership on the other side of that is this is the direction we’re going in.

How do we get that? This is my view, but actually how do we get there through using everyone’s knowledge and expertise and ask me questions, challenge me. Yeah. Um, and become part of how we shift to get there. And I think that allowing people to be bigger than you is, is part of that, isn’t it. And also an innate confidence in yourself.

That actually is a, like you said, as a leader, how incredible to be able to have that to someone else. At some point that’s been part of your journey and has been someone that you’ve bought along the journey with you.

Eleanor: Yeah. Oh, definitely. And I love the sort of, um, it’s kind of like a juxtaposition of the leader that like, what you described kind of is this is, this is what we are gonna do.

This is the north star, everyone follow me. This is the [00:24:00] instruction. Yeah, exactly. They probably have. The least confidence. And they have probably, I mean, you work with a lot of leaders. This is where, when you take layers away, there is quite a lot of things that they maybe haven’t worked through. They haven’t, you know, they.

They’re running at the top of the iceberg, but actually underneath is a lot of things they haven’t resolved. Yeah. Whereas the other description of someone who’s a bit deeper and more willing to kind of bring people along, they’ve kind of probably either addressing things as more awareness there.

They’re driven by different things. Yeah. So it’s kind of like the irony of what we see a leader to be. And again, our expectation of, oh, that’s good leadership. Yeah. And I do actually think again, we gotta take responsibility that we feed that and we don’t challenge ourselves enough. So in organizations, yeah, I used to.

Well, I still do. I do, you know, change programs for, for businesses. And the [00:25:00] number one thing in a listening session is always, wow, there’s no direction. Oh, there’s no north star. Oh, there’s no vision. Yeah. And it frustrates me because it’s like, well, we all know what we’re doing here. Why don’t you just do your job really well.

You don’t need to sit there until someone says, okay, that’s where we’re going. Yeah. You can create, you know, you have so much more choice and ownership. Yeah. So I think that that’s the challenge for us that it’s kind of easy to, it’s actually easy to instruct and it’s easy to want to be instructed. Yeah.

It’s not so easy to live in the other. Yeah, absolutely.

Nicola: Absolutely. So if we just focus on change as well, cause I really wanted to talk to you about this cause I just find it. Absolutely just fascinating as well. I don’t think there’s been more change in the, in last hundreds of years versus in the last probably two years.

Yeah. Um, but it’s still happening very dramatically right now. But where you talk about it being [00:26:00] an opportunity. Can you just share a bit more about that? Cause I, I just love that idea.

Eleanor: Yeah. And I think as you said, I think the last two, two years has really. Expedited that whole sense. Um, it was always there, there was always opportunity in change, but you know, it was kind of easy for us not to see it and just, yeah.

Kind of, you know, do what we gotta do and move on. But now I think it’s, it’s really exposed and, and it, some of us have had to think differently. Either through redundancy or a business closing or, you know, we’re in a situation where, okay, I have to rethink, I have to see opportunity in this because what’s the alternative and other people are more wanting it.

It’s more of a kind of pull factor. It’s more like, well, what, what could my future look like? And how can I see this differently? And I think what’s happened in the last couple of years is that choice has become. Closer to the [00:27:00] surface and it’s feeling more attainable. It doesn’t feel so far away. It doesn’t feel like magic only magical people do these sort of things.

And the more we hear about, oh, so, and so next door’s doing blah, blah, blah. Yeah. The more it makes us feel. Oh, maybe I can think differently about something. So yeah. Seeing changes opportunity. Was a, a theme. I kind of looked at last year when I was working with businesses, going through change and understanding again, this thing around.

Organizations make change. And the instant thing that happens is, is most people resist. There’s a resistance to, oh my God, what are they doing? Oh my, you know, panic worry, unsettling feelings. And that’s completely,

Nicola: it’s the kind of, what does it mean for me? Isn’t it just obviously paralyzing and the, the lack of certainty.

Eleanor: Yes. And, and the questions that we allow in, whereas if we kind of work through. We’ve got in another door. We’ve got a process that we work through with employees [00:28:00] that allow them to say, well, hold space to really understand what the change is because quite often, We, uh, process change because of the people around us or through limited information or through an internal story that we’ve told ourselves, not through fact.

So we go, oh, this is gonna happen. This is gonna happen. Oh, I can’t do this. I can’t do that. And we spend an innate amount of time in a space. With no fact. Yeah. You know, it’s like, it’s just where, well, what if this happens? Well, what if that happens? Oh, so, so this and what, and it’s all a waste of energy.

Yeah. So part of the first step is to just slow down. Yeah. And I know you do. Pieces of work as well. And Nicola around that slowing down of thinking to go, well, where am I at right now? What do I know? What can I con control? What’s really going on? What is the actual change that’s happening and how does it impact me?

Yeah. Once you’ve got that, then you can start working through, right. How am I [00:29:00] reacting? Okay. I need to own this. If I’m getting frustrated and rude and angry. Actually, I’m not helping myself. If I’m getting argumentative, if I’m bringing stress home, how is that helping and serving anybody? Yeah. And you can control all of that.

Again, it takes work, but you can control your responses. You can watch what you’re doing. You can hold this kind of, I call it flutter where you kind of just hold a little bit of space above something is happening. Yeah. So you catch yourself going, oh my God. But you go, no, fluter take yourself out a little bit.

Breathe. Exactly. Just check before you react, like what is going on and then start processing. Yeah. And once you get into that space, then ideas come, then you see possibility, you hear different conversations, you know, like, you know, you’ve worked for organizations, Nicola where yeah. You think, how did they get that chance?

I’d love to work in that project. How did they get that? Yeah, they saw opportunity. They put [00:30:00] themselves in a place they might. Been involved in a good debate and okay. Sometimes in organizations let’s face it, it is face bits and blah, blah, blah. But you can also make that, make your face bit, make yourself, put yourself in those positions.

Yeah. That you can say, Hey, this project that’s going on. Can I get involved is an opportunity for me. Cause unless you ask, you won’t know. Yeah. So it’s this exploration. This changes opportunity. It might be a moment where you go, do you know what? This just isn’t for me anymore. I’m so clear that it it’s time to go.

It’s time to do something different. So, and

Nicola: all of that’s. Okay. Isn’t it. It’s almost exactly allowing yourself to be open to what it means and not. Yeah. Not attach yourself to a certain outcome of, yeah. It needs to look like this. Otherwise it’s a failure for me or, yeah. And I love the, I love the nearest, but for me, everything that you’ve said there fits with like a really neuroscience led approach yeah.

Of, you know, coming out of the [00:31:00] unconscious brain and the, you know, the brain doesn’t like, it doesn’t like change. The brain likes the same thing happening day and day out for us. That’s safety. That’s hard wired into us. So actually if you’re slowing things down and you’re not going into kind of what I call the what ifs.

Yeah. And many women are amazing at this. Like, oh, if this happens and then I mean this and this and this and this, and, you know, suddenly before. Before they’ve even kind of, you know, thought about in a logical way. They’re, they’re living on their own and their destitute and they have way too many caps and their whole life is, you know, gone up in smoke from where they were.

And it’s like, well, if we just, we just come back to, that’s like worst case scenario, that’s like allowing yourself to kind of, you know, this is the worst thing that can happen if you come back from that. But if the neuroscience have changed, just creating prediction response. So in that moment, you know, You look at the locus of control, what is in with, within my control.

Actually, I know that I’m not gonna know if it was worry about redundancy. I know that we are not gonna know anything more until X date. Yeah. So what can [00:32:00] I do before then? I can have, have conversations. I can share how I’m feeling. I can be clear on the opportunities that actually might fit with me, or I can get clear on, um, uh, would I, would I take it or would I do something look for a different role?

Yeah. That’s

Eleanor: exactly it. And it’s, it’s that slowing down piece, whereas yeah. As you say everything inside us wants to speed up to get that resolution. Yeah. And to just fix it and then we can all move on, but in speeding up, we kind of miss, we miss the opportunities and we miss perhaps what we’re telling ourselves.

Yeah. Um, so I, I think it is the. It’s this kind of conflict of change being something we wanna push through. And even that is in organizations it’s, uh, drum beat through to us, you know, these things like how to drive, change through an organization and drive drive. It sounds like I can’t doesn’t it exactly.

I can’t stand that. You know, I saw somebody giving a [00:33:00] speech and it was called that. It was actually a really good speech and I just thought, oh God, you don’t drive change through an organization. You know, people move through change. It’s kind of like, or support

Nicola: them or allow, allow them. Oh yeah. You

Eleanor: know, it’s a more productive, it’s a more productive, uh, experience than driving change.

Yeah. so, yeah, even that makes us feel like, oh, there’s a start and there’s an end and I just need to push through this and then it’ll be fine. But yeah, slowing it down. You will discover things. You will question. Better questions as well. So you might have lots of questions. And again, I bring things down into real simplistic forms.

So when I run a big coms program for change, yes, we put listing sessions in and the, you know, directors turn up and what happens. Everyone folds their arms and they try to ask the most awkward, useless questions. has anyone ever attended a listing session that was useful? And it’s because we are not asking good questions [00:34:00] from deep roots, we’re asking.

Panic questions, you know, like, well, when is this gonna happen? Well, I’ve just said, we don’t know. Yeah. But when is it gonna happen? That’s it’s pointless. This is a waste of time. They, they don’t know. And you are just asking and, and it’s that kind of thing. It’s, it’s owning the quality of, of what you’re asking yourself.

And of others to help yourself to be okay, because that, that is a choice you can move through change and be okay with it. So, yeah, that is my interest. And, and that’s what I’m kind of constantly looking at when I’m working on these change programs. Like how can you help people to better move through change?

Yeah.

Nicola: Brilliant. I love it. If, if someone at the moment is listening and they’re, they’re facing a big change. And they’re just, they don’t have that certainty at the moment. And I think we’ve, I think we’ve kind of touched on it anyway, but what, where could they start to just feel that more? What I call kind of, rather than, like you said, the panic and the fear [00:35:00] based thinking and questions and reaction into more of a, a grounded approach.

Eleanor: Mm there’s a few things. It kind of depends on. Character to a degree, but have a go have a play with one of the things he is thinking about. You’re standing in a square or any shape can be a circle, but you’re standing in a many shapes are available. Any exactly. We’re not going to just be square shapes.

Exactly. Uh, any shape, think for favorite shape and you are standing in it. Yeah. And you can visualize it and start to think about right. Where am I at right now? And like what we’ve sort of discussed, what is in my control? What are the things that aren’t, what do I know for sure? Yeah. What other things I’m telling myself?

What’s the internal chatter. Yeah. And the reason why you draw a shape and you’re sort. Putting yourself in that with, with everything that you have [00:36:00] in, in your control and your sphere is then you can start to see things outside of your shape differently. So you know, that chatter at the water cooler, if that is even a thing at the moment, I dunno the chatter on the, uh, rogue zoom call where everyone’s okay.

Yeah. Let’s jump on this. You know, maybe it’s that that’s going on outside your shape. You don’t need to bring that in. You don’t need. Take it all in. You can choose to, if it is helping you, but beware of group, think beware of influencers, bringing you in how much energy are you spending outside of your shape, you know, helping other people and, uh, getting involved in stuff and worries that you don’t need to.

So really challenge yourself about, well, what am I bringing into my space? Yeah. Consciously and how is it helping me? And I think that’s the first kind of foundation. Good change and owning change. Yeah. It’s really understanding that actually you’ve got more control over how [00:37:00] you’re responding that maybe it might feel like, you know?

Yeah. So we feel done too. We feel like it’s not fair. We feel like they dunno what they’re doing. We feel like, oh, all of this frustration around it all, but we are still choosing to feel that. So the minute you put yourself in your space, You can quieten down and go, okay, well, how do I actually wanna feel about this?

Yeah. So that would be where I would start.

Nicola: Brilliant. Brilliant. And if someone’s listening and they are at the moment, correct? They were, they’re working through a change program in an organization. What sort of thing should they be considering to support their, um, teams and employees with that process?

Eleanor: Mm. Oh, this, well, this is the huge, this is a big one. It feels like a good one. Yeah. This is the big one. I am on my mission. What are the top tips to people? So I mean the traditional thing and what I would do. And so I’m not dissing any of this stuff. You know, you go in, you create an [00:38:00] amazing change program.

The leaders have all, probably gone away on a beautiful offsite or something and created. Change, maybe. Yeah, it could be weeks of work, months of work years. So it depends on what’s going on. Then they bring in a comms person like myself and say, oh, create this beautiful communication we need to now go out and, and tell everybody

Nicola: great idea that we had on our away

Eleanor: day.

Exactly. And you know, we’ve got usually a consultant to come in and I dunno what they do, but they’ve made some beautiful slides, actually never beautiful slides. Don’t you ever think that like the consultancy slides are never beautiful? Are they never, it’s like, why is this we’re paying you? I love about that.

We pay, I just remembering organizations paying an order amount of money is when you, when you see the budget and you’re like, really? And then they, yeah, they basically tell the organization what you, what you’ve been telling for the last X number years. Oh, yeah. And they don’t even bother to put a nice graphic yeah.

Don’t even bother to make a [00:39:00] nice gift or anything, but anyway, um, but this is life. Uh, so that’s what happens. And so someone like me would come and do beautiful comms plan. Oh yes. We would put listening sessions in there. We’d do Q and A’s. We’d get two. Of course we would, but these are kind of layers. If you think about a layered approach.

So this is the top layer telling, sharing the vision. You’ve got the kind of middle layer of briefing and yeah. How to support managers, to support people, to listen and take their questions. And then you’ve got everybody sitting there going, what the heck is going on. And it’s basically a mismatch where you’ve gotta think that everybody now that’s about to be told this message is about.

Depending on how big it is. There are a couple of days, weeks, months behind you. You’ve all been away in a room and you understand the ins, the outs, the yeses, the nos, the whys. It it’s completely clear to you, everyone else. This is new. So why shouldn’t they have the same space to absorb it [00:40:00] and filter it through their lens?

That is not a listening session that is giving people space and time to think about it and the tools to understand change. So we throw all this beautiful coms at people and they all just fold their arms and go, oh my God, I’m not doing that. Oh my God. What about my job? What about this? What about that?

Yeah. Get, get in touch with the union and they start rallying and defending against. In which whatever way, and this is why change suddenly gets hard because people then look for blame people, then look for the reasons why it won’t work. And you’ve got a disconnect everyone’s trying to catch up with this beautiful vision, but they’re miles behind in the processing.

So I think it’s, um, a case of. Kind of giving people that space to process. So don’t fill them with answers. Don’t do a bloody Q and a don’t do all that stuff. Just let them be. And I can, when I tell people about this kind of feeling, you can also translate it into actual personal life. [00:41:00] And we really laughed a couple of weeks ago cuz we had this very similar, um, personal exchange, which was exactly that process where I wanted to change round.

This is gonna sound ridiculous. I want you to change around the living room. Yeah, my husband’s away at the moment. So, you know, who cares? I just, I want to change the living room. I told him, oh, I’m gonna get a new surf and we’re put here. What, why? Whoa, hang on. Whoa, slow down. Well, like it was as if I’d sort of, you know, knocked the house down every, but the change process is everywhere.

You know, like when we deliver and use to friends and family, They’re like what, what, you know, to you, it’s absolutely clear. Oh, want you clear? I want to do something different. It’s completely clear. Cuz you’ve been sitting with this for a long time. You’ve been working with it, but everyone else they’re catching up now.

Yeah. And they’re going through their own filters because we all naturally do that. You know? We, we tell a story and then we filter it through our own filters. Like, oh my God, should I do that? I mean, would I do that? What would I do? I [00:42:00] don’t know. Oh, this is what make it, give it, give it

Nicola: meaning and kind of, yeah, exactly.

This is what it means to me. Yeah.

Eleanor: So we are behind, we’re always behind on the processing of change. So I would just give a bit more respect to that, whether it is moving furniture or it’s actually a huge transformation in organization. It’s that it’s that space to let everybody catch up with your amazing vision, because that’s when deep change and real meaning happens.

That’s where connection works. That’s where engagement works. It doesn’t work by just telling people, ordering people throw out more calms. I mean, the amount of times that I’ve been brought into a meeting to say this change isn’t working, we need more coms. People are not understanding it. More coms, more coms.

It’s maybe more comes, but it’s probably more time to think. Yeah.

Nicola: It’s almost like the listening sessions rather than it being like the CEO or the MD or someone sharing, you know, something and, and. Answering questions. It’s almost [00:43:00] letting people just speak and just like sharing how they’re feeling or sharing their worries and whether that’s anonymous or whatever way.

It’s just like, rather than those being those type of listen sessions, almost like a listen session of like just a, a really free session where people just come together and it’s, you know, can be anonymous if you want it to be, if you feel safe with that, just like, what are you, what are you feeling at the moment?

Yeah. What your, you know, what are your worries? What are you. What’s the story that playing out for you, that’s it? Yeah. Like you said, it’s almost like if, if you know, the senior leadership team are that far ahead and they’ve been looking at this for months and they have the plan, they have the strategy.

That’s great. But actually the people that are gonna implement it, if they’re just finding out is that time, isn’t it. To really buy into it and work out. What does it mean for me? That’s

Eleanor: it. Yeah. And that’s, I mean, that’s, we’ve got a whole five, five kind of step process of frameworks that we are testing at the moment.

Yeah. That people are going through in this. Yeah. And so that’s like the deeper. More kind of [00:44:00] supportive option, but you’re right. It doesn’t have to be a, a huge deep program. It can be just asking questions, but I think we are kind of, it goes back to the thing we were actually talking about, about busy.

Yeah. And doing, being more valued unless we are doing, unless we have answers, unless we’re telling, we don’t feel like we are being productive. Yeah. And that’s the challenge it’s like sometimes. Being productive is nothing. It’s it is allowing a space. Yeah, absolutely. Where you don’t have answers where you don’t tell somebody something.

Um, and that’s, again, the work that we could kind of bring into making change a bit better in yeah. Ourselves and organizations

Nicola: creating time and space. Isn’t it. I know for many, many women that I work with and I think women in, in the audience, uh they’re at that point, you know, career where they have a lot of responsibility.

So actually they. You know, we know that women are judged more on performance, not on potential. So they’re in that mode of like, I’m gonna keep [00:45:00] demonstrating this great job that I’m doing. Um, and in that it takes away the time and space and. A lot of the women that are very senior it’s like, you’re not just paid for doing anymore.

You’re paid for thinking, you’re paid for strategy. You’re paid for, you know, setting a direction. And that doesn’t come in answering a hundred emails a day that comes in in having three hours to really think and feel and do some research and go back to some numbers and, you know, get the whiteboard out.

Let’s go on fashioned or, you know, just be really. Start to be creative and creative doesn’t happen in, and that strategic part of creating that direction doesn’t happen in that day to day at all.

Eleanor: Yeah, absolutely. I think the best CEOs, female CEOs I’ve worked for, or with the cleverest thing they do is ask questions at the right moment.

And yeah, there’s just a, I, there’s just something I’ve seen, you know, seen this skill of just when somebody else. [00:46:00] Ask a question. Um, when someone else might have an answer or say, I think this, I think that this is my opinion. It’s, they’re doing the opposite. They are asking questions. And I think that’s a really powerful thing that actually during times of change, ask more questions than.

You have answers. I

Nicola: love that. I love that. And not making the assumptions about those answers and presenting them back. Yeah. Because that, if they’re not what people are thinking or where they are, that creates an instant disconnect of, well, you’re not, you don’t get it. You don’t understand me. Yeah. Yeah, which is almost worse than saying nothing.

Isn’t it?

Eleanor: oh yeah. Oh yeah. It will undo. It will undo your good work for sure.

Nicola: Yeah. Oh my gosh. There’s so much more we could talk

Eleanor: about, but I’m conscious of

Nicola: time. So is there a final message you’d like to leave with, um, our audience today just about change and how to create those opportunities in change?

Cuz I think there’s some great, great tips and great first steps [00:47:00] there to. .

Eleanor: Yeah, well, my, my whole thing started with losing the job and that’s the first change, you know, redundancy is probably a big change. And how do you see that as an opportunity and then, and then realizing that actually that same thinking is in, even if you’re in work and you’re sitting there and change is happening to you, it’s the same thing.

Like, yeah, it’s disrupt, it’s a disruption of your thoughts. It’s a disruption of what we know, but that’s not a bad thing. So the first thing I’d say. If change is happening around you, step into that shape that. Yeah. Discuss step into your space. Yeah. And really own it. And really start to challenge yourself on, well, what am I doing?

How am I really owning this? How am I fueling it? How is the things that I’m doing serving me and what we said before? I think the most powerful thing is other people. So how am I helping others? How am I creating space for others? And that’s where I’d start. And [00:48:00] from there. I think it’s just one of these things that you go exploring.

That’s how I talk about it. You know, you just be curious, open up exactly. You just open up and you go exploring and you just start to see things very differently. So I think anybody can see an opportunity in change. Yes. There’s different barriers that are thrown at us, but there’s so many examples out there of, of people who’ve done it, that you can take energy from it.

And, and really why not give it go yourself?

Nicola: Love it. Absolutely love it. Um, and final question. What does find your fire mean to you?

Eleanor: find your fire. I love it. Well, I mean, it instantly has an image, doesn’t it? In your head. Yeah. It’s such a powerful concept of find your fire and your lit up. Yeah. And I think it is in that space of exploring.

So it’s not necessarily being the most ferocious, the most, the biggest, the best to me. It’s. You’re on this [00:49:00] exploration, you’re on fire and you are exploring and you’re becoming open to ideas and possibilities. That’s what it means.

Nicola: I love it. I love it. Yeah. So you’re kind of curious and you’re open and you are, oh, these are things that fit with me and this is what feels exciting and energizing.

And I’m gonna do more of that and see where it leads. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and where can my, uh, where can our audience find out more about you and the work that you do? Where do you tend to hang out?

Eleanor: Um, I’m mostly on LinkedIn when I’m not getting kicked off. I got kicked off a few days paper I saw that I did see that she’s been a rebel.

I don’t think she’s been a rebel. I don’t even think it was particularly anything. So yeah, it’s really disappointing to, yeah. Disappointing to get kicked off for just a, a bot error. But anyway, so , so LinkedIn is where I’m mostly at, or the business is another door.co.

Nicola: Brilliant. And we’ll, we’ll pop all that in the show notes anyway, so people can easily find you.

So, and just to say, thank you so much for today. It’s been amazing. I was looking [00:50:00] forward to our conversation and, uh, yeah, it’s been absolutely brilliant. So thank you so

Eleanor: much. Yeah, I think we could have chatted all day. Really? I think we could. Yeah, maybe.

Thanks.

Nicola: Thanks so much. And thanks everyone. Speak to you on the next podcast. Bye.

If what I took about really resonates with you and you love what I have to say, and you have moments and flashes of inspiration from the podcast. I would invite you to get in touch, to find out how I can help you. So individually, that can be through my coaching focus program or my V I P program, depending on how you like to learn and what will suit you, or I can help you in your organization to really help the women that you work with across your organization at all different levels.

And at that very senior level to really feel empowered and to know that they can reach the [00:51:00] very, the most senior levels in that organization and to give them the confide. In who they are and the clarity and what they want to be able to get there. And we do that through workshops. We do that through leadership programs, and we can do that through consulting work.

If you are looking for help with any of that, drop me an email Nicola Nicola score, code.com. The spellings are the easiest. So all the details are the show notes results I get for clients. Clients have been promoted twice in the six months we’ve worked together. They’ve been invited to join the board.

They’ve gone from redundancy to being offered three dream jobs. They’ve gone from being pushed out of an organization to going into a bigger organization in a bigger role with a bigger pay rise and just a quote from a client that I particularly. I’ve gone from the pit of despair. When I started working with Nick to just being really happy and she is an incredibly empowered leader.

Now, if you’re not quite ready for that, you can download my overwhelm on fire guide the details that are in the show notes, but that really helps you every day to stay in your fire. So it helps you to clear your [00:52:00] head. It helps you to come back to what’s important to you, and it helps you to have that most impact and influence every single day.

And it’s a little CRI sheet that you can just go through and tick things. So go and download that. Or you can subscribe to my newsletter, which comes out every Friday, which is a Roundup of the week. Really. So what’s going on in my world. What’s a blog for that week, a quick video, that’s gonna help your particular subject.

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And doing that as well. Not only helps you, but it also means that we are gonna reach more women and we’re gonna be able to start that revolution to helping female leaders, to keep that fire, find their fire and keep it. [00:53:00] So keep that passion, that purpose, that excitement. So if you haven’t done that already, please go and do that.

Thank you.