Nicola: [00:00:00] Hello,

welcome to the female leaders on fire podcast. I’m your host. I’m Nick Beckley, the coachwork women at the very top of organizations, helping them to find their fire sat, passion, that purpose, that excitement. So they can have more impact, more influence. And as a result, drive much nearly positive change in organizations.

Um, today I am here to introduce our brilliant guest, Wendy Harris, and Wendy is gonna be talking all about how to make conversations count. So Wendy. Is an absolute bundle of positive energy. Um, she is the queen of conversations and she’s a, uh, telemarketing trainer with over a million calls made. So she really knows how to have impactful and influential conversations really make those conversations count.

But really what I love about Wendy is just [00:01:00] really her dynamism, her really positive energy and how she. Breaks us down to bring it back to who you are to being true, to being real, to being authentic, um, which is a huge part of what I teach and coach on my leadership program. So all this really, really resonated with me.

Cause I think sometimes we can make. How to have more impact and more influence, overly complicated, make it around models and things that you need to do in certain behaviors. Whereas actually that doesn’t need to be an authentic and real. So I love this framework that when it’s created around having conversations that count, but doing it in a real and true way, leading from the heart.

So I think you’re gonna get a huge amount from today. I would love to hear what you think if you’ve got any comments. Um, all my contact details are in the show notes and enjoy the show. Bye. Hello and welcome to the female leaders on fire podcast. I am your host, I’m Nicola Beckley, and I am the coach working with women at the top of [00:02:00] organizations, helping them to find their fire, to find that that purpose, that passion and.

So that they can be a real force for good in organizations and have more impact and more influence and income as a result on the podcast today, I’m very excited cuz we have a guest and we have, um, Wendy Harris and Wendy booked this a little while ago. So I was super excited and I just had a look at her form as I was coming in.

And I think this is gonna be so, so relevant and I’m. I’m really intrigued to see where this conversation leads us. So just to introduce Wendy, so she is the queen of conversations. Um, so she’s a telemarketing trainer with over a million calls made, which makes my head bleed. My gosh, that’s amazing. Uh, a hundreds of agents steered to start in conversation with strangers to get, to create a great first impression, build relationships and grow their business.

She’s the offer of making convers. Count how to sell over the phone. And she’s a podcast host asking business leaders for their experiences and that one conversation that [00:03:00] created a turning point. So I am so excited to have her here today, cuz I think this is so relevant to women at the top to be brave enough to have those conversations.

To have the courage to speak up to not just shy away from just having a different perspective and point of view in meetings, just to really just trust and know and own that conversation. So I’m really excited that you are here, Wendy.

Wendy: Welcome. . Hi Nicola. Thank you so much for inviting me on. It seems like I’ve had to wait for such a long time to get here.

I know. So. So what you’ve said there in the intro. Yeah. I say often is you never know where a conversation will lead. Yeah. So let’s see what unfolds. I’m excited.

Nicola: I’m super excited. I know you booked in a while ago and I think it’s that thing. It feels like age’s way. And then suddenly it’s here. So I’m

Wendy: excited.

It’s a bit like going. While it’s Easter soon or it’s Christmas. And then they go, Christmas is next week. Like it’s the [00:04:00] same time every year, but this is slightly different. .

Nicola: So when, if you could just start off just by sharing a little bit about your story. I always, I, I love stories. I love hearing about how people have come to be.

Doing the work that they’re doing now. Cause often the people I speak to it’s their passion work. It’s, they’ve found that purpose and I they’ve fallen in love with what they do and it’s kind like their gift to the world. So can you share just a little bit of the story of how you came to doing this, this great work that you’re doing now?

Cause I’m really

Wendy: intrigued. Well, April 20, 22 mark, 17 years of me running my own business. Wow. So. So that kind of made me go, oh my goodness. Congratulations. That’s a long time. Thank you. And I started making conversations, accounting business with my first corporate job in 1987 and some of your listeners will not have even been born or thought about by then.

And it. It, it came by [00:05:00] accident and like lots of things like starting my business 17 years ago came about by accident. And it was, it it’s. I think listeners will, will, will recognize this, that it was a needs must when I was 17, I needed to leave home because my mom and stepdad were getting divorced. So I really needed to earn money to pay rent somewhere else because they were splitting up.

And there were no plans for me. I was 17 years old, you know, back then in the eighties, poor, you know, if you weren’t down the mines, , you know, you’d got bringing in the bread and butter, you’d got to fend for yourself. And, um, and I just thought for my own sanity that I needed to do that. So I applied for a job which was for a telesales job, just account management for the interview experience.

And I landed the job and quickly. You know, sort of moved up the ranks within that company to looking after national accounts. And, you know, [00:06:00] everybody says you are natural at it. And all it comes down to is that I love helping people, so they might have one problem. But if they’re talking about something else, I’ll automatically just go into, fix it.

Yeah. And that’s it, you know? Um, a little intuitive. Yeah. Um, so I work with people now where, who really just go well, but I don’t know how to pick up the phone and start those conversations. Yeah. And it’s all about mindset and aligning why you want to have that conversation. . Yeah, I love

that.

Nicola: Absolutely.

Absolutely. And I think for many women at the top, I think I loved for your podcast as well. That there’s those one conversations that change your life. And I, I, I already think of mine from when we do, uh, we get that booked in, but I think for a lot of, a lot of women that I work with, they can really struggle.

Over time, just maybe through, well, not [00:07:00] maybe I know, um, through not feeling heard or not feeling appreciated or they feel like they’re paid lip service to, especially the very senior women. It’s almost like the, the, the token woman on the board, for example, quite often. So kind of lose that. Almost lose their voice a little bit or feel like they’re not heard.

So why bother over time? It doesn’t, it’s not gonna make a difference. Anyway, do you, do you find that a lot with people that you work with?

Wendy: I do think that there are two camps there’s, there’s, there’s Mars and there’s Venus let’s put it like that. And you, I find when it comes to dealing with Venus that we think that we’re saying things yeah.

In a certain way. And actual fact, the words that are coming out of our mouth has got a subtext and that it’s that layer of feeling that we are suppressing. So we might be saying, well, that’s fine, but I think that I could do with some help with this, whereas our [00:08:00] subtext is going, why aren’t you listening to me when I really need some help?

And you’re just gonna throw all of this on me. So it’s not gonna ever work. So in actual fact, the conversation that we’re having is not the conversation that’s being heard, because what we are telling ourselves is really reflecting out in the way that we talk mm-hmm in our body language. Yeah. And the other person is going there.

Some not right here. .

Nicola: Yeah, it’s almost like a mismatch between,

Wendy: so you’ve got to be completely in alignment. Yeah. And this is why Venus tends to get angry and shouts a lot and gets frustrated a lot because we expect people to be mind readers. Yeah. We, we are scared of actually. Being the voice that comes from, from the heart.

Yeah. And being that honest, I think there’s a certain amount of honesty that’s lost because we’re expected to behave in certain ways. Mm

Nicola: hugely hugely. So when you talk about, and I love that you say this, when you talk [00:09:00] about that process of alignment before that conversation. What steps are there to, to do that.

So I talk about alignment with clients, but in relation to their values. So what’s, what’s your, what are your steps to be in alignment with? This is what I wanna actually want to say.

Wendy: I think it, it, it is, it’s gonna sound a bit. Woo, woo. But, um, it’s no,

Nicola: we’re big fans

Wendy: of, we here’s, it’s the belief that you.

Yeah. If you, if you believe that you are not going to be heard, even though you are going to say something, guess what? Yeah. You’re not going to be heard. If you go into a conversation with the outcome in mind saying you are going to hear me. When I say this today. I’m going to be sure that you are going to hear me when I say this today.

Guess what? yeah, they’ll hear you. So, you know, in the majority of my [00:10:00] trainings, yes, I can help with scripts and processes and, uh, sharpening up tactic. And strategies and all of these different things. Yeah. But ultimately, if you don’t believe that what you are doing is helpful from your own standpoint, that’s never gonna rub off on anybody else.

Yeah.

Nicola: So almost that, that lack of belief just carries through in that the energy, how you say it, your tone. Yes. Or your posture, all, all the

Wendy: things. I’m glad you said that word energy. Cause I love, I love that word. Energy. Yeah. Everything is energy. Yeah, absolutely.

Nicola: Absolutely. So if, if we’ve got a woman at the top end, so she’s going into meeting and she’s got that misalignment, but she’s actually listening to this and starting to think about how can I feel a bit more aligned.

But she’s maybe not feeling as confident at the moment if she’s had a bit of a knock or if she feel like she feels like she’s not being heard, how can they start to make that [00:11:00] shift being in alignment? And that, that energy of, you know, almost being like magnetic and I have

Wendy: to listen, I can only explain it in the way that my good coach explains it.

and that’s Rob beg. So occasionally I do get on with. You know, it’s quite freaky and, and he always says, have the end in mind. Oh yeah, yeah. Say more about that. So when, when you, and, and people say this, you know, you know, you, you go to the end of your goals, you know, you, so it’s everything for me in my training is interactive because I want it to be experiential.

Yeah, I want you to feel it. So, you know, just from the, the training that I do with, with picking up the phone, that then leaks out into all the other aspects. So if you’re going into a face to face meeting, you’re on a zoom call, look how pink my neck is. Cause I’m talking about my passion. Cause I’m in absolute alignment with what it is that [00:12:00] I’m talking about.

So you go in, go in, this is going to be a great conversation. I’m gonna have a great outcome from this. I, yeah. What I get from it is not the thing. It’s the feeling I’m going to get. So if you can hang onto that feeling of satisfaction yeah, but you’ve been heard. Yeah. That there’s been a, a movement. Yeah, that there’s been a release.

That’s kind of where you, your, your head and your heart need to be in, you know, for listeners, if you imagine being at the bottom of the stairs and saying, how am I gonna get to the top? It’s the difference between, you know, what’s at the top of the stairs and when I get to the top of the stairs, how does it feel?

Yeah. Yeah. Which is different to gain, isn’t it. And then, and yet they’re the same stairs.

Nicola: yeah, hugely, hugely. And I love, I love what you said about energy, but I also, I love what you said about just that alignment process. And [00:13:00] just so I talk to clients a lot about when they’re thinking about goals, the brain doesn’t, so I’m a neuroscience geek.

So a lot of what I teach coach is based on neuroscience. So the brain, how the brain’s designed to work. So when the, when you’re setting the brain up for a goal, the brain doesn’t want the goal. It doesn’t want the thing. The brain wants a feeling. And that’s, that’s like rocket fuel to your goals. And that starts off a process called the particular activating system.

And that’s when your goal must become supercharged. And then your brain starts to pick for all the millions, 10, 11 million bits of information you receive every day. And. Oh, that that’s relevant or actually that could lead us somewhere. And all the things that you hadn’t thought about, you start to join up the dots and it happens quite organically.

And it feels like it’s that similar thing with a, you are almost setting, setting the energy and the feeling that you want from the conversation. So you carry that into it. Anyway. Is that kind of the framework that you were talking

Wendy: about? Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think it, it’s not just limited to what [00:14:00] you do and what I do.

It’s limited to everything that we do at every yeah. Point in, in, through our day in our life, you know, it it’s, it’s what opens our minds. It’s what opens our learning. It’s what, it’s how we grow. Yeah. Needless to say that the more that you know about it. The or the more that you do it naturally, the less you worry about the, how to do it because you, you, you trust, and this is the other thing you’ve got to trust yourself to do it and not to overthink it.

And that’s, that’s half of the battle because we are told that we need to be a in, in a certain situation, we need to act in a certain way. So. Your energy is, is kind of if, if your energy is sort of from here to here and you are taking this much energy to look at what you’re supposed to be doing over there and how you’re supposed to be acting, then you’ve got less energy to actually com be present in what it is that you want to do.

Nicola: Yeah, [00:15:00] absolutely. So if, if a woman’s going into a big meeting or a big con a important conversation, and they’re not feeling heard, oh, they’ve got a, they feel like they’re senses that they haven’t been heard in that same forum before. What can they do to kind of step into that energy?

Wendy: Breathe, just take a few big deep breaths and feel your lungs open up and feel, you know, and, and change your posture.

Yeah. I, I always say, you know, we’re, we’re a bit like the scales and, and we’ve got emotions and we’ve got logic sitting either side. Yeah. Now into fact from the top of our head to, to the, both of our feet, that’s the rod that holds the scales. Yeah. So if you breathe. Then, actually what you’re doing is you are centering yourself for those scales, not to be swinging around so wildly.

Yeah. So you’re

Nicola: kind of grounding yourself back just to bring yourself back. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. And then if they go into the meeting [00:16:00] and they’ve got that moment to say the thing that they wanted to say, but they’re, they feel like they’re almost that moment’s nearly pass. How can they just own that moment?

And. Rather than kind of letting it pass, maybe beating themselves up afterwards. Go well. And ah, I didn’t say the thing. I wanted

Wendy: practice a few quick inserts of, of conversations. So it could be yeah. Before we move on. Nice. Yeah.

Nicola: Do you almost bring in the conversation back to where yeah. Love that. Um, are there any other ones,

Wendy: one more thing I’d like to add.

So it’s about bringing it back, you know, around whatever that that topic was. And if you going into a meeting, you should really have that agenda. And really the agenda should be the purpose of, of, you know, what’s, what’s coming out of that. Yeah. So make sure that you’ve C that it has been covered off. So you, you can [00:17:00] go well, um, when X spoke about, I wanted to point out that.

This wasn’t

Nicola: nice mentioned. Yeah. Or there’s a different way of looking at it, or I know that, you know, from the numbers, this, this is

Wendy: relevant. Yeah. Yeah. And it, and it’s if, if you know it and it’s, and it’s authoritative and it’s backed up evidentially and you’ve got the proof for it. Do you know what that’ll come out in?

What it is that you’re saying that you know what you’re talking about? Yeah.

Nicola: Absolutely. Absolutely. So then if they’ve said that thing in the moment, but then they feel like it’s potentially they’re being talked over, cuz that happens again quite a lot to the women that I work with. How can they keep coming back to that?

So they’ve got that point in, but actually it moves on quite quickly from there. How can they just bring it? Actually, this is really important.

Wendy: I would just say, can you, can you please [00:18:00] satisfy me that we’ve covered this point? I’m not clear. I’m unclear about the response to, and if, if, if it’s a great company and they’ve got meetings going on, are they taking minutes?

Yeah. You know, so if they’re taking minutes go, can I just point out for the minutes? So actually you’re not pointing it at anybody personally within the room. You’re just pointing out for the minutes that a certain point has not been addressed fully. Yeah. Can we, can we bring that back into the conversation now?

Or can we please make sure that that goes onto the next meeting’s agenda?

Nicola: Yeah. So then you are not, um, You’re not, that’s not leveled at anyone. It’s almost impersonal as it’s like, get back to the purpose of, this is what we’re here to talk about.

Wendy: Yes. It’s not, you are not letting me speak. This is I’m going to be heard and it’s going to be [00:19:00] noted and it’s going to be read.

And if there’s a, if there’s a boss higher up than that level, that’s going to be reading those meetings down is gonna start to notice that you are actually highlighting. holes in what is going on within their organization. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that actually builds on the, the, the evidence base that you can actually then go to your manager or the boss and say, look in this document, in this document, in this document, it’s still not being closed off.

Yeah. There’s still not clarity. And then at that point offer to lead a meeting. Yeah, step be the leader. Step up. Say, I love that. I’m quite happy to, to, to, to invite everybody to a meeting where we make sure that these points are covered. Yeah. And then you are at the front of the room and you are in charge.

And if there, if there are no satisfactory answers, then. Mm, [00:20:00] you need to get some new people in the, in the team I reckon.

Nicola: Yeah. Yeah, no. Great. I love those. I love the bringing it back. I love the yeah. Taking control. I’ve I’ve been reading. I dunno if you’ve heard this book, but I’ve been reading or listening to, I’m not very at reading books.

Anymore. That sounds wrong. I prefer to listen. just busy life. I find it though. I love my

Wendy: bookshelves and I love, I love having books. This is why we love podcasts. Isn’t it? Because it, yes, exactly. It’s

Nicola: easy. Yeah. I love someone in my ear chatting away to me. Yeah. So the, I it’s reading, listening to a book called the authority gap.

And it’s all about women’s relationship with why they’re maybe not the top as much and how, how the journey’s different for men versus women. And part of what came out through research. And there’s a lot of research like this, the, the references in this book of vast, it’s just, it’s huge, but it’s, it’s brings together a lot of what I work with organizations on, but with, in a very figure led and very analytical way, which is great.

And part of [00:21:00] what she was talking about. For women in meetings when they’re talked over or when they don’t feel heard, if something around the pitch of their tone, isn’t heard in the same way as men and actually a lower register naturally has more impact than a higher register. There was the example of Margaret and it really fascinated me.

Cause then there was the example of Margaret FFA and I know she’s got a very distinctive voice, but actually she trained with a voice coach to bring her voice down a few

Wendy: OC days. She had very strong accent from where she was from. So she had to anglicize

Nicola: herself. Yeah. Yeah. So she went for a huge process of change, but do you, does that ring true?

That it’s almost for us to kind of own our voices more. Not that we have to change ’em but just be conscious of that. The difference in tone or a difference in pitch. I, I, when I get excited, I’m very high pitched. Yes. And my partner sometimes, or when I’m crying, my partner’s like, no one can hear you, Nick.

Like, it’s just, the dogs can hear you. Like, literally [00:22:00] know I can’t. I have no idea what you’re saying.

Wendy: Like, yeah. You just called the neighborhood dogs round for treat, put dogs around. He’ll treat. Yeah. I’ll give

Nicola: you a hug cause I love you. But I. Can’t understand. Yes. So when you can breathe again, tell me um, I,

Wendy: I think you’re right though, Danny, because, um, there is, there is a few things that you’ve brought up there.

I mean, women generally look, we’re in a traditional society where women are expected to look after the children, you know, but not all women choose to have children now. And I, I understand that mm-hmm and there’s a little bit, you know, I’m, I’m, uh, guilty of putting my own. Career on hold to be a mom, but that was my choice.

It wasn’t because it was enforced on me. I chose that, you know, I preferred my husband to my job at the time. You know, might not be quite the same now, but, you know, um, but then the children are older, you know? I mean, I’ve got an, an adult daughter and, uh, and a teenage daughter. So, you know, you. A certain amount of [00:23:00] freedom back, but also what being a mom teaches you is actually, if you are going to be trying to influence someone to do your bidding or your will yeah.

As a mom, right. You soon learn, or you should soon learn that actually going LA LA LA LA LA LA LA, nobody listens. Yeah. So we as parents need to be teachers. So we need to say, you need to do this because. Here’s what’s what could happen rather than don’t do that. Why? Cuz I said so. Yeah. And I think there’s a certain element of that culture from our upbringing that carries over because everything bleeds yeah.

Into our business life. Yeah. So when we’re frustrated, like you’ve said, [00:24:00] the register goes up when we’re excited, the register goes up. And it’s about being able to capture their attention before you let that emotion loose because ultimately, yeah, the only way you’re really gonna connect with everybody, why we love audio books, why we love podcasting is because we can hear and there’s that true connection.

And we believe it. Absolutely. So when you’re saying it and you are believing it, you there’s room for you to get all excited and all of

Nicola: all later , but I, I think, yeah, I think it’s almost, it’s interesting though. Cause in my, in my corporate world, I dunno if you ever like this. When I was, when I was passionate, I was told that I was over emotional and when I was passionate, I was incredibly assertive and I was told like, your assertiveness is almost borderline aggressive and it’s like, I just want it done.

Bossy, just get it done. Like why, why is that person in capable of doing the one thing I need them to, can I have someone [00:25:00] else yeah. And then it’s, you know, it’s almost that this is how, you know, this is how woman should be and behave and, and show up. And this is what we expect, but actually this is outside of that.

We’re not sure that we like that.

Wendy: Well, no, that that’s what we’re. We are copying from our Mars counterparts. Isn’t it is that they would go, well, they’re useless. Let’s get me somebody else. Yeah. And actually coming from a woman, it doesn’t doesn’t feel. Right because we are the maternal, we’re the nurturers, we’re the farmers, you know, we’re not the hunter gatherers naturally.

Yeah. So, you know, women have to be even more attuned in their emotional intelligence when it comes to communicating. When it, you know, It having a teenage daughter now, you know, there’s all sorts. Can you remember being a teenage yourself? Nicola? It was very

Nicola: traumatic, incredibly traumatic. hideous time.

Wendy: you know, girls are awful, aren’t they? And you know, there’s, there’s, there’s a, there’s a girl that’s [00:26:00] been, uh, bullying my daughter and, and I saw a picture of her and she’s, you know, what you would call. Um, chocolate box model type. I don’t like to stereotype, but, but from a picture you just instantly think to yourself, why do you have to lower yourself to these sorts of bullish tactics when clearly charm would work?

Yeah. So it’s about being appropriate and, and yeah, and, you know, lean into lean into the strengths and weaknesses of your personality. Yeah, wherever you can. So if you don’t understand your personality or your, you know, your disc profile or your Gallup strengths or whatever you, wherever you wanna come from, because that will give you a different vantage point.

And to, to, to, to keep readdressing those areas because the, the, the changes that happen to us as, as women, you know, getting married, having children, moving house, starting [00:27:00] our own business, all of these chapters add another layer of personality to us. Mm-hmm and, and, and learning. And. An an influence of experience.

That means that we cha you know, we don’t stay the same as we were when we were 16 and, and just left school.

Nicola: No, absolutely, absolutely. But I love what you said about that, that connecting to your energy and your purpose that then flows through in how you are, how you’re speaking. So I, I know for me, or if you imagine, imagine the great orators of, of our.

When they’re in that flow and they’re in that passion and they’re grounded have it’s like this grounded excitement. It’s almost like, I dunno. I feel like I’ve almost like fizzy hearted goose bumpy. Oh my gosh. But if it’s still grounded, it kind of lifts me for more. It’s very energizing. If I’m not grounded, I’m kind of.

Feather, like flipping around everywhere. It’s that difference? Isn’t it almost. [00:28:00] And I think the other part of that when you’re going into those meeting, those big powerful conversations, that’s almost contagious for other people. That sense of this is this is someone who’s an expert or this is, oh gosh, they really know what they’re talking about.

Or they’re just, they’re so confident. And they kind of buy in almost buying into that because, because you feel. Yeah. And, and so kind of like an energy matching,

Wendy: I would, I would say, and it’s not to be confused because you know, it, you can have the best speaker. Um, you know, I can only sort of liken it to ed sheering on stage, you know, once he’s on stage and he’s doing his thing, he’s amazing.

And you can’t take your eyes off and, you know, you wanna listen to every single note and yeah. Oh, I didn’t hear that before. Yet before he goes on, you know,

Nicola: he’s,

Wendy: he’s, you know, his hands are going, his legs are going his [00:29:00] stomach’s probably, he’s probably retching, you know, and, and that nerves and, and that, and those nerves.

Yes. It’s fear, but it’s actually a good thing. Yeah. Because it shows that he cares. So I think sometimes we, our emotions trick us. Mm that we say, oh, well, I couldn’t see my, I couldn’t see myself doing that because it makes me feel bad. Yeah. Or does it make you feel bad? Is it going to be bad, but how good would you feel once you’ve done it?

Yeah. Yeah.

Nicola: This is what, this is what I recall. And this came up when I was doing my coaching qualification. We use this quite a lot, but scare sighting. You know, when something’s scary, exciting, like, you’re like, oh my God,

Wendy: I call it. But you I’m

Nicola: what you call it. I think everyone’s got, but you’ve got sweaty palms.

You ha you know, your head’s a bit busy, so yeah. Mine’s, um, nerve sight, um, scare sight.

Wendy: scare excited like that. yours [00:30:00] is nerve.

Nicola: Oh, gosh. Yeah, but it physi again, if you go back to the body physiologically, they’re, they’re the same fear, fear, and excitement is shows up in the same way physically. So it’s just what you.

What you choose to name it? I, I did say that to a client once though. And she was about to do a big presentation in front of the entire company. She’s like, Nope, just scared. OK. Fair enough. But you know, trying to help

Wendy: well is, I mean, going back to what you are, you are into, I mean, I’ve got here just crashing and you know, I’ve got, got all sorts of little visual probes.

What would happen if you did. Make the change. What would happen if you didn’t make the change? What wouldn’t happen if you did make the change? Oh, I love those. And what wouldn’t happen if you didn’t make the change, you know? So there’s, there’s only sort of four outcomes, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And look, if you’re gonna try anything and if you’re going to put your mind to doing [00:31:00] something the way that I sort of rationalize it, There are excuses and there are mistakes.

You can excuse yourself from a situation. And then what if you’ll never know? Yeah. Or you can do it. And it might be a mistake where actually it is a learning from that mistake. So you flip that negative into something positive to, to be able to handle it better next time, because look, you know, we’re all, we’re all born.

Immobile and we learn to crawl. Yeah. We learn to walk and it takes time. So a lot of these things, we live in a society where we expect perfection straight to weigh. And if I don’t do it first, you know, right on the first time we’re gonna give up. Oh, we’d, we’d all be just lying around on the floor, flipping our arms and legs.

We, that was the case.

Nicola: absolutely. And I think you can learn that and refine. If I think of women that I work with now, you know, they’re 15, 20 years into their career and right at [00:32:00] the top of their game, but that’s, that’s a process of refinement. That’s been an evolution that’s been, you know, going into a board meeting and just, just absolutely owning the room that, that doesn’t just happen like the first time.

No. And, um, the way a client described it. So this client was. Already in a really senior role, but she’d been wanting to become part of the exec board for a long time. And it had been promised, but there was never a date and a time. And then suddenly it started to happen. Um, and she was invited to join the board and there was, um, you know, changing the roles in her team to allow to step up and the way that she described it was.

Over, not initially, but over a couple of months, she, it was a jacket that she put on and it’s, it went from feeling a bit unfamiliar and might like, it might be a bit too big or not quite fit her to it being this perfect jacket that fitted her. Absolutely. That she felt great in the, and just that analogy for her was so.

Helpful for, I own this role now. Yeah. I’m a few months in, but actually, because it had [00:33:00] taken some time to, for it to happen. I used the new shoes. Yeah. I, she was always ready. It was just the, you know, the tweaks and the slight, you know, slight little nuances and, and allowing herself, setting up a team to give herself the freedom to do it and step into it

Wendy: completely.

How best do we learn is by doing, you know, you don’t learn to drive a car. in the classroom. Yeah. You have to get in it and, and hope that you Don curb it or run anybody down because you’ve hit the wrong pedal yeah. You know? Yeah. Same, same

Nicola: analogy. Absolutely. Absolutely. So for women, for women at the moment, that feeling like they they’re about to go into.

They’ve got something in mind. That’s a powerful conversation that they need to have. So obviously the things we’ve talked about are brilliantly helpful around that alignment, energy, that clarity in the authority gap. They also talk about the fact that actually for women it’s it’s. The amount of prep that I do is almost like, becomes like a, another step up in [00:34:00] confidence that whatever you ask me, I’m probably gonna know.

Is there anything else to set yourself up for like a powerful conversation where you want to make a real impact or you want to, you know, really drive a change or almost that I know, I know what I need to get from this conversation.

Wendy: Practice in the. Mm, it might sound like, and, and it is, it’s a really weird thing.

It’s a bit like when you listen back to your own voice. Yeah. Or, you know, when you’re doing can do that

Nicola: with coaching course back to you

Wendy: and you go in, oh, do I really sound like that? You know, but it’s not, it’s not how you sound necessarily. It’s sometimes it’s about what you say. So if you can practice in front of a mirror, And remember this, that if you are not smiling, the mirror can’t smile back.

So if you want to put, um, a feeling out into the rule, into the room, right, you have to shine in that feeling. So practice in front of the mirror. And by saying it out loud actually starts [00:35:00] to cement it. So that it becomes a second skin, if you like. Yeah. Um, and, and then, you know, just get the dog and the cat and you know, the kids, you know, together and, and, and deliver it and have a bit of fun with it.

You know, remember that there’s no, there’s no right and wrong, you know, you’re going to do your best on the day.

Nicola: I love that as a great framework for, and I think again, women can be so self Crile can’t they come out. And I remember I used to come out meetings, one particular one, I’d just been given a budget of 10 million, which is what I went in to get.

And I got it. And I came out and my boss, like, are you happy? And I’m like, well, I didn’t say this. Or I didn’t say that. It’s like, you’ve literal what you got, what you wanted, you wanted. Yeah. And what we wanted. Can you not. Yeah. Can you not for

Wendy: a moment. yeah, but, but you see, this is, this is the difference.

So acknowledge be aware of yourself because as a leader you’ll want [00:36:00] what, what the next thing is, but already, you know what the next 10 things are. Mm. So by achieving one thing, we don’t always acknowledge that achievement. Yeah. Yeah, because there are so many more stacked up behind it, you know, it’s like the, the flag in the summit and you get there and go, oh look, there’s another one over there.

And it’s a bit taller. Yeah. You just put in flags and flags and flags down. So, you know, sometimes it’s about reminding yourself of the smaller wins.

Nicola: Mm, definitely. Definitely. And I, again, if I think of the clients that I work with, it’s almost at times, or it can become, I’m so busy looking forward, I’m not looking out and around at what I’ve got.

So it’s almost like, um, sometimes their gratitude can feel initially quite low or almost just that lack of awareness of. Look at the life that you already have. If you, if we can help you step [00:37:00] into that feeling of gratitude, it’s only, you’re only gonna grow and become more from there. But actually if you’re not in my mind, if you’re not great for what you already have, why should you have more?

Because you’re not truly a deeply, you’re not looking actually your life is already pretty

Wendy: fabulous. Well, you’re not actually looking after what you’ve got already. No,

Nicola: it’s always, you are almost so busy looking forward. You’re not looking out and around at what you have, what you’ve done and what you’ve created.

Because. Alright right. Next role. Right next promotion. It’s like, well, that’s great. But that’s, that’s living in the, when, not this it’s, it’s what I call like the IRB happy when syndrome, rather than it’s now life is now like, yes, it’s not when life doesn’t happen. When, so Wendy it’s, I feel we could chat all day about this and it’s been such great stuff, but it’s a final message that we can leave with.

Um, our audience today. Just about this idea of the powerful conversation and stepping into that energy and just, yeah, just

Wendy: owning it. I would just say, just believe in yourself. If you [00:38:00] can’t believe in yourself, then how can you expect anybody else to believe what you’re saying? Yeah. So, so once you’ve got that, have the openness of spirit, I would say spirit to, to just see where that will take you in your conversations.

Yeah. Just notice, just stop and notice. Mm.

Nicola: I love that. I love that. And it’s been really interesting for me and my journey as a coach that I I’ve always talked a lot, but actually coaching. A lot more listening, leading into the speaking. And that’s been a real shift for me. So yeah, that, that purposely intentionally listened rather than what your, almost what, where my mind thinks it’s gonna go let it go.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So we always finish with a couple of questions. Oh gosh. What, what did I say? No, no, no, it’s fine. I have you prepared few quick fire questions. No, it’s. Yeah, [00:39:00] but this one I think is really relevant to you. So what is so on your podcast, obviously you talk about, um, a powerful conversation that’s changed your life.

So what is, what is that powerful conversation for you?

Wendy: Uh, well, it’s really what started the, my podcast was. That I answered a cold call and that cold core invited me to take, to, to, to do some research for, uh, AXA UK, because I was one of their customers. And then I was invited to become their poster girl for professional indemnity, which of course I have to take because I’m also a coach and I get an advise people and it, it took.

Hmm, that was 2019. And it took about 18 months of that percolating with everybody going, oh, you are really good at audio and you should do a podcast. And it’s like, what, what would I talk about? And actually that reinvigorated my own. Love of my career because I’d got people coming back going. Oh, saw you saw you, you were on the billboards for AXA.

Oh, saw you, you [00:40:00] came up on, um, remarketing on Facebook ads and stuff like this. Your face kept coming up. And of course I, I wrote a couple of articles for AXA. I started to talk about it and. , it was kind of, um, I’d forgotten what my superpower was if you like. Yeah. Um, and sometimes you just need to be reminded and I just thought that’s great because if that hadn’t have happened, I wouldn’t have been.

Uh, reigniting my flame, if you like, and my fire wouldn’t be lit again in, in, in my business. I bet other people have got those conversations too. I bet it’s happened to them. And that was when I went now I know what I can be asking people and what I can be talking to

Nicola: people about. Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that.

Uh, yeah. I’m excited to share mine one day. Yeah. Is there a box set that you’ve loved recently? What is this spill? Spill the

Wendy: beans. Do you know, this, this is so, so recent and relevant, but it’s, it’s the split what’s that? I’ve not heard [00:41:00] that it’s a BBC one drama we’re on season three. I mean, apart from madams secretary who I love to Louie.

Um, so. It’s um, it’s a family of female solicitors, so it is the, the matriarch and three artists and they are in law divorce law, and it’s, it’s the complicated relationships that go on. Um, and I quite like it cause we’ve touched on it already, is that you. High powered women with families. Yeah. You know, trying to juggle it all and to be seen as equal.

Nicola: Nice. I love the sound that I’m gonna have to go and have a look at that. Is there a leader that’s inspired you?

Wendy: There are a lot of people that have inspired me, but I have to say that. There was actually a book I read that changed my whole attitude towards, [00:42:00] uh, a certain aspect of business, which was writing copy.

Um, and that’s Marcus Sheridan with his book. They ask you answer. Ooh. I like to sad that mm he’s.

Nicola: On my show. Oh, there you go. Fabulous. Yeah.

Wendy: it was real fun. Gilbert

Nicola: were you

Wendy: giggling and just, oh welcome. I was very professional. Did, were you? Yeah, I was very professional. I went until we stopped recording then went, oh my God.

That was amazing. You know, I kind of melted then. Yeah, no, no.

Nicola: Um, finally, what does find your fire mean to you? Cuz you already mentioned it a little bit. So obviously that’s what I focus on. That’s what I talk about

Wendy: most. Yeah. I mean, finding your fire. I mean, honestly, it’s what does it mean to me? It, it means keeping it lit.

Mm. Definitely, you know, we’ve all got this fire in our belly for something dreams, desires, goals, aspirations, call them what you want. Imagine if you could really [00:43:00] have it, how bright that would be. Yeah. Not just for you, but for everybody around you.

Nicola: I love that. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that’s the thing, isn’t it?

When it burns up bright, it just shines a light for other people. Yeah. Hugely. And where can our audience find out more about you in the work that you

Wendy: do? I would say I hang out on LinkedIn. Yeah. But if you just type into Google making conversations count, you’ll find me wherever you want to. Brilliant.

Nicola: I love it.

I love it. We’ll we’ll add the details on the show notes anyway, so people can find you and you know, if they want to friendly stalk you. So

Wendy: stalkers are welcome, but I would always encourage you to just pick up the phone or send me a DMM or something. I’m

Nicola: always happy conversation. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for your time today.

I think that was a bit of a different subject and I loved it. So yeah. Thank you so much. And that’s it for today. Everyone. We’d love to know what you think. If you’ve got any comments or feedback on the, um, podcast, uh, today’s episode, please just drop me a message, all the details in the show [00:44:00] notes, and you can now leave us a voice message on our SpeakPipe, which is very exciting.

So,

Wendy: and don’t forget to leave a review because that means that everybody else will get to know what a great show nickel is doing. Absolutely. Thank

Nicola: you. right. See you next time, everyone. Goodbye.

if what I took about really resonates with you and you love what I have to say, and you have moments and flashes of inspiration from the podcast. I would invite you to get in touch, to find out how I can help you. So individually, that can be through my coaching focus program or my V I P program, depending on how you like to learn and what will suit you, or I can help you in your organization to really help the women that you work with across your organization at all different levels.

And at that very senior level to really feel empowered and to know that they can reach the very, the most senior levels in that [00:45:00] organization and to give them the confide. In who they are and the clarity and what they want to be able to get there. And we do that through workshops. We do that through leadership programs, and we can do that through consulting work.

If you are looking for help with any of that, drop me an email Nicola Nicola score, code.com. The spellings are the easiest. So all the details are the show notes results I get for clients. Clients have been promoted twice in the six months we’ve worked together. They’ve been invited to join the board.

They’ve gone from redundancy to being offered three dream. They’ve gone from being pushed out of an organization to going into a bigger organization in a bigger role with a bigger pay rise and just a quote from a client that I particularly love. I’ve gone from the pit of despair. When I started working with Nick to just being really happy and she is an incredibly empowered leader.

Now, if you’re not quite ready for that, you can download my overwhelm on fire guide the details that are in the show notes, but that really helps you every day to stay in your fire. So it helps you to clear your head. It helps you to come back to what’s important to [00:46:00] you, and it helps you to have that most impact and influence every single day.

Uh, it’s a little crib sheet that you can just go through and tick things. So go and download that. Or you can subscribe to my newsletter, which comes out every Friday, which is a Roundup of the week. Really. So what’s going on in my world. What’s the blog for that week, a quick video, that’s gonna help your particular subject.

And it’s all about helping female leaders to find their fire and also stats and, and any research from the industry as well. And things that I’m reading that I really. And recommendations that we’re making. So go and subscribe to that. And finally, for the podcast, if you haven’t done so already, I would love you to go and leave us a review and subscribe so that you never miss an episode and you are always gonna have them when they’re released and doing that as well.

Not only helps you, but it also means that we’re gonna reach more women and we’re gonna be able to start that revolution to helping female leaders to keep that fire. Find their fire and keep it. So keep that passion, that [00:47:00] purpose, that excitement. So if you haven’t done that already, please go and do that.

Thank you.