Hello, and welcome to Women at the top of telco and tech. I am your host, I am Nicholas gorko. And I am the coach working with organisations to help more women get to those very senior roles to create more safe and fair cultures and a more inclusive environment for if you’re eagle eyed, you might have noticed a change on my LinkedIn, just around my profile. And I’ll talk about this in a separate episode. But I think over the last few months, it felt like my message has got bigger felt like my impact that I want to have on the world has got bigger. And as a result, always find LinkedIn, the headline and the about is somewhere to try things on and see how they feel. So my work is still currently focused on working with women. But off the back of that also supporting organisations to really create safe and fair, inclusive cultures. But as part of that have more women in senior roles to represent that, but also to drive through much needed change to be the voices of what needs to change, and then have that resilience to drive it through. For me, it’s it’s just my message has grown bigger. So I’m going to talk about that in a separate episode. But welcome to today’s episode, if you are a new listener, a huge welcome. And I’m really excited that you found us. If you’re an ongoing listener, welcome back. And if you haven’t, what I would love for you to do is just to either follow or share or review the podcasts and wherever you’re listening it to, because that helps us to reach more women and more people that this is relevant to. So it’s just going to help grow that audience and help drive a real wave of change across the corporate world. So if you could go and do that, I would really, really appreciate it. So today, I’m going to be talking about something that I think is really, really important. I also ran a recent LinkedIn poll just to ask what my audience would like to focus on and hear about on the podcast. And this came up as the second most voted for topics. So obviously something really important. But today, I’m going to be talking about five signs of what a toxic workplace actually looks like. And then what to do about it. So how to recognise those signs, and then what to do about it as a leader. And I think this, this, for me is a huge, huge subject. And it’s so important because I think the corporate world is going through a time of real pressure at the moment. And organisations that I work with. I know I shared that last year, I lost nearly 100 K’s worth of work through an organisation that was going through a massive change. So there were headcount freezes, there was budget restrictions. So it was just a really difficult environment for the women that I had been working with. And the programme that I put in place, my final fire programme was there, obviously to give them support. So just knowing that actually that support then wasn’t available, because obviously budget restrictions, it was only down to raising purchase orders for anything that was absolutely business essential business critical. In the corporate world. At the moment, we’re in a period of obviously gone through the planning phase for 2023. We’ve set budgets, we’ve set goals as leaders, we’ve set a clear strategy, but there’s also cost of living crisis going on in the world. We are in a recession in the UK. And like I said, many businesses are going through mergers and acquisitions to get through that. But many businesses also just really honing in on profitability. So looking at costs, reducing costs, but also where can I increase profits. So as a result of that, many companies are looking at restructuring reorganising that might end up in redundancies. And again, I know of a few organisations going through that at the moment. And then also those headcount freezes. So your aspirations are quite limited when there’s just literally nowhere to move. And then also budget restrictions. So the things that you really want to do, it might be that you can’t do them right now, corporate world is not an easy place to be right now. And there’s always those annoyances and frustrations and just a setup of some organisations that really don’t help us an employee that can become quite irritating when there’s a really involved sign off process, when there’s a lot of bureaucracy, when you really have to prove and demonstrate through numbers rather than just being able to just experiment and try something. And all of those are in place for a reason. But as an employee, and as a leader, sometimes those can feel really frustrating. So what I really wanted to start with today is getting really clear on what is difference between a toxic organisation and just a corporate that’s going through a period of change or an organisation where it’s just it’s the normal standard things that happen in a larger corporate organisation. So a lot of what I’m going to talk about today came from In a report and a huge amount of research put together by Donald and Charles Soule, su WL, and an article that was in the MIT Sloan Management Review that I’ll put a link to, and they were then on Bernie Browns podcast, and the brilliant thing about the research that they did, so they took a huge number of Glassdoor reviews on organisations. And in those Glassdoor reviews, employees might be criticising corporate cultures for hundreds of different flaws. For example, being risk averse, having too much bureaucracy, not having not feeling inclusive, maybe feeling impersonal, getting what they want you to get to the heart of is, rather than just employees grumbling about things at work, and actually, they’re just things to live with, and just a framework to work within. When does it become so damaging that they qualify as toxic? So you might gripe about it being old school about being male, Poundstone your organisation or bureaucratic? But is that enough to for you, on a Sunday evening to have that dread of going into work? Is it enough for you to actually just want to not be in that organisation at all? Or is it something that you can work within so distinguished in a culture that’s awful, that is toxic, versus just the irritation that comes with corporate world sometimes, but obviously, on the flip side, there’s all the benefits. And toxic culture as reported in this article was the single biggest predictor of attrition during the first six months of the great resignation. So early last year, when we were starting to see those real spikes in employees leaving organisations for how they’ve been treated through lockdown through having that time to think what they actually wanted from their life. And people reflecting it meant that there was a huge, huge increase in terms of number of people’s resigning, it was the single biggest predictor of attrition during the first six months of the great explanation 10 times more powerful than how employees view their compensation in predicting employee turnover. So let’s just say that again, so a toxic culture was 10 times more powerful as the root of employee attrition than compensation. So more than what someone’s being paid more than what they actually take home. This is 10 times more powerful, which for me is absolutely huge. So if you follow that through, it’s been estimated that employee turnover triggered by a toxic culture could be costing us employees where this survey took place, nearly 50 billion per year before the great resignation even began. So this is absolutely huge. But what I want to get to today is just specifics for you five things to look for, to recognise that the culture that you’re in isn’t one of the actually this is a frustrating place to be actually don’t always feel heard to actually this is so impactful for me and my team and those around me that it’s, it’s toxic. And I would also suggest you go and listen to the podcasts that I did, with Jen Orion that on the subtle aspects of a toxic culture. So not the hugely obvious, very powerful things, but also almost the very subtle, probably what we call micro aggressions are the small things that keep happening that is reflective, that it’s a toxic culture, all these reviews were done. So this huge amount of research through studying more than 1.3 million Glassdoor reviews from us employees of culture 500 companies across 40 different industries. So this is a huge amount, huge amount of data. And Charles and Donald focusing on topics at best predicts a company’s overall culture. And what they really then look to measure were the more negative elements. So really identifying and grouping which topics each employee discussed negatively. And that was measuring 128 topics in total. And then from there, identifying the five that had the largest negative impacts on how employees rated corporate culture. So there’s just a huge amount that’s gone into this. If you’re a geek like me, you’ll enjoy reading how the research is put together and how it’s organised. So these were nicknamed the toxic five. And yes, organisations and culture can disappoint employees in many ways, but these five are identified as having, by far the largest negative impact on how employees rate their corporate culture. They were the biggest contributors to employee attrition throughout the Great resignation. So the first one being non inclusive, absolutely at the heart of what I focus on with organisations, but this had the biggest negative impact on an organization’s culture with employees viewing that organization’s culture as toxic. I was two topics that came out with this first one being cronyism, which included comments about managing managers playing favourites, someone that couldn’t do anything wrong promoting buddies promoting people that looked similar to them graduates from the same college, rather than the most qualified Add also non inclusive cultures general non inclusive cultures. So where things felt like there’s a, an old boys network where there was a clique where there was an in crowd and employees feel excluded from that, but without the specifics, sitting behind it, and also part of that in a minority group. So if you’re an ethnic minority or from a different socio economic background, or LGBTQ, for example, you are more likely to feel that you were not included, you are more likely to vote that actually, it’s more important to you even though it’s important to everyone, because that’s your lived experience. That sense of non inclusive cultures of favouritism of clunkiness of the in crowd, who you going for lunch with who do we promoting that looks like everyone else. But then also for those minority groups just not feeling included, not feeling supported, not feeling heard not having their voice heard. So non inclusive, is our first one, which is huge, and obviously at the heart of what I do, and just action, what action can you take on that, just take some time to understand the experience of the people around you from diverse backgrounds, take some time to understand how it is for them, as an employee, take some time to listen to, what their challenges are, what they enjoy doing in the experience and what their challenges are, and how can you support them with that, and actually, is the need for a group or network to support that particular programme or that particular group of people. So really think about everyone is an individual, their lived experience, are they in a minority, if so, just making sure that they feel included they feel part of the team and also be mindful of that favouritism be mindful of that natural tendency to look for people and to work more with people that look similar, that confirmation bias. So a second one is disrespectful. So feeling disrespected work, largest negative impact on employees overall rating of their corporate culture, of anything single topic. So that could be things like feeling that they’re not heard, they’re not listened to. They’re not supported, they’re not appreciated. their talents are just kind of not as respected in the workplace. And again, this comes back to what can you do about this? What action can you take? It’s just being mindful of different people at different levels and the experience that they bring? How do you help them to feel safe to speak up? How do you help them to feel that there’s a culture that is fair, irrelevant of what minority group, they might be part of it? So how do we make it fair? How do we understand different skill sets of different people? How do we support people that might be neurodiverse, for example. So again, it’s really just understanding your team as individuals, and just really leading by example of just being able to create that very safe culture where it’s okay to speak up, it’s okay to question it’s okay to challenge and also you as a leader, really representing the voice of people that might not just be the ones that perform really well in big meetings, they might be the ones that go away, reflect and then have a brilliant idea. And we also we need all sets of those people. So as leaders, it’s not just the people are in the meetings that can just really, in the moment perform incredibly well or people under pressure. It’s also we need that mix people that are the careful the reflectors, the ones who take action on the back of data and like to analyse, so it’s just respecting those different skill sets and those different abilities as well recognising them and just sharing it with that person. So they they have a sense that you are there to support them, you are responsible for them, you are going to say great things about them when they’re not in the room. Number three is unethical captures captures general comments about integrity and ethics within all organisation. And the most common terms in under this topic. Were around ethics, integrity, unethical, shady, cheating. And then also on a related topic, dishonesty, terms use error around things like making false promises, as well as sugarcoating or smoking mirrors or not being honest or closed or conversations. I think there’s two parts to this. It’s almost it’s the the role of the leader at the top to set the culture of the organisation is the role of the people at the very top to decide what you want the culture to be. And then making sure that you’re role modelling it but also knowing across business, that the way you do business is ethical the way that you do business has a good impact on society. And we think about the younger generations coming through now. For those younger generations. It’s real, it’s really huge focus to be part of an organisation that is ethical. It’s a very big decision point on whether that’s an organisation that has a good positive impact on the world. Whether they’re making change for the better, and they’re not just a corporate that’s out to just make you huge profits, but that actually an organisation wants to have a positive impact on the world. And actually, for that many of them, it’s more important to have that sense of a strong and good purpose and have ethics over just purely over their salary, what to do about unethical and how to kind of represent being ethical. So as a leader, being clear on sharing what you can share when you can share it. So for example, a client I’m working with at the moment, her organisation is going through a huge amount of change of restructure reorganisation, so she’s she’s not privy to all of that conversation to spite being the most senior there are some closed door conversations. But what she’s very clear on with her team is when she can next update them, what she’s very clear on with her team is what she’s allowed to say and when she’s allowed to say it. And also being a little bit vulnerable for her sharing a little bit of how she’s feeling. Now, she might be a little bit worried. So there’s a sense of, again, it’s safe to voice, I’m not feeling particularly safe, right now, it’s safe to voice, I don’t know what’s going on, it’s safe to share a little bit as a leader that actually being vulnerable. I don’t know everything right now. But you will know when I know, I will share what I can as soon as I can. So just have that trust that knowing those closed door conversations need to happen. So we have the strategy, we have really structure in place, the reorganisation, and then we can go from that. Number four is cut for. So I certainly remember people that stepped over me in the corporate world to get to where they wanted to be. I remember bosses who took my ideas and ran with it, and didn’t give me any credit. I yeah, I had a real sense in some of the larger organisation of work, in that it was every person for themselves and wasn’t really a sense of teamwork, there wasn’t really a sense of being in it together. And it was also very much teammates that weren’t just working on their own thing. But they were actually they wanting to step past you. They were networking more, they were doing more, they were very focused on themselves. And they might have got further in their corporate career than me. But actually, that’s not how I wanted to show up at work. That’s not who I am. So this for me is very much around passos run of the mill frustrations with each other and into again, what culture you set and within your team, what what culture you set and within your area of the business. And also just to be aware of people that are actively undermining one another, where there isn’t that sense of team culture, where if is a little bit dog eat dog and stabbing each other in the back. And just calling out behaviour when you see it at your level as well, just being brave enough to say actually, that’s not, that’s not how I want to show up. So for me, that’s not acceptable. And if that’s how you want to work, that’s probably not someone I want to work with. So being brave enough, again, to to know that you as a leader you’re representing. So that means as a role model, you need to lead by example, and you need to call out and be brave enough to share when there’s behaviour that’s not acceptable, when it’s too much, when it’s impacting on your team around you, or someone coming new in as well really support them to understand your culture and what isn’t an isn’t acceptable. And then the final one of our toxic five is abusive. So abusive was defined as sustained hostile behaviour towards employees, rather than a boss who’s just had a bad day rather than a boss who’s just under huge pressure and just taking it on the team. It’s exception rather than the norm. But if it becomes the norm, things like bullying, things like yelling, shouting at employees belittling demeaning people verbally abusing, condescending or talking down to, and I certainly know for me in corporate world and thinking of one manager, one director in particular I worked for that came in at very senior level, three or four was reported into them. And we had a Monday and Monday, late meeting, that was a report on all our programmes. So programme update, but in between the meeting, she would never make time to review emails, she would never make time for you to sit down and share the latest updates by copying her into spite trying to book meeting. So what it meant that sometimes she was surprised when we went into that meeting about where we were or what we were struggling with. And it was just very toxic, because it would ended up in you being demeaned in front of your peers in front of other directors in front of people that actually you wanted to develop a great profile with. And that was just really hard because it was consistently every Monday, and there’ll be one of us that would be in front of a room directors and peers. And we will be talked down to and we would sometimes not shouted out directly, but there would be a very strong inference that we weren’t mismanaging or doing something wrong. And that was incredibly hard. I remember Sunday nights, I would feel quite sick going into work just because I knew one of us was probably going to get going through that really awkward position, or is it abusive? I don’t want to label that but actually it was very, very uncomfortable. And I didn’t feel the support and actually If I had been just to check in to give the update and say the three to three things I’m stuck with, I need some help pushing through. That was all that I need always was very independent. my corporate career didn’t need hand holding, but just helped me get through these challenges helped me get some time with this area of the business. So it’s going to impact on and again, what to do about this. Just really getting set that structure within your team of being very clear on what is and isn’t tolerated, what is acceptable behaviour, what is not acceptable behaviour. And also think the difference between men and women, is it okay for a man to bang his fist on the desk because he’s passionate, and he’s a go getter. Whereas if a woman is upset and crying, there’s something she cares a lot about something? Why, why are the two different think about how you’re role modelling behaviour. And if you’re having a bad day, if you’ve lashed out someone, again, know the difference between you having a bad day versus actually sustained behaviour for someone else. And I think the other big part of this is to have your your teams back and support them. The culture, you create the pocket of a culture you create within your team within your area, that’s what you’re in control of, you’re not in control, necessarily the wider culture, even though you’re an influence and a role model for it. So it’s just being very clear, and calling out a reporting behaviour, that’s not acceptable. And you as a leader being brave enough to do that. So those are the toxic five. But if we take those toxic five, when they’re really prevalent in organisation, what impact does it have? So we already talked about costing organisations up to 50 50 billion per year during the Great resignation? But what’s the what’s the impact on employees? What how does that how does that amount actually show through just to really think about the full cost of a toxic culture to individuals and organisations and building on the research that we’ve already talked about toxic environment and culture is associated with more incidents of stress. And people being signed off work with stress and needing to take a break away from work, higher levels of burnout. So again, employees needed to take time away from business and just being so exhausted that they can’t come in at the same, the same pace and into same role, or mental health issues. So people that maybe need to go and be referred on to a counsellor, or they need to go away and get some help from support from their doctor. And also that toxicity can also translate into physical illness, just when that culture is very toxic, and it’s every day and there’s that drip in tap effect, this odds of suffering a major disease increased by 20%. So from 35 to 55%, which really shocked me, so things like coronary disease, asthma, diabetes, arthritis, and these are physical ailments and pains that your employees will be more likely to suffer with and struggle with, if you have that toxic culture. So this is having a severe impact. You’ll also see higher rates of attrition, you’ll also see increased costs of bringing new people into the business increasing costs of recruitment, you’ll see a shorter tenure, you’ll see less diversity in minority groups that you want to see the opposite, you want to see an increase. Toxic culture also flows fruits directly to the organization’s bottom line, and to profitability. Because if people are taking more time off sick, because they don’t want to be in work, or they’re struggling with a mental health or struggling with their physical health, it just means that there’s more sick time. So it means that there’s going to be an increase in employee healthcare costs. So just some stats to support all of this as well. So how does it affect the bottom line, so 20% of employees have left a job because of its culture. Replacing an employee then can cost companies up to twice employee salary. So think about across the whole organisation, but also at the very top, you’re losing that knowledge, you’re losing that expertise, you losing a safe pair of hands that knows that role, and you are allowing that attrition rate to increase and also poor employer brand. And that reputation of being more of a toxic culture makes it harder to attract the best talent when we’ve already got a war on talent. So toxic culture is the strongest predictor of a negative Glassdoor review, for example, and 73% of us job seekers only will now apply to company if it aligns with their personal values. So again, it becomes a huge, huge indicator of the level of talent you’re going to be able to bring into the organisation. I think, for today, the big headline here is that those five areas of toxic culture that we talked about and your role within them. So just to remind though, mind you, of those five, so non inclusive, disrespectful, unethical, cutthroat, abusive, the high costs of the toxic culture, the impact it’s having on your employees, the impact that it’s having on your brand and your ability to attract the best talent when we’re already in a war on talent. It’s really With you, as a leader to think about and really own, own your part of the culture you want to create, and know that actually, your employees are coming to work for a positive experience, they want to know that you’re an organisation is going to have a positive impact on the world. They want to know that you are an ethical company doing things in the right way. But also they want to feel safe. And actually, hundreds of 1000s of employees might experience that culture is toxic, be mindful, again of those underrepresented minority. So women, for example, or older employees, or different socio economic backgrounds, or different skin colour. So really think about micro cultures, and those within minority groups that might be experienced in something that is very different to those in majority groups are experiencing. So really to think about supporting people across so smaller cultures. And also to be really honest about where you are, this isn’t solved in a day, this isn’t so with some workshops, this is something that is at the very heart of an organisation. And it can be traced back to people at the very top. So again, it’s taking that time to think about yes, there’s a strategy Yes, is profitability to look at, yes, as always pressures, even more so in the world at the moment. But just looking at the impact of a toxic culture, this is going to affect your bottom line, this is going to affect your employees across the whole organisation. So taking some time to define articulate, where you’re not where you want to be. And where do you want to be, is going to just be a hugely positive and profitable way of looking at your organisation. So that’s everything I wanted to talk about today. For me, I’ve worked in cultures that just I love being part of that I’m excited to be part of that I feel safe, I feel respected. I feel listened to. On the flip side of that I’ve had cultures where, like the example I gave of that Monday meeting where I just dreaded the workday I dreaded going into the office, I dreaded, what was going to happen that day. What I would love to see in the corporate wide how I want to impact the corporate world is more women leaders in those very senior positions is the creation and the curation of cultures that are more inclusive, and they are more fair to everyone and they are safe for everyone to show up as exactly who they are. So if this is something you’re looking for help with do drop me a message or if you’re someone who’s struggling with toxic culture at the moment. Again, just drop me a message about my one to one coaching and I will speak to you on the next podcast. If you have anything more to say on this. Just drop me an email. All the contact details are in the show notes and I can’t wait to hear from you. Thanks bye bye