[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Women at the Top of Telecoms and Tech, and I am your host. I am Colaco. I am. The coach that works with organizations to help them really, uh, recruit, retain, and develop women in their organizations. So at the very top end, at a board level, but also those future leaders, so they have more diverse, more inclusive organizations, but also there’s more of an appetite and a culture that.

Really promotes positive change. So I’m very excited today because I have a guest who is coming to us from the state, so she’s got very, very early. So we really, really appreciate that here. Um, and we’ve taken a little while to get our time zones together, but we’re here today and I’m very excited to welcome Dr.

Jen o’ Ryan. And today we’re gonna be talking about how to identify. And what is the impact of a toxic culture? Um, and I think this is [00:01:00] something I’ve been wanting to talk about for a little while, and then when Jen’s name popped up and we were chatting about what, what we wanted to cover and talk about today, um, this is something that I think we’re both really passionate about, but also understanding the impact on employees.

Understanding that it’s not always the big obvious things. It’s some of those smaller, I don’t, I, we didn’t like the term, we already talked about this kind of microaggressions, those more subtle things and the. Not only the people, but the culture. And then also that, that push towards diversity and inclusion.

So that’s what we’re gonna be talking about today. So I’m very, very excited. Um, I’m just gonna introduce Jen and then she will introduce herself. So Jen o’ Ryan is a consulting editor specializing in inclusion, diversity, and representation. So all the things that are really important to my heart and the work that I do.

Um, she has a PhD in human behavior and her background. Includes designing new experience for customers, launching global initiatives, and leading organizational change. Um, after an extensive career, instating change at Fortune 100 companies, [00:02:00] she created Double Tall consulting, um, to really fill a gap that many organizations have to really how to get there.

Inclusion diversity initiatives away from that, the good intentions and the the want to do it, and maybe away from that lip service to actually being really effective and having meaningful results. And outside, I like to know what people do outside of work, what makes them tick. So outside of work, Jen is a travel en enthusiast and an avid runner.

Um, I recognize that from a long time ago, but I’m a swimmer now, Jen, so I’m a, a sea swimmer, but I do recognize that, um, just, it, just that switch off. Um, and she also has an affinity. Bad eighties music. Yep. Get that completely. Um, and just getting lost in New City. So welcome to the show today, j I feel like we know a little bit already today with that, so thank you for putting that together,

Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited for this conversation. It’s just, uh, and listening to you talk about the, the complexity of the workplace and all the things that we can dive into today. I’m, I’m just, yeah. So excited to get started. Yeah, I’m, thank you for getting up [00:03:00] early to do it as well.

So, right. So let’s get started. So I wanted to. I was, um, I always like to do a bit of prep and think about what’s gonna help my audience most. So a lot of my audience of women at the top of telco and tech companies, um, and I know a lot of them have had, um, probably experiences in the past and some are in it now and some I get to work with and help them out of that.

But some of the experience, either toxic workplaces, Or what I would call toxic bosses. Um, so I listened to Brennan Brown’s podcast and she interviewed, uh, father and son, Donald and Charles Saul a little while ago. Um, and it was a really, really brilliant podcast that I shared with my, my audience and they.

Through all three data, all three huge companies. Um, they put together a article that was in m i t Sloan, which was all about the five, um, attributes, cultural attributes to a toxic culture. And these were disrespect, non-inclusive, [00:04:00] unethical, cutthroat, and abusive. And actually, when they put all this data together, they found that.

These combined together was the single biggest predictor of attrition. So after lockdown, after everything that we’ve been through, um, and these, these attributes combined also made were 10 times more powerful than how employees viewed compensation, um, as something that would drive them out of the business.

And actually when they, again, when they put it together, Thought about the impact and kind of put together what, what could impact might this be having on companies. This could actually be costing us employers up to 50 billion a year. This attrition through having these toxic workplace and toxic environments.

So I’m going straight in with some big, big numbers and understanding impact. Cause I, I certainly know my career. There’s certainly. Chapters in my work career. So I had 16 years working in corporate, in, in telco and tech companies. I have the, the golden years where I worked for someone that I thought was amazing.

It was a really [00:05:00] clear purpose, a really supportive environment. Um, I was part of something bigger than me, but I also knew what I could deliver and what impact I could have. And it’s just that really positive environment. And I’ve worked with some bosses that were so toxic and so challenging and so. Had such an impact on me that I just, I, I, even now I struggle to talk about some of those and also those toxic workplaces of someone at the top leading your team or leading your area that doesn’t understand you or doesn’t appreciate you or doesn’t respect you, and just the impact that can have or more widely across your whole organization, that lack of purpose or people stepping over each other to get to where they want to.

Not feeling part of something. So I think it can really, really hugely shape your career. So, Jen, in your experience with those five attributes, do you, do you recognize them and see them in the work that you do? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And, and as we were talking about a little bit earlier, [00:06:00] when we’re getting to know each other, it doesn’t need to rise to rise to that level necessarily of that toxicity like that over the top.

Um, you know, cutthroat is such a good word because cutthroat doesn’t need, necessarily, need to be the person who is clearly dominating. And it’s very political. It’s very ob obvious, but it’s, it’s that, that. Less nameable behaviors and those small things where you leave a meeting and you feel that something’s been done or you feel like that’s like, you’re not feeling good.

Right? Yeah. And, and it’s, it’s so, it’s so. behind the scenes that it’s difficult to really identify what it is that’s happening. Yeah. And, and that I think can, can really influence and shape and, and so much of it is just, is just understanding the difference between what is a work style Yeah. Is a, you know, this is who I am in the world versus what is actually getting to that place of being damaging to the team, the goals, the initiatives, things like that.

Yeah, I was just gonna say, I really love that differentiation because I think reflecting back on my career and what I. . [00:07:00] What I hear my clients say sometimes is words around, that’s just how they are. That’s just how this person is. That’s just, oh, it’s just them being them. And it’s like, well, at what point does that become acceptable?

That it’s, it’s beyond a work style. This is impacting other people. It’s what impact on people’s roles and people, how they’re feeling, but also on the deliverables. So can you just say more? Cause I’m really fascinated by almost that difference between a work style versus actually not acceptable. , could you just, uh, say, say more about that?

Cause I think that’s a really important point we’ve stumbled upon already. So, yeah, and it’s, it’s, it’s fascinating to me because I’ve, I’ve done the, you know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve worked for larger tech companies, I’ve worked for small but mighty startups and I’ve worked across different industries. And so yeah, as much as we do see this quite a bit in, in the tech industry, it is absolutely not unique to that.

Um, I, I see people, um, trying to really save what they see as a high perform. So it’s a, it’s somebody who generates a lot of revenue or [00:08:00] they get a lot of clients, or they are able to deliver this amazingly eloquent, complicated code and they, they really wanna keep that person. Yeah. Because there’s a benefit to the business, but at what cost?

Yeah. And, and, and even negotiate, even getting to the place of negotiating that trade off to me is a red flag. Yeah. Like we’re even having the conversation of, but they bring in so much revenue that is a lens that we should probably not be viewing. Yeah. Um, a healthy environment where humans are involved.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think, again, I’ll listen to another podcast that was Brenna, um, Simon Sinek and um, I can’t remember the other person’s name anyway, but the three of them, and they were saying again, and I think. It started being almost like a review of what’s going on in work, the world of work at the moment, after the pandemic, and kind of get into hybrid work and all those sort of things.

It ended up with that, the conversation around at what point do [00:09:00] we, or how are we labeling people that are demanding or they’re very impactful. Other people, they’re what are used to call like a mood Hoover. They have really low energy all the time and they’re, you know, really negative. But actually they.

The highest earner, or they are someone that has a very specialist bit of knowledge, or they are someone that has a huge amount of experience in that company. So actually it’s quite, it’s, it’s quite a big loss the business if they’re not there. So it’s almost the. At what point do you accept behavior versus making an allowance with someone?

And if you do that, what, what example are you then, um, giving to everyone else? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , exactly. Because there are, there are multiple different ways of being, you know, not everybody’s going to be that introvert or that extrovert or, yeah. Engage with each other the way that they, the rest of the team does.

And that to a level is. Fine. It’s fantastic. It’s actually part of the whole diverse perspectives, right? Yeah. We need everybody at the table. But then it’s also that, you know, [00:10:00] if it is that I, I’m so gonna write that down, that Hoover emotion, Huber, what did you say? Uh, mood Hoover. mood, , you know, just that person that has that, you know, walking into room and it’s negative energy and they, it’s not that questioning in a positive way, but questioning because they’ve been there for so long and they know it’s not gonna work.

Or just that. It’s a real drain on the people around them, even though they might deliver some great work and their, their question in certain scenarios would be really, you know, really useful to kind of create a better customer journey or a better experience or something better. But actually it’s not, that’s not the intention and the energy behind it.

Exactly, exactly. And it’s that intention, it’s that intention behind there. And I think as leaders, what we can do, and when I say leaders, I don’t necessarily mean somebody who’s sitting in that corner office in the C-suite. Yeah. Anybody can influence and lead, right? Yeah. Um, but I, I think it’s developing that culture and there’s that word again, but that culture that norm normalizing.

Naming it. Like if there is that, we all [00:11:00] leave the, we all leave the meeting, we’re all having a different experience of the meeting and we just feel deflated. Mm-hmm. Like, we feel like there’s no way forward really taking it, uh, a step back and seeing what is happening in the meeting. Yeah. Yeah. Like where is that energy changing?

Yeah. And, and really naming it. And I, I, I’ve been in, in conference rooms where I will actually. Put a pause on the meeting and say, we need to talk about what’s here. Something is here. Something is happening. Yeah. And so we can have all these different business proposals or quarterly business review or whatever we’re doing, but none of it’s gonna take hold and none of it’s gonna get us anywhere.

Yeah. Until we talk about what is actually happening. And then. Just getting comfortable sitting with the silence cuz there’s gonna be an uncomfortable silence after say that , I can imagine. And he’s gonna, he’s gonna let it linger. , a woman who’s spoken and a woman who’s been brave enough to say, let’s stop because something else is going on here, , something else is going on here.

And sure enough, you start to hear, [00:12:00] well, there’s a layout or there’s something, or there’s something has occurred outside of our influence. It’s like, then we need to invest this 45 minutes talking about. Because until we name it, until we actually unpack what’s happening, nothing else is gonna, nothing else is gonna take, yeah.

Um, because I mean, we’re, we’re, we’re human beings. And what happens outside the office influences us inside the office. And obviously air, air quotes around the office, because this, this is our office now sometimes. Absolutely. This podcast is produced by the podcast boutique, and the podcast boutique have been absolutely invaluable for me in helping take my fuzzy headed concept, develop the plan of what it was gonna be, what the podcast was gonna be, create a launch plan that then put us in the top 10 charts on launch week.

And then also they just put together the editing. They get it ready to launch. Uh, so it means each week you get to listen to a new, very well [00:13:00] edited, put together episode, and they are the experts and they help you to really develop your podcast so that you can have more downloads, you can reach more people, and serve your audience by really creating relevant subjects for right now.

So I really, really recommend. It’s great to have someone on your side, um, and they’re absolute experts in this area, so you can contact them at ww dot the podcast boutique.com. And that’s also in the show notes. Thanks for listening.

So if we go back to those five, uh, tributes that we talked about at the toxic environment. . In your experience, what does the toxic culture look like? Because like you said, those are quite big things, so if it got to the point where it’s abusive in terms of that could be physical, that could be. Um, spoken, but it’s just at that point at very extreme.

So what does, what does a toxic culture look like that maybe hasn’t got to those extremes yet? Mm. [00:14:00] Yeah, and that’s such a good question because we can, we can think about it in terms of unhealthy. Okay. We can think about it in terms of detrimental and, and yeah. It, it’s not always, and this has been.

Fascinating for me to cover, especially after, you know, the last three years where we’ve done so much changing and revisiting about what our priorities are and reevaluating what it means, right? To have a team in TAF culture. It doesn’t necessarily need to be. toxic or negative behaviors. It could be that there’s just never the there.

The infrastructure of the team isn’t designed to ever actually finish or deliver anything. Yeah. Right. You might not just have the infrastructure of being able to, okay, we’ve got a project, we understand, we come together, we work, and we deliver it, and then the next thing comes in. Yeah. If you don’t have the infrastructure to be able to.

you’re constantly feeling like you’ve not been successful. Work is just piling on. It’s like that conveyor belt and, and even that can lend to an unhealthy bordering on toxic environment. Yeah. Cause [00:15:00] everybody just feels so, it’s like such a soul crushing experience to go into work every day. Yeah. Because you just never get anything done.

Yeah. And those employees that are then very proactive really, you know, really focused on the career. Kind of lose that or you lose. This is like, well, what’s the point if I’m never, so I, I ran multimillion pound launches for telecoms and tech companies and as part of that, I, I love that part of it. I loved like being given the brief of this is what it is, this is the technology, this is how it works, this is, uh, creating the proposition around it, creating the commercials, getting all that approved, creating then the marketing training out to sales teams, out to our retail teams.

Um, and I love that, but I love that sense of complet. And I know the two weeks before a launch would be horrific. I know the week before something would break and you know, that would impact the whole thing and pit it all at risk. And like we’d managed to turn it around and I know that was all part of the process, but I, I love that sense of completion.

and I really love that. Um, when you were saying about what does a [00:16:00] toxic culture look like if we step back from that? Cause that word toxic is so loaded. It almost is a sense that it needs to be something huge and it’s company wide and it’s, it’s, it’s just really impactful and it’s, it’s. It’s seeping through everything, whereas this is almost not a step before that.

But another way to describe it is if the, the workplace or the culture is, is unhealthy, it’s detrimental to people. It’s not a positive experience in whichever way that is. So with that team, for example, there’s the culture. Of, you know, they’re probably not feeling fulfilled and not feeling like they have the clear vision of where they fit.

But then there’s also the unhealthy fact that they’re never actually finishing anything. That’s obviously gonna have an impact on the individuals and how they’re feeling, and how they’re feeling about themselves, but also the team. Because you look back at the end of the year or, or for a reviewer, you look back at what you’ve done and what you’ve delivered.

And if there’s nothing actually tangible, that’s gonna have a huge impact. So I, I really love that that label living. It’s unhealthy, it’s detrimental. It’s, it’s not a [00:17:00] positive experience. Cause I think the word toxic is so loaded. , it almost the senses it needs to be an extreme, whereas it doesn’t need to be an extreme for something to need to change.

And actually if it’s got there, that’s almost too late. . . Exactly. Then it’s way more difficult to reclaim a team. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it’s so, it’s so fascinating for me because, um, especially in the business tech industry, we can talk about, um, product launches and prototypes and beta testing and, and all of these tangible aspects.

I think because we’re so much more familiar, and people tend to not be emotionally invested in it. But when we talk about organizational behavior and interpersonal dynamics and being fulfilled as a human, people tend to kind of stay away from that. And I, I hear, you know, those are soft skills. Oh, it’s aws, not everybody’s, everybody’s like, mm.

But that’s the hard work. To me, that’s the hard work because that’s where you have to navigate the emotionally charged and the human aspect. And it’s [00:18:00] not. . Everybody needs to be wholly fulfilled as an individual through their work. Yes, that’s true for some people. Some other people, they just really like to geek out on power BI and data spreadsheets and, and yeah.

They have their life outside of that. Right. Whatever floats your boat. Yeah, . Exactly, exactly. It’s like we hit fulfillment different ways, but this is not that. This is about recognizing that we’re humans and as humans. stress is expected to be cyclical. Yeah. And we do, we do need those little pops of dopamine, those little, you know, those little Acknowledging our successes.

Yeah. And acknowledging sometimes success can be navigating a really difficult client meeting where we have to deliver bad news. Yeah. And we did it and we’re intact and. that should be on some weird level celebrated. Um, yeah, because we, cuz we got through and Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s where we get to that authentic understanding that our team is comprised of humans and not everybody wants to be recognized the same way.

Not everybody wants the [00:19:00] same thing out of their work. Yeah. And. Not that we necessarily have to cater an individual chart to everybody, but that we have to recognize them as humans. And I think where we start to see that leaning out of going back to the work style, I think that’s where we start seeing it.

It’s not a work style. It’s not how they are if people are feeling like or being perceived as a means to an. Yeah, absolutely. And I hate, I hate it when metrics are, um, or there’s a job title of human, is it human assets or human? Yeah. Oh, I just, I really hate, it’s like, no, no, no, no, we no . It’s like that’s the old autocratic style of leadership for me that just is.

You know, this person’s just fulfilling a role. They’re just delivering. And it’s like, no, that person’s got feelings. That person’s got family, they’ve got loved ones, they’ve got relationships, they’ve got hopes, they’ve got dreams, and we need to respect that. And it’s not, they’re not just a number. They’re not just like, if they leave, it’s attrition.

It’s like, well, what was that person’s experience? What were they [00:20:00] thinking? What were they feeling? What, what? Led them to that. Actually, we didn’t realize, one of the things that I, I proposed, uh, to this other, uh, company I was working for is do we have an onboarding plan? And part of that onboarding plan, is it built in automatic, you know, surveys just to see how is it going?

Like we have the little, how did we do with the end of surveys? And we have it, you know, I actually was, I was flying yesterday and I saw it in a public bathroom. It’s like, how would we do a little mighty face? You just touch on the way out. And it’s like, we don’t have that for. . Yeah. And they, their, their feedback was, well, that’s, that’s hr.

We don’t have, we don’t do that in hr. I’m like, that’s data collection. That’s not, yeah. Hr, but that’s also a manager. They’ve got some new work. I’m just checking in with them a bit more just mm-hmm. exactly. How are you, what’s going on? How are you doing? What do you need? Yeah. Yeah. So it’s just that human appreciation.

They’re in a new environment, so, yeah. Absolutely. Um, so we’ve talked about, obviously we started off, we were talking about those five kind of cultural tributes. We’ve talked about the [00:21:00] fact actually it’s, it’s not just about toxics of cultures, about where it’s unhealthy, where it’s detrimental, it’s not positive.

So what sort of things, if we come away from those, Big, scary kind of, it’s got to quite a bad place. With the culture and the environment. What do you, what would you be looking for? How do you recognize a culture that’s starting to become unhealthy? Starting to become detrimental, starting to become not a positive experience before?

It gets to probably what I would, I would kind of call a toxic culture. There tends to be some kind of shrinking. Mm. , and we can see this during a reorg. We can see this during some kind of massive change where there’s an element of uncertainty. Yeah. Um, either for future job or who am I here or will I be laid off and things like that.

There’s an introduction of uncertainty. Yeah. And, and then I start to see teams kind of shrink within themselves. Yeah. And then, The people start to shrink within themselves and the world gets smaller and smaller, and as that, that perception of the world gets smaller and [00:22:00] smaller, it, the magnitude of changes becomes larger.

Yes. And, and that’s when people start, you know, communications start breaking down and things like that. But for me, the one key in consulting work and in the working directly FTE e rules, is the language the people use to describe their situation. Mm-hmm. , I, I have a tendency to go in and just ask, you know, how are you, how, how are things going?

Because people will, whatever’s front of mind for them will, will come up first. Yeah. And listening for those keywords of. , is it always negative struggle, that type of nature? Yeah. Or are they forward looking and like, this is horrible, but it’s cyclical. We’re going to get out, like Yeah. They’re talking about a, a way forward.

Yes. Yeah. Or are they talking about. How it used to be. How it was, yeah, how things are, as if things are a fixed state that will just never get better. Um, and that can come up a lot of different ways depending on the team. But I, I looked at the language because you can, [00:23:00] and you mentioned something, uh, the term human resources or human assets or something like that.

Yes. Yeah. And, and, . It’s not that it’s all gonna be sunshine and roses, but the words that you use to describe the situation in the work actually shift that energy for people. Yeah. And, and it, it gets them focused on what they can control, what they can control, and, and how do you, how do you start moving forward?

Yeah. No, I love that. So if we, if we kind of summarize that so. , there’s some kind of shrinking in the organization that causes uncertainty and I’ve, I’ve lived through a lot of free structure, sort of basic redundancies where you, you hear the, you hear the rumors coming down the line, then you see people, the most senior people start to go into rooms.

Um, then you see people that aren’t showing up on in work anymore. Cuz then, and then you kind of retrospectively told, and you’re kind of going through all this in your mind and thinking, What’s my plan B if, if I’m one of those [00:24:00] And it’s just, it kind of eats away at you. It’s just really, and I, I definitely felt motivation kind of really hit the floor when I was going through those.

It’s like, I might not be here next week. Horse’s the point, um, that leads to, yeah, people shrinking, team shrinking, less delivered, and then it’s reflected. That the language and the kind of the energy around the business as well. Mm-hmm. , absolutely. And, and that’s where leaders can really step in and, and start to say what’s going on here?

And, and start to normalize those asking questions and being able to show up and say, I don’t know what’s going on either. It, it, we hear a lot of it’s okay not to be okay. And that. . Fundamentally true. Yeah. But we need leaders to demonstrate that and just say, I have a situation or something like that. I’m not showing up as myself today.

Yeah. Asking for a little grace from the team and just really normalizing that. Yeah, because we have to. Yeah, definitely. I talked to a client who’s going through. Restructuring is, is in on the horizon and not too far away for her and her team. And [00:25:00] we talked about, so I’m, I’m a neuroscience geek. I love the neuroscience of change.

That’s the basis of what I teach and what I coach in my programs and working with organizations. So we talked about the fact that. That team and they, she has, she doesn’t have the cert, she has more line of sight cuz she’s more senior. So she’s in some of those closed, closed door meetings. But she can’t, she doesn’t have answers yet.

They’re still working through what it’s gonna be and how it’s gonna work and what, what, what it, what it becomes in reality. So we even talked about for her, Having that, you know, being able to look up and kind of understand more of what’s going on, but actually for her team, just creating the certainty of, I will tell you when I know, and I can tell you as soon as you can, and this is on, it might even be, this is our next meeting date.

So I would hope that I could tell you more then until then, know that I am here for you. I’m here to support you and just, you know, do the best that you can. So it’s almost, you’re creating certainty. You create a bit of safety. Those people know that they’re supported, but from a brain perspective, even the certainty of, [00:26:00] oh, I won’t know anything more until this date, or I won’t not gonna know any, I know that when my boss knows more, I will know more.

Even that is certainty rather than the grace, welly mass of the, for me in those times. No communication is worse than any communication unless it’s incredibly badly handled in the wording is. . You know, I think no communication of silence is really the, the insidious kind of the creeping silence of just, oh my God, is it me?

Is it you? What’s gonna happen? And just had a baby and now, you know, might be losing my job. You know, all those kind of things. So, and creating that certainty. Even that, even in those times of change, it’s, it’s owning, owning the silence. And actually, I can’t tell you anything more at the moment when I know more.

And I can tell you, I, we will be in a room and I will be sharing it with you. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Cuz as humans, our imaginations are, are so adept because yeah, we’ll go from rumors and seeing people go into office and all of a sudden we’re [00:27:00] our imagination’s, like it’s bears, bears are coming for you.

It’s something completely out of the form. A possibility. Right? Yeah. And that’s it. It’s, it’s so powerful, right? Because it’s really just that, that intervention and just being very transparent. . Yeah. And take, taking the control and stepping into being the leader. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. That’s, yeah. And you mentioned product launches earlier.

And I was thinking about a, a situation where I was, I was coaching a team. They were going through an implementation and a reorg, like all of the Oh, the, the joy of transformation and delivery. Yeah. , yes. Keep doing what you’re doing, but we’re changing it all over here. and we’re not gonna tell you when and you have no control over it.

Yeah, yeah. So, but keep going, , keep going. It’s gonna be fantastic. Trust me. . Um, yeah. And so we were going through that and it was, it was interesting to them because I, I mean, I’ve been doing this for a long time and I’m you have as well, and, and we’ve seen it, right? Yeah. And at, at the end of the meeting, I’m like, you know, we’re gonna go through this implementation.

And if I’m being real, if I’m being honest, [00:28:00] Three years from now, you probably won’t even remember that you implemented this. Yeah. Like it has a shelf life and I know it’s horrible and this is not at all to diminish what you’re experiencing, but just be really careful what you hang on to. because you will go through this again.

It will be just a dire Yeah. But you’ll get through. You just will. And make sure that you’re intact and your team is intact. Yes. And just keep that, as you said, line of sight on the fact that there will be others. And I used to sketch out, uh, I miss whiteboards in person. Oh, I love a whiteboard. I love sketch out.

I love RI was a whiteboard. Yeah. . Um, and I used to, I used to draw out the curve of change, what I used to call. And so it starts out with, and this is much better without me just waving my arms with the , with the whiteboard, but it starts out with, there’s a happening, right? Something has occurred, and it’s either there’s a rumor or val layoff or a reorder something, and we all go through this process of this uncertainty, this angst what if, right?

And it kind of goes down to [00:29:00] the, the, the, the bottom of the. and then we start to explore new perspectives and we start consider what future state might be. And then, you know, we evaluate, we, it’s not a linear process, obviously, but eventually we get to integration. Yeah. And I think that’s where leaders are key, is helping people not just kind of ruminate and get stuck and, and.

Get trapped in that angst, but show them, give them hope. We need hope. We need hope that it’s gonna get better. Yeah. And even if better means yes, it’s going to, we’re laid off and we have to go reinvent ourselves, we will get to that integration point. Yes. Yeah. And at least then, you know, and you can act on the certainty as, um, a great quote from Bernie Brown, which is clear.

Clarity’s kind, lack of clarity’s, unkind, um, and just I think that the, when you’re a leader and you can just, like I said, even if you’re communicating what you do and don’t know, and just being really open, honest about that. That’s exactly what we were, I was talking to my client [00:30:00] about you. You can share the discussions that are going on, but you can discuss, you can share that you are involved in them and you are representing their, their perspective and their voice.

But also this is the next big meeting, so I’m hoping to know more then even that even, or even having a weekly team meeting. But as part of that team meeting, you are implementing like a sharing spot or an open 10 minutes when people are just gonna say how they’re. . Yeah. You’re just allowing people time to speak.

You’re allowing ’em time to voice what’s going on for them, how they’re feeling, and they feel heard. They feel listened to. They feel respected and recognized. Mm-hmm. . and also sometimes, occasionally carving out time in those meetings to just talk about something that isn’t the reorg. Yeah. . Um, I, I , I had a session where I was, I was outlining.

Okay. For 10 minutes we’re gonna talk about which Marvel character do you hate the most, or like, what is the worst family vacation that you ever had. Like, and, and just like a very fun, playful way, but something that is connecting them in a way that isn’t about the reorg. [00:31:00] Yeah. That isn’t about the grief and the uncertainty and everything else.

Yeah. and it’s, I think it’s okay to be playful. You know, I, I, there was, there was one team that actually went out, and this is gonna sound completely out there, but, um, they took 15 minutes and they just painted rocks, like something that you would do in like elementary school, but they like made little ladybugs and they made rocket chips and they did this.

But, but it was something that gave them. A break. Yeah. From the stress and I, I’m absolutely convinced that after that 15 minutes, they felt more human, more productive, more engaged with each other. Yeah. And went back to work just. Phenomenal. Yeah. See that you can’t put on the agenda that you painted rocks cuz the execs are gonna see that and they’d be like, oh, that’s the first team to go right there.

They’re just painting rocks. What? So why don’t, why don’t you try this guy ? Yeah. Yeah. I’d like to see that. So if we’re thinking about some of those smaller, so we talked about, um, and we, we didn’t like the term, we’ve already mentioned it, microaggressions. So [00:32:00] we’ve gone through a really great process and how to sport if there’s, like, there is change coming down the.

And is that shrinking kind of as a result of that? But if you’re in a, in a culture where there are those smaller, kind of insidious kind of subtle situation scenarios, things that make people uncomfortable, what, what might some of those look like? So if you are a woman at the top, what might, what you might you be seeing?

What might you be experiencing? The, the most tangible for me is, is noticing when the energy changes. . Um, so I, I liken to almost like a weather pattern, right? Mm-hmm. . So I, I, I used to live in Texas and you could actually feel like this cold blue storm front coming in Yeah. Because all of a sudden everything would get quiet and you’re like, something’s different.

Yeah. Um, and just being really attuned and mindful and present, um, to When does the energy shift? Does the energy shift when an email comes in from a colleague or when. , somebody comes into a meeting or when a topic is brought up in a meeting. Yeah. [00:33:00] Like there’s a shift in the energy and if you’re paying attention, you can kind of peel back and say, what happened to five minutes before this energy shift?

Yeah. Um, and I know that sounds very out there and, and I’m a business major at heart, and so I understand that we like tangible things, but we also have to pay attention to the more subtle experiences. Absolutely. The nuance. Yeah, absolutely. And then just, and then just. not being afraid to, to explore that.

What that does require though, is breaking that pattern of this culture of busy, hectic. Yeah. Like we are interruption driven and you know, we’ve got the phones and the notifications and the, and the dopamine when we clear out our inbox and things like that. Yeah. But this requires really being grounded in the moment and seeing.

how other people are experienced the meeting or the review or whatever else is happening. Yeah. Yeah. There, there was a, there was a really good example, and I’m trying to remember who it was that was mentioning this on a, almost like a 10 x talk, [00:34:00] um, that there was a product review and somebody had a really brief inhale when they were going through the product review and she’s like, she stopped and she’s like, what is coming up for you?

And phrase it, whatever’s natural for you, that sounds very, you know, like a therapist or something, but. . That person in that one moment was like, this is all wrong. We’ve been thinking about this wrong. Okay, and if that person hadn’t picked up on that, just sharp inhale. They would’ve just come, gone on and continued and who knows if the issue would’ve been raised.

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I’ve, I think you sat that awareness and I, that’s, we are talking about, um, having camera on or off, don’t we? Early. And it’s just like, I’d, I’d rather see your energy and see your reaction. Cause that kind of guides. Being a coach and I, you know, do some, sometimes coach on a on phone.

So I don’t see the clients, but more often, not I even wanna be in a room or I want to be on Zoom so I can, I can see you, I can see your reaction, I can see your energy. And actually as a, a leader, um, it’s [00:35:00] incredibly powerful to have that. It’s almost based on your own self-awareness of knowing yourself and knowing your reactions, to then be able to notice it in other people when, when someone’s different, when someone’s sighing heavily, when someone’s shoulders drop.

All those kind of things, because those are. , that’s the subconscious, that’s what’s going on for them. That’s what’s true for them in that moment. So yeah, I think that’s incredibly powerful. So I just, I wanted to ask, I made a note early, cause we’ve got, um, a shift in kind of generations at the moment and we’ve obviously got Jen, Jen y and we’ve got the millennials and it makes me feel really old, but that’s a whole nother conversation.

But, There’s this shift and it feels like there’s a bit of a power shift away from organizations being, having the power to employees, especially younger employees, having the power. What do I mean by that? I mean that. They look for, yes, a great package, a great salary, a role that’s gonna stretch ’em in development, or they look for all of those things.

But they also look for some, some things from the company culture as well. They look to see that a company has a [00:36:00] good, clear purpose. They look to see that that company’s having a good positive impact on the world around them. They look to see if they’re gonna be part of something bigger and something that’s making a positive change, an impact on society.

Do you, do you see that in the work that you do that that power shift, and actually if those employees don’t like it, they will actually vote with their feet and be gone. So it’s almost the responsibility to, if you want to engage that younger talent that you need to be considering, is your culture and healthy, is it detrimental?

Is it actually getting to the point where it’s more, it’s almost becoming a toxic culture, or do you have. Managers or leaders who are toxic that are creating that micro environment within their teams. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you’re absolutely right. And the, the data supports that, the it, the data supports that, that people really are looking for that sincere, authentic, yeah.

What are you doing for the community? What are you doing to make your organization truly inclusive? [00:37:00] How are you showing up for my friends? How are you showing up for people? I will never mean my life. And it’s interesting because I, I see that as, kind of the shift, like, like my, my dad, right? My dad worked for the same company, retired, got a pension, all same things.

Yeah. And, and looked at me in my consulting. It’s like I’ve never been with a company for more than five years, my entire life. Um, and it, it’s that shift. It’s like, but how are you gonna retire? Because that’s, that’s where he grew up in the world that I grew up in doesn’t exist anymore. And so we need to be, Aware that it’s not necessarily a bad thing or a judgment thing, it’s that’s what they’re looking for.

Yeah. And so how do we address it? How do we make our organization and specifically our team attractive? Yeah. In a way that is really authentic Because people don’t work for companies mission statements anymore. No. They, they work for, they work for teams. They work for. , that connection they have with the manager.

And are they part of something bigger than [00:38:00] themselves? Are they Yeah. Doing something that’s meaningful and not meaningful in the title, you know, salary, things like that. But in the bigger picture, and again, this is a, this is a generalization. This is not everybody, right. But we are, we are seeing that by cohort.

And honestly, after the last three years, we’re seeing. Manifest in even, you know, gen X as far as like leaving the corporate world out together and starting their own business. Yeah, starting their own thing. Taking time off because we’ve reassessed what that means. And so to your question, as far as like the leaders in the industry, I think we need to listen more.

to what they’re, what they’re asking. Yeah. And not necessarily out of hand dismiss it and not necessarily think that just having an e s G or, you know, a diversity statement is, is gonna be ahead gotta be that. It’s every, every touchpoint of the life cycle of your employees, your candidates, your, your customers, everything conveys what you’re, what you’re.

Yeah, this is really interesting. When I [00:39:00] work with organizations and we’re working on say, gender parity, we’re working on creating a more inclusive culture. And as part of that, even looking at the recruitment process, but even before someone applies, you know, what, what are they seeing on the website? What are we sharing in the newsletter?

What’s the latest news and is it, is it all corporate or actually is it a team that’s been out and done something good in the community on just to. Create that create almost a perception of this is how, this is how this organization will be to work within, and before they even start the recruitment process, everyone googles everything in the world.

Like, what do we do before Google? We, you know, and it’s like, I had, I, I was gifted. This shows how old I am. I I love that. My grand gay Muny Encyclopedia Britannica, when I was young and I, we had like 20 copies and that, that was how you learn. So many things, but if you’ve got Google now, you can already build that perception of how a company is so, For me, it’s really down to the leaders of what do they, and I think a leader, you’ve got two [00:40:00] responsibilities.

Well, you’ve got a lot, but if you break it down to two, you’ve got your role and your deliverables and the strategy that is agreed at a company level that you are responsible delivering your part of it. But then you also have, the second part of that is almost what are you role model? So when people are looking up to you and you’re looking across your peers, what are they seeing in you?

What, how are you showing up? How, what’s your behavior? What’s your energy? And for me, things like that. That goes back to is it okay for a man to slam his fist on the table? Cause he’s passionate and he is driven. But if a woman shows tears, cuz she’s frustrated cause something’s broken or process not supporting her.

That’s not okay. And that’s actually, that’s overemotional and you’re overreacting. So for me it’s, it’s almost, it’s those two parts as a leader that you have around creating, creating that culture and the deliverables of your, what you deliver and how you deliver it. But then there’s also the, the what do you want to role model?

And that’s, that’s a huge part, your responsibility, cuz there’s a lot of eyes looking up to you and seeing, well, how are you doing it? How have you got to where you are? How are you being [00:41:00] so effecti? a and you touched on so many amazing points I could spend the next hour unpack. Yes, yes, yes. The whole, the whole slamming things and, and, and that is, is acceptable.

That’s passionate. But if you, you know, don’t cry outta frustration because Yeah. Ha. Have a bit of woman cries and shows emotion cause it’s not in the right one. Which, and if a woman banged a fist on table, she’d be aggressive or difficult or challenging. Freaking out his difficult. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That is, are you ok? Do you wanna go to the bathroom and sort yourself? Yes, exactly. Or take a moment if they’re a little, you need anvil. Yes, yes. . Yeah. All day. We could do that. Yeah. But it’s, um, I, I think the really cool thing about this though is that we are, It, it, it is about modeling and it’s also about modeling how you interrupt things like that.

Mm-hmm. , uh, when I was talking to some, uh, some of my male colleagues about we wanna support women and we just, we don’t like, it’s such a dance for them because they don’t wanna intervene in the wrong way. They don’t wanna help too much and things like that. And I, again, [00:42:00] generalization, this is not a broad.

Capital T truth, but things like disrupting their peers and saying, I can’t hear what Preya is saying if you keep talking over her. So please just absolutely let her finish her thought and just things like that, that that will disrupt it in the moment. But you’re not the hero. You’re not, you know, what Preya is trying to say is right.

Yeah. Um, and let me help you. Yes, please. And then put, definitely put the hand on the shoulder cuz that’s not demeaning . Yeah. One of the things that we’ve really seen come out of the last three years is, , you don’t have to have all the answers. In fact, it’s better if you don’t have all the answers. So feeling, you know, there’s a difference between having that leadership and bringing teams together and exploring and, and leading the conversation because you have an intended end game.

Right? But saying I don’t have all the answers, and that’s why I’m bringing all you smart, incredibly talented, diverse perspective humans into the room. And opening it up that way because yeah, too often I see leaders sit down. It’s like, so I [00:43:00] wanna hear what you think first. Here’s what I think. Yeah. up the plan, right?

And then everyone’s like, well, now I have to agree, or I’m gonna get fired. So, yeah. Um, yeah, just bringing it into that. That conversation. You don’t have to get consensus from everybody, but getting that perspective and that’s how you start to normalize and model those behaviors. Jan, I think we could talk all day and go through a lot of different areas, so it’s been absolutely brilliant.

But it’s there a final message for our audience today, cause we’ve covered a lot around toxic cultures, how to identify if they’re unhealthy. Then we’ve gone into individuals how to kind of support your team, but then into what leaders should be really thinking about with setting the culture and role modeling.

is there a final message for the audience today from you? Oh, my final message is also, uh, always never underestimate your ability to influence as a, as a person. Mm-hmm. . Um, and then also really take advantage of the things that you have available to you. I kind of stay away from the more privilege, because that’s getting, you know, so much.

[00:44:00] Connotation and preparation around it, but, um, understanding what you have available to you and when you’re giving guidance to your teams, understand that they might not have that same thing available to them. Yeah. . Yeah. I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Um, if people have listened today and they want to hear more about what you do and how you can support where, where can they find more information?

Oh, yes. So, uh, if you wanna learn more about my work and who I am in the world, it is, uh, paging dr jen.com. Uh, I also hang out a lot on LinkedIn. I’m starting to hang out more on Instagram, but that’s a new thing for me. So , that’s a little starting stuff, but, uh, no, uh, yeah. And Dr. Jen and. Always happy to connect with people and learn more about they’re working on in the world.

And I, I just think this con this conversation needs to keep going and it’s a collaboration. Um, yeah. So yes, I, I’m happy to connect with any of, any and all of your listeners. Brilliant. We’ll pit all the details in the show notes, we’ll get those from you anyway, so just a link to click. So, but Jen, thank you for getting [00:45:00] up early today and thank you for joining me and we, we got our time zones all aligned and it was well worth week.

So thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. You’re so welcome. Um, and thanks for listening everyone, and we will speak to you on the next podcast if you haven’t already, we’d love you to subscribe or leave a review because then more people can find us or share with a colleague, a peer or a friend if you think today’s episode’s gonna help them.

So yeah. Thank you so much. Speak to soon. Bye.

Hi, it’s Nick here. I just wanna take a moment just to say thank you for listening when I’m sat recording the podcast in the deepest steps of Cornel. It’s incredible to think that it’s reaching women across the world in 30 different countries, and we have thousands downloads a month, so thank you so much for being part of that and being part of the.

It means the world to me. But I do want to grow this audience. I would love you to help me reach more women like you so that we can really drive positive [00:46:00] change in the corporate world. So you can do that one of three ways. First of all, you can subscribe to the podcast. You never miss an episode. It’s always a new episode’s always delivered straight to your inbox.

You can review the podcast and leave us a rating, and the more ratings we have, we also got up in the podcast charts. And finally, you can just. A favorite podcast with a peer, with a colleague, or on your social media, so I would love you to do that. Thank you for all your help, and I can’t wait for what’s next.