Nicola: [00:00:00] Hi is Nick. And I am really, really excited today to introduce the new name of the podcast I wanted to pop on and introduce it because it’s a little bit of a, uh, shift back to where I was, but in the most brilliant way. And I, when I was in the corporate world, so I had a 16 year corporate market career and I worked in telecoms and tech companies and I put together I was a go-to market expert for a lot of that.

And then. Um, went into more commercial roles. So I Ram 2 million pound launches for these big tech and telecoms companies. And I loved the, what lot of what I did that. Then I moved into more of a commercial role. So looking at new product launches, pit the commercials together and my last roles ahead of commercial role.

So it felt very natural that over the last year, as I’ve very much focused on leadership and exec [00:01:00] coaching, I’ve moved naturally into more of a telecoms and a tech focus. Because I know that market. I know the challenges that women in those industry space. I know that you are likely to be the only woman in the room.

I know the more senior you get, the less women that you’ll see around you. I know at the very top, you are not likely to have many female peers. And I know at the early stage of your career, If you are in a role that’s engineering or more technical, again, you are likely to be a lone female voice in a room.

So it felt very natural when it came to the anniversary of the podcast. And I wanted to think about the direction was taking to come back to that world. So the podcast is now called. Women at the top of telecoms and tech. So it’s a subtle change, but for me, it’s a really, really important one. If you are not in either of those industries, please don’t worry.

This still applies to you. Absolutely. But this is just to really demonstrate my focus, my commitment, and my [00:02:00] want to make changes in those industries where women are really, really hugely underrepresented. So maybe not so much at the junior levels, but the higher women get and the more they get to that, the top table.

And the more that they are to be the lone voice, the more they are to feel potentially quite lonely, the more they are to feel that they are the only one speaking out on certain subjects, they are the only ones that are challenging certain behaviors. So this to me is really just a mark on sand day.

These are the markets that I’m an absolute expert in. These are the ways that I can help you. And also I understand your lived experience. I know how you are feeling so that’s my very exciting news. So just introducing the new name of the podcast. Women at the top of telecoms and tech. And I would love you to keep listening.

If you’re not in that industry, everything’s still gonna be super relevant to you if you’re a woman at the top, but I would love you to share the podcast on your socials. I would love you to share an episode with a colleague or peer, if you think it’s useful to them [00:03:00] and something’s relevant, or I would love you to rate and review the podcast as we grow into this new audience.

So thank you so much for listening and thank you for being part of this. Hello, and welcome to the female leaders on fire podcast, which is now being renamed as women at the top of telecoms and tech. So today I’m really excited. I’m here to introduce, uh, one of my incredible, um, long term VIP clients.

Tamsin Allington. Um, so Tamsin worked in a number of different organizations has progressed the way up and now is working within quite a male dominated or very male dominated industry. So she’s gonna be sharing some of her lived experiences, some of the lessons from her career today, and also what organizations can do to really support women.

In more male dominated industries and her title today’s podcast is bold and brave and on the board. So how to really be yourself in those more [00:04:00] senior positions and what that actually means, and also how to be a role model of women at the top and how organizations can support women together. So she’s an incredible lady.

I think you’re gonna get so much from today. I love her energy. I love her. What she has to say and just her absolute honesty. So yeah, I think you’re gonna really enjoy this today. And I am really excited that she gave us her time. So thank you, sir. Tamsin for today. And another woman that I think is really gonna inspire you.

So yeah. Get ready. Grab yourself cup, have a listen to the interview. Thanks so much. Bye. Hello and welcome today’s podcast. I’m very excited because we have another one of our interviews. So this is part of our anniversary podcast. So the podcast is now we going for a year. Um, we’ve had nearly, I think we’re up nearly 8,000 downloads, um, where across 30 countries, which kind of blows my mind.

And what we wanted to do to kind of celebrate was just to. [00:05:00] Interview some really inspirational women at the top who have some lessons to share, have a lot to say. And I think the real inspiration. So I’ve chosen women that I have been inspired by and inspired to be like, and really today, what we’re gonna be doing is just talking to Tamson.

Allenton, I’m really, really excited that she’s here and Taza. I’ve worked together for a little while now, and we’re gonna be talking about how to be bold and brave and be on the board and just really be. Who you truly are and how at times that can potentially fall away due to want inter fitting or due to pressure, or just due to maybe losing a bit of confidence, but how you can then start to kind of bring that back.

And, um, just to introduce Tamsin before she introduces herself. Um, so she’s the people and communications director sent Austal family group. They’re a regional brewing and pub company based in the so. And, um, I’ve been to some of the pubs. I really love them. And it’s 180 strong pub state, and also is [00:06:00] a thriving beer and brands business as well.

So it’s annual turnover, 200 million and 1800 people. So she’s accomplish senior leader operating at board level. She’s had experience across a number of different areas, and she’s a very innovative and creative thinker and there’s elements of the very commercial and elements of woo as well, which I absolutely love.

Um, and she’s very focused on developing talent for inclusive, empowering strategies. Um, so she grew up in Cornel. So she’s a fellow Cornish woman like me, which I love, and then moved away to develop a career. Returned to west country four years ago to join an Austal. And now she lives in Devon with her husband Lewis.

So, yeah. Welcome. Tamson I’m really excited that you’re

Tamsyn: here. Thank you, Nick. Pleasure to be here. And I’m really excited to have been invited. Oh, I apologize. I’ve got a Greg voice today, so hopefully people can hear me properly. Oh,

Nicola: yeah, that we’ll see how we go. We’ll see how we go. We don’t eat training, straining your voice, but if you could just start off, you’ve had this brilliant career and I love the fact that you are a [00:07:00] Cornish woman and you went away probably to me.

I was waiting for 21 years and then it was always pulling and never. Nowhere ever felt like home. And then I decided to come back home and we’ve talked about this a lot and we’ll talk about this as we go through the podcast. But we think this is almost like this incredible group of female leaders within the Southwest and within Cormo and something we love to do is talk, um, create more of that network.

But how did you, how did you come to be where you are in your career now? What the what’s some of the chapters of the, your story to get to where you are now. That’s a, it’s

Tamsyn: a great question. I would love to tell you it was by, you know, some incredible reason process that I went through, but I didn’t really, I, um, I really, I suppose if I go right back to when I was.

When I was a kid, really, I, I had a real passion for art and design and, um, I really wanted to go to art school. And my mom told me I couldn’t cause there was no money in it. um, and so I didn’t, um, you know, to cut a long story short and I, I think what I ended up doing, I, it’s probably a theme throughout my career.

I’m quite Maverick in, in, yeah. In my thinking I’m [00:08:00] quite rebellious. And, um, I was pretty academic at school as well as having the ability to sort of draw and, um, She wanted me to take the academic route and I didn’t. And so I sort of quit, quit. College. And just at the time I had a Saturday job in top shop and, um, and it was just quite rebellious.

I was so annoyed. I’m like, what do you mean? I can’t go to art college? And so I, I just said, oh, I’m going to go and get a job. And I did. I took, I, I went to my Saturday job and said, you know, is it, can I come and work here full time? And. They said yes. And, and that’s kind of how I started really. I mean, um, and I spent a number of years in retail and then I moved back into food.

My mom’s background was in food anyway, so, uh, and. I, I guess throughout my career, I mean, it was probably only really in my late thirties that I started to really consider what I needed to be doing. And I’d done quite sort of big operational roles and, um, had spent time in some large companies, um, river island, [00:09:00] top shop, uh, new look during its massive growth phase mother care.

And yeah, I’ve been very lucky, but I, I didn’t do any of it by design really. And I suppose. All of my roles up until that point were sort of operational. And then I had the opportunity to sort of move into a specialism. Um, and until I moved into, uh, people in L and D and I guess my, the last two roles I’ve had, including this current one have given me the opportunity to sit on the operations board for both of those businesses, which in itself, I hadn’t really ever considered until somebody said, would you like to.

And, and both of those experiences have been tremendous. And I guess where I found myself up until probably four years ago was I was working in London. Um, and I was living just outside of Bristol and I, I really had this pool to come home back to Coolmore and I didn’t really understand what that meant.

I just sort of had this sense of space.

Nicola: S resonates you with me. Very similar.

Tamsyn: Yeah. And I just had this burning desire to, to come back and I felt that I’d achieved a lot up [00:10:00] until that point. And, and St gave me that opportunity, um, to, to come back and it wasn’t necessarily a strategic career move. It was, it was very driven by sort of personal.

Desire really to be back in, in, in this place. Um, and the company that I then knew, you know, is an amazing business. Um, it’s a legacy business, but it’s very traditional and, um, and perhaps was, um, very well not perhaps it is very different to the company that I’ve been with before. And so I suppose that that’s.

That’s a double edged sword, because on, on one hand, it gives you an opportunity to think about how you can affect change, particularly in the senior role. And I joined as the people director at that time, and then subsequently had the opportunity to, um, To have my role expand across other areas of the business, but it it’s a double edged sword because you, you can see the change that you can affect, but equally you, you are operating in a space that is, is perhaps less open to change just because of the nature of the organization.

And I, and I suppose, you know, in, in slapping the middle of that, we obviously went through the, the [00:11:00] pandemic and. Obviously the whole world was significantly impacted by that, but, you know, the hospitality industry in particular has taken quite a heavy beating. So we really had to think, um, very carefully about how we sort of pivot and, and move away from, uh, perhaps some of the ways we were operating before as a result of that.

So yeah, that, that, that’s how I am. I am in the role I’m in today.

Nicola: Yeah. So I love the fact that you didn’t have a, like a

Tamsyn: strategic plan. So would

Nicola: you say that you’ve been quite a heart led or would you say that you’ve been, just looked at opportunities come up or have you been quite logical for actually this, this feels like a great, or has it been a combination?

So what have you done instead of have that strategy, then your

Tamsyn: honesty, it just worked out. Yeah, well, and it hasn’t always worked out and I suppose that’s the other thing, but what I, what I believe to be true in my lived experience is that I think you, you kind of create your own reality. So I think if you are open to [00:12:00] opportunity and you see things.

Through the sort of lens of curiosity. I think that’s a far more positive way to approach things. So I, I, I’ve never gone out and decided I never, never set the ambition to be holding a director title up, you know, I’ve never set the ambition to sort of sit on, on, on an operating board. , but I suppose my motivation has always been about wanting to do the best work that I can do.

Yeah. Um, and, and, and have a positive impact. And, you know, I’m commercial, like, you know, you have to be commercial in any role that you do, particularly actually in a people role. I think because people assume that you do the fluffy stuff, but actually people. The people function in a, in a, in a well rounded business should be very strategic and commercial.

Yeah. Because your people are the, are the fuel that’s really driving your business. And I think that’s been my approach in terms of trying to create structures and systems and ways of working that would, that would credibly demonstrate that rather than setting the ambition to do a certain role or have a certain title.[00:13:00]

So I think there’s an element of that. I, I, I also think that I am a believer in, you know, What you put out, you get back and that, that’s probably a bit of the wooo side of me as well. Actually. I do think that if you are, I don’t know, some people might call it law of attraction. Some people might call it something else.

And, and I think you have to work hard and I’m, you know, I believe in the power of, of having a strong work ethic. I don’t think things get handed to you yeah. On a play. But I think you can be quite, um, clear in what you’re trying to create and, you know, putting, putting positive stuff out there, being positive in your intention.

Really being clear about how you want to add value to others. I think pays back. And my experience to this point tells me that when I’ve done that well, and I’ve been really intentional in wanting to do good work and collaborate, um, and be positive, good stuff has happened. That doesn’t mean to say that bad stuff doesn’t happen because it does.

But I think those, those attitudes help [00:14:00] you get through some of the, some of the bad stuff, when things don’t always get to.

Nicola: Yeah. Do you think that intentional positivity and has helped create that resilience, especially going through the pandemic? And obviously the, the company went through, you know, a lot of pressure and a lot of managing of a huge business.

Do you think that positive, intentional positivity helped with getting you through that?

Tamsyn: Yeah, I think so. And I, I think I’m lucky that I work inside a, a tight team that we were very focused on. I mean, we talked internally about fighting to survive, but recovering brilliantly. So we knew what we were fighting.

As many businesses were. And many people were to sort of survive in that, in that time. But we also wanted to ensure that, that we were coming out. We were seeing it as, you know, we were on a journey and we knew that we were gonna come out the other side and, and. Recover brilliantly. And that was very intentional in terms of that language.

And I think language is really important. Yeah. [00:15:00] In terms of how things are described and where you put your energy in terms of language and setting things up and setting intention and being very focused on a goal or where you’re trying to go to, rather than looking for all of the reasons why you may not achieve it.

And I think there’s a big thing about. And I suppose this plays out in my work. It’s a really, really cool part of my work is having diversity of thinking within a team is really key because if you’re all thinking about things in the same way, you’re not necessarily gonna have the same ability to solve problems or think more innovatively about different solutions.

And, you know, there were every day there was tests. You know, and challenges and not really knowing, like I can remember very clearly being in that position. And I’m sure there are tens of thousands of people around the UK who felt the same, that, you know, you’re looking at having an employer, you know, an employee.

Group that you are responsible for as a team, knowing that you didn’t know how you were gonna pay them. And yeah. And then people start, you know, the government started using words like furlough and [00:16:00] nobody knew what it meant.

The were based a degree, somewhat on educated, guesswork, because we weren’t getting, nobody was getting the right information at, at, at the speed that we would’ve wanted it. But I think we were very focused on. Knowing we were gonna come out the other side, preserving the business, preserving cash, taking care of our people.

Yeah. Taking care of our customers to the best of our ability. And that, that was the focus. And I think that kept us going because we were responsible for a lot of other people, uh, our tenants, our suppliers, and. That that keeps you focused on what you can achieve in even in the face of adversity and yeah.

You, you, that my God, that builds your resilience. Definitely. .

Nicola: Yeah. Do you think, do you think during that time, when you were making those educated guesses, do you think that was, did that bring in that your intuition and your, just your sense of knowing from experience from, [00:17:00] you know, just that internal, this is what I think we should do.

Tamsyn: I think in terms of the people agenda. Yes. I I’m quite an intuitively led person and I had to consider how the, how our teams felt. How did I, how would I want to be, you know, we were all in it together, but actually for the, you know, at one point we had. And our business didn’t fully shut down. Um, we kept brewing during that time, but probably the lowest point of, of activity.

We had less than a hundred people still actively working in the business, the restaurant fur. And so we had to think really clearly about how we kept people connected. How did we communicate when you can’t physically. Meet people or bring them into, into the workplaces and stuff like that. And, you know, I’m fortunate that I work inside a team where we’ve got some very skilled people.

So, you know, uh, the, the, the senior team around me were, were very focused on, you [00:18:00] know, managing cash flow, you know, keeping up external parties, updated, you know, lobbying the government, all of those things. And my role was to try and ensure that our teams felt supported and taken care of. And yeah, there, wasn’t a big element of intuition.

I wanna stand in their shoes. That’s my natural yeah. Place is to stand in their shoes and consider how they might feel. And I think, I think we did a good job during that time to try and ensure that they, we, we needed to keep people with us because we truly believe that we were gonna be trading the other side of it.

And we needed to keep our people with us both in terms of taking care of them, but also preserving the.

Nicola: Yeah, no, I love it. And yeah, well, , it’s just, it’s so strange to look back now and think about it and just think about everyone had that different lived experience, but such an impact on so many people and businesses and yeah, absolutely.

When I was. Just talking through your ins introduction and two words that really stood out for me. And I think we’ve talked about this quite a lot, um, during our coaching, but just that the Maverick side, almost [00:19:00] like that S don’t want to just play along with the rules. Just say more about how that shows up in your leadership.

Tamsyn: Well, that’s, it’s interesting. I definitely have, there’s a pattern for me in my career where I’ve got to certain points in roles where maybe some of those needs aren’t necessarily met. I mean, if you looked at my sort of psychometric profiling, you probably question why I’m in the role that I’m in. But actually I think that kind of gives me a.

Because I, I, I probably think slightly differently to many other people that might traditionally be in the type of role that I do, but, and I definitely went through a phase and I don’t know whether it was because of COVID or just because I’d come into a, into a team in an organization that was probably a bit more rooted in legacy than maybe some of the other businesses that I’d worked in previously.

Yeah. But I definitely lost. Or I chose to sort of put it away for a bit or be maybe a little bit more compliant in terms of how I might describe things. And, [00:20:00] and I think that probably didn’t didn’t serve me very well. I mean, there’s a difference between being re rebellious and Maverick and being rude.

Yeah. And my intentions never to be rude or disrespectful, but there is a piece about. For me, it’s important for me to be able to speak my truth and show up as who I am. And I think bringing differences to the table is really important. I think when you, when you have a group or a team that maybe are all, you know, wide in the same way, thinking the same way, I think you end up just sort of talking into a bit of an echo chamber, really.

Really, um, and the strength of a team is, is when you can build a team, that’s got diversity and I don’t just mean diversity in, in the traditional way that you would see. Yeah. Or consider diversity. I mean, diversity of thinking and different backgrounds and different experiences that you can bring to the table.

And. I suppose coming out of, you know, the pandemic situation and, and kind of what everybody went through. I’ve definitely tuned up my, my belief around, you know, what, what I [00:21:00] bring to the table is unique. And my point of view is unique and yeah. You know, to, to, to be a little bit disruptive in terms of some of the thinking, some of the ways.

Of working and some of the ways that we might wish to see things or choose to consider different options, I think is, uh, critical. I, I think it’s critical for a business and I think it’s critical for individuals to feel that they can, can do that. And, you know, my opinion, isn’t always the right one, you know, my view, but.

It’s important to me to be able to stand there and have a different point of view. And I think that’s, what’s key. And I think teams that don’t see that or leaders that don’t see that, or encourage that within their own teams are missing a trick because you leave so much innovation or opportunity or creative problem solving opportunities.

If you don’t encourage people to, to share different ways of different thoughts. And I suppose. Within my work, some of those things are now, [00:22:00] you know, me encouraging senior teams to think about things like shadow board opportunities or having different representations from different layers of the organization on decision making committees.

Because I think if you just end up making decisions around a table with the same group of senior leaders about the same topic, You know, you, you end up getting the same results. And I, I just, I just don’t think that that’s, that’s where you get innovative thinking the ability to be able to influence people to do that is, is a different conversation.

So with those. With those types of, you know, suggestions sometimes come some resistance because there’s a, a bit of a fear factor or, you know, people feel very comfortable around how they, they currently operate. So there’s a, there’s a piece there about encouraging people to think about, you know, change and taking, taking teens and organizations through change.

Nicola: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it’s that, that sense of everyone feeling like they’re part of something bigger. And I’ve, I’ve [00:23:00] been doing some interviews around for some research around white paper. And part of what I was talking about today was almost having that, that diversity of thinking and that.

Feeling safe and feeling you belong to something bigger and that commercial understanding just of your business and your industry so that you might have an area of expertise, but you’ve also got this really great understanding of the business and how it works and the form of better word kind of the commercials behind it, because then you’re suddenly.

You are even more rounded as someone in your role. And that’s when you can potentially even see people moving into different areas and taking that experience and that understanding with them, um, and that move away from kind of silo if I’m an expert here. And it’s like, and I think for me during my career, I always had, I always had this natural curiosity.

I’m a bit of a geek. So I quite enjoyed kind of learning about like a te a new technology that was launching or how something worked or mm-hmm . I always thought, well, if I can explain. This brand new technology to my, [00:24:00] my lovely Cornish mom. Who’s a very intelligent lady, but she’s not from the world of technology then that’s that’s I understand it.

And I, I own it and I can, you know, I can talk about it confidently. Yeah. But I love that idea of that. Almost that, that openness of thinking that yeah. Creates that. New just, just different ways or actually makes people reinforce their own ideas or see something in a different way and perspective. Yeah,

Tamsyn: I think, um, we’ve started to talk a lot in my current organization around, you know, how you create genuine psychological safety.

Mm-hmm for people to, to share those ideas. And it’s, it’s, it’s sometimes easier said than done. And I think. I think the closely that you can narrow the gap between the sort of lived experience of the quote unquote senior team, um, and, and the rest of the organization, that, that the easier that becomes in terms of truly creating conditions, where people can feel safe to share and also safe to fail.

Actually, you know, if you can set up, if you can set up systems or ways of working, that genuinely enable [00:25:00] things to be tested, Without fear of failure. You know, you can learn a lot from, from some of those, some of those situations. And I think those two areas are critical. I also think, um, it’s interesting what you said there about when you were in corporate, you know, there’s, there’s a couple of points in an employees journey and in business where.

You can learn or you can utilize that yeah. To really learn. So when somebody first comes into an organization, there is a very short period of time where they are seeing that organizational part that they’re in through fresh eyes. And you only get that for, for a moment in time before they become a little bit more sort of.

Conditioned into, into how the organization is working so that that’s critical. And then, yeah, I think also giving people the opportunity to come from one area of expertise and look at a different area and get their view as somebody who may not have that technical expertise, but will have a very fresh perspective.

Yeah. I think those two opportunities are huge and I don’t think enough [00:26:00] businesses do that. We don’t do that enough, uh, because you kind of get sucked into that day to day getting stuff done, you know, you’re so worried about making the widget or whatever it’s you do. Yeah. But you, you don’t really create enough space or time to sort of, you know, uh, have that sort of innovative thinking space.

And I think that’s, that’s what we are trying to create more of. Uh, but it’s not always easy, but I think those things are, are really, really helpful.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And just kind of leading on from that. So what do you think are the key lessons you’ve learned from being a woman at the top? So you’ve got this great position and there’s more to come and it’s, it’s really exciting, but for someone who’s maybe finding things a bit difficult at the moment and feeling a bit disillusioned or for someone that might be listening, who’s kind of not where they want to be quite yet.

What do you think your biggest lessons.

Tamsyn: Um, I think there’s a few really, I think finding if you, if you are, I mean, I’m, I’m the only woman on a, on a male team. And I [00:27:00] think one of the things that I’ve learnt, if, if you can find, uh, it’s not necessarily about having other female role models alongside of you, because that might not be the case, but finding.

You know, a counterpart within your team that can sponsor some of the things that you are thinking about or doing, I think is really helpful. Yeah.

Nicola: Um, it’s almost like creating allies and yeah,

Tamsyn: I think having great, great mentorship outside of the organization is really important. Yeah. And I, it doesn’t necessarily, if you’re are a woman in business, it doesn’t necessarily need to be another woman, but, you know, I, I’ve been very fortunate in that.

I’ve had a fantastic, uh, industry, female mentor who’s been, you know, really helpful. Coaching I think is, is, you know, genuinely very helpful. And obviously we’ve been a coaching relationship and I think to have an external point of view and to, to help you work through that, and it’s an investment, but it’s an investment in you and, and, and your career.

And I think network, you know, and most people sort of cringe at the word network or [00:28:00] networking, but I think, you know, I am heavily reliant on, I’m very grateful for having the network that I’ve got and that’s about building. You know, whether that’s colleagues from another ex colleagues from another business or friends, or, you know, just having that external network outside of the business, I think really helps.

I, I also think there’s a piece and it’s easy set than done, but I think, you know, It’s okay. To show up with a different point of view. It’s okay to, and it’s okay to state that. And I think, you know, I, I was given a piece of advice by a, a senior female who said to me, you know, um, it’s gonna be really hard to in, and I’m every time you tell me that it’s really hard, I’m just gonna keep pushing you back out there and telling you to keep fighting and, and all the rest of it.

And I just think sometimes, like, it doesn’t have to be that conflict all of the time. Yeah. Sort of fight between mm-hmm yeah. Um, the fight between the, the genders and all that. I think a lot of it is to do with how you can approach the relationship differently. And, [00:29:00] and, you know, I think that’s the same for, for, for women as it is for men, but yeah, absolutely.

I suppose the other thing I would say, which I’ve, I’ve definitely learned and I think has held me in good stead is I just don’t conform, like I’ve been told I should play golf. I don’t wanna play golf. can’t imagine you play golf. So, um, not really my thing, but there is, there’s still, those things exist.

Right. You know, in the industry

Nicola: I did actually, we, I think we talked about this didn’t we, and I did actually have a client who started golf lessons realized she didn’t like, it didn’t like any of the clothes. And I thought, what, what a waste of time? I don’t wanna. It’s like the Rachel and friend when she starts smoking.

So she can go out and be with the, you know, her boss and the senior team just, and she, you know, she pretended she has, is that the point there? It’s not something you are not doing. It’s not something you have to do. It’s why is that conversation taking place there?

Tamsyn: Exactly and where I’ve, where I’ve, where I’ve in the past.

I may have, you know, sort of felt I should. Uh, and I don’t think there’s anything [00:30:00] to do with seniority actually. Um, I, I think it’s, you know, where I’ve stood up and said, actually, I don’t, I don’t particularly want to do that. But I’m very happy to do this or whatever, or to give a different option has worked well for me.

Um, any time that I’ve ever gone down the route of feeling obliged to do something, because someone has told me that I should, you know, play golf, what, whatever. Um, it’s never been a good outcome because your energy is wrong to start with. Like, you feel like you’re getting sucked into something and you become resentful or whatever.

Yeah. It doesn’t work. And. You know, I’ve had other women, certainly within, you know, the business I work in now sort of do, you know, feel like they have to do those things. And my advice is always, you don’t need to do those things. You know, you’re measured by your output in terms of what you do in, in the workplace.

And, and those things probably aren’t as important as you think they are. And actually you just have a better, better opportunity go and do something you wanna do. Go and go paddle boarding, go and have a glass of wine in the pub. Do what, whatever you need to do. But yeah, I, I think that would be my other top tip.

Like if someone tells you you should do something because I [00:31:00] just think, no.

Nicola: Yeah. And that listening, like we’ve talked about intuition, we’ve talked about, you know, just that sense of knowing and that self trust it’s that. Listening to that voice just saying it’s so it’s okay not to do these things. And actually I was running the, a group that I’m running a leadership program for this week.

And there was talk about one particular lady was sharing that she, over the last couple of weeks, it had happened all the normal, but it felt that she’d been really talked over. In a meeting and we talked about, and the language was wrong. Cause it sounded very adversarial. And this isn’t about men versus women.

That’s not the point of, you know, why I’m here and why the podcast exists. But it was almost like at what point does she put her energy into, does she ring one of the particular people and say, oh, dunno if you’re aware, but or does that go to her boss to say in these meetings, this has happened, but also, you know, what’s her.

What’s her next step. What’s something that’s gonna help her to feel empowered versus that it’s, it’s almost that, how do we kind of start to shift culture? So [00:32:00] that doesn’t happen anyway, but also, like I said, it’s not about picking a battles, but almost where do I wanna pick my energy? Actually, I have a good relationship with this person, so I know that I could ring them and tell them, and they, that would probably just change their behavior.

Tamsyn: Hmm. And, and I think, you know, there’s a lot of work that can be done to support teams, you know, leaders at any level in the organization. I think sometimes things happen. Behaviors happen, you see stuff play out because people are really unconscious to it. So I think, you know, the, the need to sort of bring awareness.

To how certain things might, you know, affect others is, is key. Yeah. Uh, and I think, you know, more of that is, is helpful really in terms of just ha having a different perspective, you know, and I would say I’ve had some incredible backers in my career. You know, people that have, have, have championed me and supported me and developed me, and many, many of them have been men, you know, actually more, more so than, than women.

And that, that, that. Just my experience, but I [00:33:00] don’t, you know, think it’s, um, uh, it’s not, it’s not always the women that are championing other women actually, to, to be honest in my experience, I think, um, you know, but I think that any opportunity to help people understand sort of some of the unconsciousness in some of the decision making that they, they maybe operate in is, is

Nicola: helpful.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I was still, I was stuck in. Some of the, uh, research, my white paper, we are talking about with one woman day and she’s actually said, she feels like she’s been more supported through men in her career, but actually probably less supported by women. Mm-hmm yeah. Almost through a sense of, well, how are you doing that when I’m not doing that?

Or almost a sense of, yeah. Well, can you do that now that you have a family and how’s that gonna work? Most the men are like, how are you gonna, how are you gonna deliver. What’s the job shape for you to really succeed in it?

Tamsyn: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think post pandemic as well, there is a different, we are opera, you know, and I know we’re in, we’re still in difficult times, very difficult [00:34:00] times.

Um, but it, people. Coming out the other side of this whole sort of shift, um, the importance of, of being able to be more flexible and balanced and, you know, focusing in on purpose, you know, money’s important and showing up to, to be paid well to do the work that. Is really important, but actually those other things are equally important and people having a real sense of, you know, what’s in it for them other than just the financial benefit.

And I think some of that comes from, you know, feeling like they’re in a safe environment that they can, you know, get that development, get that support, get the. You know sense that their values are aligned to the values of the organization. All of those things are arguably more important now than they ever have been.

Nicola: Mm-hmm . Yeah, absolutely. So if we just, um, just a couple of final questions, one was, I was kind of thinking we were talking. What, if you were within your role from your kind of lived experience, if you were to say there’s a couple of things that organizations should be doing to help more women get [00:35:00] to get to the top and.

Get onto the board and be part of that. C-suite what do you think? What are the couple of things that they could immediately start doing?

Tamsyn: Um, I think there’s some really practical things. I think it depends on the organization that you’re in, but I think, uh, statistically general, you know, and it is a, it’s a sweeping statement, but the, the starts with back.

Caregiving roles, whether that’s looking after children or looking after independence or looking after, you know, 10 to still fall onto the shoulders of women. Yeah. So I think businesses that, you know, we talk, you know, we talk a lot about hybrid working, flexible, working dah, dah, dah, and all of those things are brilliant.

Um, but I still think there’s a lot of businesses out there that are, are still quite reluctant to truly. Truly work out how to do that. Well, so I think there’s a very practical piece about how do you enable women to be able to participate fully in the world of work and provide, you know, adequate [00:36:00] childcare.

Whatever that looks like. Um, I think that that’s, yeah, that’s a, that’s a big one. And, and one that I, I think, you know, we can all do better at, in terms of truly understanding that presenteeism has no place in, in, in a modern world of work. It, it should be about being, you know, measured on impact and deliverables.

Yeah. Um, so I think that would be the first. Yeah, I think the second thing would be providing genuine mentoring opportunities and, you know, seeking to find ways to, to, to generate that inside an organization and not in a tokenism way in a, in a, in a truly well thought through structured, structured, and, and, um, creative way to think about mentoring opportunities to help women, um, achieve.

Their career ambitions really? Or their career aspirations. Yeah, I think those two things would, would be, would be high on my list. And I think the third thing would be, and it depends where you are. I mean, it depends [00:37:00] if you’re operating in a business where you’ve got more female representation, um, across different groups of people, it, it may be less of an issue, but I think where you’ve got a, a genuine lack of representation and some of that could be just about.

Length of service or, you know, a legacy business that may have people sitting in the same roles for a long period of time. Yeah, I think there is the piece about education at a senior level. Particularly if you have a fairly, uh, male dominated board or, or senior leadership team to really understand their part, to play in some of the unconscious bias.

That that, that plays out in organizations. Those three things I think are, are really important. And, and those three things, if you can make progress will have positive impacts on things like your gender pay gap and, um, And the types of measures that we would be looking at, but tho those would be the three things yeah.

Yeah. That I would

Nicola: focusing in on. No, I think those are incredibly powerful. I think, like you said, the practical framework and then that [00:38:00] kind of, that awareness of your, your own behavior and your. What you might not be what you might be bringing without even realizing it. Cuz it’s, it’s not, like I said, it’s not adversarial men versus women.

It’s like, this is where we are. How do we, how do we move forward? It’s not about hating on men, not at all because it’s, it’s more, how do we take where we are and actually go to, how do we get to the next level and how do we just, how do we step forward together? So, yeah, absolutely. And then just a final question.

Just do you feel, are there any particular skills that you think women need to really focus on developing to get to the top?

Tamsyn: I don’t think there are skills that are specific for women. I think the skills that would help anyone be able to build a career would probably be largely the same. I think communication skills impact listening, uh, you know, listening.

Yeah. Truly listening. And, you know, I suppose stereotypically, you might think [00:39:00] those are, you know, things that women might do. You know, better than men, but I don’t, I don’t think that that’s necessarily the case. I think anyone in business is gonna be ultimately measured on commercial success, but I think the best leaders are the leaders that understand that spending more time investing in their.

Quote unquote soft skills, which they’re not soft at all. Yeah. Um,

Nicola: power skills, I think ultimately

Tamsyn: drive out a better bottom line, I think, you know, so I would say those skills would be the same for, for anyone really. Yeah. Um, regardless of, of gender and I think in the current climate and you know, our ability to truly focus on.

Unleashing talent and really tapping into how you develop talent internally. You know, we’re in the middle of a labor crisis that isn’t gonna go away. And that’s not just in, in, in the industry that I work in, it’s across many industries. Yeah. Um, and I think, you know, those are the types of skills that will help build a better talent [00:40:00] platform internally that will help people grow and thrive.

And I think everyone could do with, you know, focusing in that

Nicola: a bit more. There’s almost that top, top down and the cuz I think the culture is so shaped by the board and the leaders and how they show up how they behave and yeah, it kind of flows from there. So if you, if, if you already have that. You’re not fitting with that necessarily.

Yeah. Is that actually, do I, do I want to change that? Or is this not the right culture or actually, do I just stay as say I’m gonna actually show up this a different way.

Tamsyn: Yeah. I’m thinking about where the world is going. You know, I mean, we could stay rooted in, you know, talking about brewing beer for the next another 150 years, but actually, is that where the market’s going?

Well, let’s hope so, but you can brew other things. So I think it’s a piece about. Really being clear about where the world is moving to, whether it’s this industry or another industry, and, you know, focusing in on that, you know, what are the skills and the, the roles that maybe don’t exist now that are gonna exist or have a need for in, you know, 3, [00:41:00] 5, 10 years time only that will come from understanding your talent.

You know what talent you’ve got and, and, and what, and how you can develop that. So I think those are the things that that leader should be focused in on completely. Yeah. Yeah,

Nicola: absolutely. Absolutely. And just finally, for any women in more of a male dominated industry, cause this podcast focused on tech and telecoms, but I thought you were experience in a male dominated environment was really, really relevant.

Is there any, any particular hints and tips for them? Do you.

Tamsyn: Um, I think I, I, I dunno if it’s a tech, I, I can only speak for my own. South. I think authenticity is about sharing up as who you are not being. I think you will not do good work if you feel that you have to be operating out of time all the time.

Yeah. Or you have to act in a certain way or behave in a certain way. You know, etiquette in a, around a board table is gonna be the same, you know, where, where wherever you may be. And [00:42:00] you’ll find yourself in a culture where, you know, there will be cultural norms that, you know, You, you may feel the need to sort of, um, to comply by.

I mean, that’s, that’s the nature of being inside an organization. I think the minute you start to feel that you’ve got to diminish your voice or, or not be, you know, not be bold and brave and show up and share your opinion. You’re in that room for a reason. Like you’re being invited into that room, whether you are walking into a board room or whether you are walking into a meeting or.

And if you are not sure about why you are in that room, then I would really question, you know, whether you need to go back and reflect on that. But I’m a great believer in, you know, earning a seat at the table. And if you’re at that table, you’ve earned it. And therefore you have equity in, in or equality in terms of your, your ability to be able to share a view the same as whoever else sitting around that table.

I suppose the other thing I would say is if you are. Sitting at that table, go, go and find a different table or go and build your own table. And that’s yeah. , you know, that, that we could do a [00:43:00] whole other podcast around that, but absolutely. Um, I think that is key for me as a leader, um, as a, as a female leader, the times that I’ve gotten up and left the table and gone to find a different table at, at the times where I just feel like I don’t have anything more to say here.

And it’s not necessarily because I didn’t feel valued it’s because I just felt. I had something else more important to say, and I needed to go and find a different audience. Yeah. Um, and who perhaps I was more aligned to, and maybe shared some of my values and I’ve been lucky that I’ve been able to do that.

But I think, I think stand, you know, it’s a real cliche of like stand in your power and find the things that really make you feel strong. When you walk into that room, you, you, you are there for a reason. You’ve been invited to that table for a reason. And, you know, be clear about what that is and what you bring and, and be brave in sharing it because.

Because if you don’t, you are missing out on the opportunity to help others also have that same opportunity and it isn’t always easy. And there will be [00:44:00] times when you get frustrated and you will feel, I mean, I might, this is my experience. I have felt my voice has been less heard because I have a female voice or I speak in a certain way or, but actually, you know, my resilience has meant that I’m gonna, I’m gonna keep going.

Um, and I was, I think this comes back to the point earlier about having the right network, you know, whatever that looks like for you, finding your allies, building those internal networks and using your external networks to keep, to keep you going on days when it’s not particularly great. Yeah. Um, but you are there for a reason.

Don’t forget that.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I love that.

Tamsyn: Oh my gosh. That’s so good.

Nicola: Um, and do you have a final

Tamsyn: message for all list? No other than what I probably have already said, really. I just, um, I think life’s too short. We spend a lot of time at work, whether that’s working for an organization or whether you’re working for yourself.

And I think it life’s too short to spend your precious energy. Not [00:45:00] enjoying what you do. And I think you’ve got, you’ve got to find ways to create the right conditions for you to do your best work. And I guess that’s what my point is. You know, if you, if you feel that you are unable to do that, wherever you’re sitting, then get up and go and sit somewhere else because what you have and, and the gifts that you bring and the impact that you have on, on the people around you will be felt positively.

If you allow yourself the sort of opportunity to do that. So yeah. I mean, just, just speak your truth if it’s it’s yours, your, you know yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s why you are sitting

Nicola: there. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. One of the, um, women that I interviewed today for the white paper research and she, how she kind of, um, finished a call was like, if I’m gonna be at work and away from my family and the people that I love, both the world I’m damn well gonna enjoy it and have this huge impact and change the fricking business.

To make it, make it, you know, worthwhile being away from these people that I [00:46:00] love my children. And yeah, I so

Tamsyn: agree with that. And I see, I, I have worked alongside some amazing male leaders who have struggled with that and feel that they have to. Be operating in a certain way and be big and bold, particularly come out of COVID and you just think you’ve gotta enjoy it.

Like nothing. I truly believe that nothing is worth it to be away from your family or to make the amount of commitment that you make. Um, and the time that you spend, you know, I spend more time with my colleagues and I do with my husband and you know, that isn’t, that has to be, that has to be for a.

Outcome. Yeah. Uh, so I totally agree. You spend too much time for it to be anything other than joyful, not joyful every minute, but you know, the balance of, of, of happiness has to be in a positive place. Definitely.

Nicola: Absolutely. Absolutely. And if my listeners wanted to just, um, check you out a bit more, and I know that you’re gonna be sharing more and you’ve got this great voice and just views that were gonna be really, really inspiring, where can they, where [00:47:00] can they find

Tamsyn: you?

The easiest place to find me currently is, is on LinkedIn. So if people just look me out, Tanza Allen, LinkedIn, uh, on LinkedIn, they will find me there. Brilliant. Aw,

Nicola: thank you so much. You’ve been so brilliant today. I really, really appreciate it. And yeah, I’m super excited to see what your, what the next steps are and yeah.

Where you go. So super exciting.

Tamsyn: Thank you.

Nicola: If you love what I have to say, and you like to find out more about working with me, easiest way to do that is to book a, get to know you call. So there’s a link to that in the show notes, I can help you through working with your organization to help close the gender pay gap through women leadership program.

To help empower your women at the top to be more influential, impactful leaders, and really own their leadership identity. Or I can create workshops around confidence around emotional intelligence, creating a career strategy or developing your own leadership identity. [00:48:00] Or I can work one to one or group coach your senior leaders to help them to overcome a very specific problem, or just again, really own their own leadership identity.

Or I can work with you one to one. I do work with a small number of private clients, and you can work with me either on my shorter focus coaching program, where we pick one specific thing and we just really focus in on it and help you to move past it. Or my deep dive find your five VIP program. Which really gets the root cause of what’s holding you back and also helps you to create a very, very clear idea of what you want for the future.

And within that, your leadership identity, the results that I get from clients are as varied as they are brilliant. I’m incredibly proud of them. So some examples, my client being promoted twice within the six months they worked with. Another client being invited to join the board. Another client being offered a brand new role that wasn’t available to anyone else with a big promotion and a big pay [00:49:00] rise and a client that was pushed out of an organization to then being offered three dream roles that they could choose from.

And finally a client that decided that the corporate world wasn’t for her anymore and helping her to re get really, really clear on what she wanted and sell a new company that she’s absolutely in love with. If you are not quite ready to work me yet, that’s absolutely okay. You can download my overwhelmed Onfi guide, which is five simple steps to help you clear your head and help you get back to feeling on fire and take that inspired action and really be that leader that, you know, you can.

Or you can subscribe to my newsletter, which comes out on a Friday, which has the best bits of the week, and also hints and tips, new stats that have come out and things that I’m reading or watching. So that’s a great way to keep in touch and a few quotes. My clients, I can talk about what I do all day. I absolutely love it.

One client said, well, thank you for transformation, who I am now at home and at. It’s who I am meant to be. I can feel it. And that [00:50:00] difference is just incredible. Thank you for what you do, Nick, for another client who just stepped into a new exec director. Her quote was, it felt like I was wearing a coat that didn’t fit.

It was a coat that was new. That didn’t quite fit me, that I didn’t feel that I was good enough for now. I step proudly stand tall and proud of who I am wearing that coat of leadership. I am confident to speak up. I am the right hand woman of the CEO, and I have that coat that just looks great and I feel it fits and I am just incredibly empowered leader.

So thank you so much. So if you are looking to get some help, just to be that most impactful and influential leader or help women in your organization, by closing that gender pay gap. Do Booker get to know you call me all the details of this or in my show notes. I can’t wait to work with you. Um, I thank you for listening.