Nicola: [00:00:00] Hi is Nick. And I am really, really excited today to introduce the new name of the podcast I wanted to pop on and introduce it because it’s a little bit of a, uh, shift back to where I was, but in the most brilliant way. And I, when I was in the corporate world, so I had a 16 year corporate market career and I worked in telecoms and tech companies and I put together I was a go-to market expert for a lot of that.

And then. Um, went into more commercial roles. So I Ram 2 million pound launches for these big tech and telecoms companies. And I loved what lot of what I did that. Then I moved into more of a commercial role. So looking at new product launches, pit the commercials together and my last roles ahead of commercial role.

So it felt very natural that over the last year, as I’ve very much focused on leadership and exec [00:01:00] coaching, I’ve moved naturally into more of a telecoms and a tech focus. Because I know that market. I know the challenges that women in those industry space. I know that you are likely to be the only woman in the room.

I know the more senior you get, the less women that you’ll see around you. I know at the very top, you are not likely to have many female peers. And I know at the early stage of your career, If you are in a role that’s engineering or more technical, again, you are likely to be a lone female voice in a room.

So it felt very natural when I came to the anniversary of the podcast and I wanted to think about the direction was taking to come back to that world. So the podcast is now called. Women at the top of telecoms and tech. So it’s a subtle change, but for me, it’s a really, really important one. If you are not in either of those industries, please don’t worry.

This still applies to you. Absolutely. But this is just to really demonstrate my focus, my commitment, and my [00:02:00] want to make changes in those industries where women are really, really hugely underrepresented. So maybe not so much at the junior levels, but the higher women get and the more they. To that the top table and the more that they are to be the lone voice, the more they are to feel potentially quite lonely, the more they are to feel that they are the only one speaking out on certain subjects.

They are the only ones that are challenging certain behaviors. So this to me is really just a mark and sand. These are the markets that I’m an absolute expert in. These are ways that I can help you. And also I understand your lived experience. I know how you are feeling so that’s my very exciting news.

So just introducing the new name of the podcast, women at the top of telecoms. And tech, and I would love you to keep listening. If you’re not in that industry, everything’s still gonna be super relevant to you if you’re a woman at the top, but I would love you to share the podcast on your socials. I would love you to share an episode with a colleague or peer, if you think it’s useful to them [00:03:00] and something’s relevant, or I would love you to rate and review the podcast as we grow into this new audience.

So thank you so much for listening and thank you for being part of this. Hello, and welcome to the female leaders on fire forecast. Now renamed as women at the top of telecoms and tech I’m here today just to introduce our guests. And today I’m gonna be speaking to Kirsty Baxter, Smith, and Kirsty is someone who, as the title of the episode, why not me?

Someone who’s got to a very senior position within BT, a huge organization, but probably surprised herself by getting there. And not actually having an absolute career plan, that time things not happening for her and someone that didn’t have a very techy background. Didn’t have a degree, didn’t have certain a and yet she’s done it anyway.

So the title today is why not me. And that’s what I would love you to take out today rather than thinking about all the reasons why you [00:04:00] can’t do it, think about the reasons you can do it. And getting past that, should I do it? And just instead getting into that mode of, could I do it and just the step at a time soie is just really brilliantly honest.

She shares some of her lived experiences. She shares her lesson from her career today. Um, and she shares about the time she spot, I would call kind of failed forward and things have actually happened not the time, but on reflection they’ve happened for her rather than to her. And we also get very honest about what organizations can do to really retain women at the top and women that have that potential to get us to the top, because there’s a lot of work in the industry now to help women to get that foot in the door through at young age apprentices and graduate schemes, that’s all done really well.

But it’s great getting that talent in, but how do you keep that talent inspired, motivated? How do you support them essentially through different life stages, whether that’s, um, taking time out to be a mom then [00:05:00] returning to work or later in life going through the menopause. So how do we support women through those different chapters?

How can organizations take this latent talent that they have and really unlock. And keep it within the organization. Um, so that was the focus of our conversation today. And I just absolutely loved even before we started recording I think as I could have talked all day long and yeah, it’s just an absolutely brilliant episode.

I think there’s so many little nuggets of gold there to take away and implement into your own career. Have a listen once then probably listen back with notepad, write a few things down as well. And there’s some things that we refer to that we’re gonna pop into the show notes, like the imposter syndrome article, and then also the book that Kessie mentioned.

So I hope you enjoy today as much. I did. I am a little bit a giddy school girl, excited, speak into Kirsty, cuz it was so, so much of a, just a connection between us. So I hope you really enjoy state and I’ll see you on the next podcast. Thanks so much. Bye. Hello and [00:06:00] welcome to the female leaders on fire podcast, which I think will now have been renamed women at the top of telecoms and tech, because that is my absolute focus and where a lot of energy and support is needed.

And I’m really, really excited today because we are continuing on with our week of interviews with women at the top. And I’m so. Day cause I’ve got Cury Bax to Smith with me today and I’m gonna introduce her just before she introduces herself and we’ve already had like a 10 minute chat. So I don’t think there’s gonna be any, any gaps in the conversation at all today.

I must just calm myself and not get too over excited cuz we already. Bouncing ideas and, um, just experience the sharing experiences. Um, so just to introduce Kirsty before we get today and she introduce herself, um, Kirsty’s been working in mobile telecom’s industry for over 20 years. Um, part of the team delivering several of the UK’s major mobile infrastructure milestones, including 4g and 5g.

Kirsty: So I think when

Nicola: I was in telecoms, we were [00:07:00] just moving into 4g. We were just like, 3g was still. Something that was developing and the edge network, which just coming off the edge network as well. So yeah, absolutely. I understand all of that and all the work that goes into it. Um, she led the team supporting EE the UK’s biggest mobile network during the COVID 19 pandemic and UK lockdowns is now a senior leader with BT helping to build, implement, and support the new mobile cloud core network.

And again, this is all technology that kind of blows my mind that. I would always understand in my jobs enough to have the conversations with engineers, but also just enough so that I kind of understood, but probably not, not any more than needed. Um, she’s passionate about creating opportunities for women in technology, particularly retaining women as a development progress in their careers, supporting them to move into leadership roles and create opportunities for others.

So welcome to show today. Kirsty. I’m really excited. I’m trying to contain myself.

Kirsty: thank you. Hi. Hi Nicola. Thanks so much for having me along. [00:08:00] Very excited to be here, particularly on the anniversary week as well. So I

Nicola: know, I know we’ve done a whole year and we have, I think we’re nearly about 8,000 downloads.

Hopefully by the time we get to anniversary, we’d hit the 10,000 mark. Fantastic. And we’re in 30 countries, which kind of blows my mind. I, but I think, I think the conversation’s gonna flow itself, but could you just, um, the name, the title, the episode today, which gave me goosebumps, which. Getting me really excited is almost, uh, what is, why not me?

Yeah. I think what K shared kind of in her story is almost where she is now. She feels like she’s made it to the top and she’s doing this, this great role, having this really huge impact doing business transformation stuff. She’s probably not your typical. Tech and industry leader. So can you just share a little bit about your story of how you’ve come to be doing?

I got here? Um, yeah. How you got to where you

Kirsty: are today? Yeah, so, um, so I work in, I work in BT, um, managing, [00:09:00] um, the mobile network for EE. So I work in a very busy operations area. It’s really exciting. It’s 24 7. It is technical, but. Logistical operational, all that sort of thing. And so I was saying same to you, Nick.

I can’t believe I’ve got to where I am today. Really? I. Did a levels, but I did arts and humanities went to university, dropped out in my second year. I was doing an English and history degree dropped out. Oh, thanks

Nicola: me.

Kirsty: Yep. well, you probably finished yours and I didn’t. Um, I did, but it

Nicola: was a slog. There was a lot of reading pick off reading for

Kirsty: very long time.

I think I chose badly actually. . I ended up working in a, in a sales office for a manufacturing company. And then from there I got involved. I worked really hard there actually, and I got involved in launching or implementing new software for the company. And then from there ended up being headhunted by the software company was a [00:10:00] support manager for there and then had a bit of.

An interesting moment, where from a life point of view, huge life changes. So I sort of lo I was made redundant. I got divorced. I moved house big change there. So I felt I was going back to the beginning. Again was really fortunate in that I got a job with orange who at the time were the biggest UK mobile phone company, and really have stayed.

I’ve left a couple of times, but have gone back, cuz I love, love working in operations. So, but I’ve ended up working in a very technical area. And I have no technical training at all. So I don’t even have a degree even if it was in English and history. Um, so I am quite passionate about the fact that it’s not just having the technology and, and the expertise in that area.

It’s a lot about behaviors. And, and hard work and luck, I think, I guess as well. Yeah. But the reason I was talking about why not me is I never would’ve thought that I would’ve got [00:11:00] to a senior leadership position. If I look back 20, 25 years to, um, I’m being kind to myself 30 years to when I dropped out my degree.

Um, I, I never would’ve thought I would’ve made it this far and doing a job that I absolutely love, and I’m really passionate. So I’m really fortunate, I think,

Nicola: fortunate, but also you’ve created your journey.

Kirsty: I have, yes. Yeah. I do feel, um, I, I did a piece a few weeks ago about values and personal values and what your brand is.

Yeah. Um, and that really made you reflect on how I’ve got to where I am. Yeah. And I still hope I’ve got some way to go as well. I hope this isn’t it. And it was very, the first one I chose was work hard. I have always worked really hard, but also it’s about networking, having allies, you know, making sure that yeah, you are there for people.

I guess. That’s, what’s made my luck.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It’s almost creating, [00:12:00] creating that environment and yeah. Yeah. Putting in the hard, hard yards when, when needed to really yeah.

Kirsty: Giving into the, I mean, I know we talk a lot about imposter syndrome and I, I think sometimes we talk too much about it, but we do to acknowledge that it, it is there and it’s not giving into that voice that says.

You can’t do this. Why would you be here? Why would they listen to you? Why has anyone got interested? Interesting to say, I thought about it this morning, actually, when I was gonna meet with you. Yeah. What, what have I got that, you know, Nicola’s interested in listening to. Yeah. Um, but it’s about not, not giving in and not listening to that voice.

And just keep going. Absolutely.

Nicola: Absolutely. It’s a really interesting article actually, that I must, um, I must share in the show notes, it was so it’s, it is a lady that was on the BR brown podcaster to lead and she was talking about, it’s a har it’s in the Harvard business review, I think. And almost like, are we creating imposter syndrome?

Yes. By talking about imposter syndrome so much and lying that much more at the door of women who are in [00:13:00] corporate and, and at this hop than men. Yeah. Because you actually look at the stats, there’s a similar. It’s a similar amount of feeling just around my God, who am I to do this? Yeah. But it’s, it’s almost like, are we creating almost like if the brain is an evidence machine, it’s like, well, we talk about women having an imposter syndrome a lot more mm-hmm women then think they have and identify.

Whereas actually, is it not just, almost like your, your brain mechanism of just warning you, that you’re going into something new, that’s gonna take you out your comfort zone. It’s a stretch factor.

Kirsty: Yeah. And if we talk about it, Too much, particularly to younger women and women who are just starting out in their careers.

They’ll look at us and think, well, if somebody, that senior in the leadership team is, is worrying about, then I’ve got no chance. If they’re worried and they’re feeling they’re not worthy, then obviously I’m not either. And so it’s catching. And I think we, we need to try and nip it in the bud. And I also read, I read this fantastic book, which I’m sure you’ve read by John Amichi.

The promises of giants is about, it’s a leadership book. Yeah. And it’s [00:14:00] focused on diversity and inclusion. And he’s saying if we give into, we need to acknowledge that it exists, but if we give into it, we’re doing a disservice to our organization. Because if, if we’re not giving that diverse thought and we’re not pushing ourselves to be at the leadership table, then our organization isn’t gonna benefit either.

So not only are we doing ourselves as a service, but we’re doing it for our company as well, if we’re employed.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. I haven’t read it, but I must look that one up. I know from the work that I do. Yeah. It’s not it’s no, it’s just, I’m. You know, I say I’m a feminist, but I’m a feminist as, and I want everyone to have equal opportunities if you’re great at your job and you’re delivering and you’re making a difference that should create your opportunities, not what gender, however you identify.

That’s what I’m passionate about. And actually the. Whether that’s needs to be around race or background or ethnicity or gender, it should be the way I teach. And coach is help you understand yourself. Like some of the things you talked about, like values, for example, on a different, on a [00:15:00] deeper level than ever before, so that you can show up as yourself so that you can then have that impact.

But none of this anymore is like a nice to have. And actually, if you look at tech and telecoms, um, Putting together a white paper at the moment. And part of it is you, if you, if 50% are up to probably more than that, of your customer base of women, mm-hmm , if you don’t have. That awareness, a very senior level and that voice of the customer experience from a female perspective, or from employee perspective, you have a competitive disadvantage because you’re gonna come, you’re gonna at some point be out of touch with half of your market.

Yeah. So this is no longer, you know, this is no longer, oh, it’s a nice thing. And I can pick something really positive in my gender pay gap report. This is, this is a commercial advantage now, or disadvantage. Yeah. Depending on where you sit within it and that. That increased loyalty, diversity of thinking more creativity, more empathy and vulnerability.

So more of a coaching culture says more openness. [00:16:00] All of these things in our modern world of tech and telecoms is, is so what’s needed now. Yeah. And I

Kirsty: think we’ve got this small window and it’s, it’s closing of opportunity after the pandemic and the lockdowns to try and claw that back for companies and, and employers and women, because I think.

Women took a step backwards. I mean, it’s obvious during the pandemic. And I saw that myself, so I’ve got in technology. My team is mostly men, but the women I saw really struggled in the lockdown because they were the ones who were taking on the mental load. They were doing the homeschooling and the cooking and the cleaning and everything like that.

And most of them were working from the kitchen table whilst their husbands. The office, cuz they had a better paid job or whatever. Yeah. And now that we’re starting to go back to work and to the offices, we really need to grasp the opportunities given by the smart working that we’ve got as we call it in BT, working from home hybrid, working [00:17:00] and change the culture of you have to be in the office all the time.

Because I think we are really, if we are not careful, we’re gonna. That opportunity to give women back and more what we lost during the pandemic. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Cause I think there’s almost a, I’ve had a couple of clients now where they’ve their bosses, just, they, you know, they’re very senior, they’re still delivering.

They adjusted. So work four days a week. One of them, particularly in mine works four days a week from home. She set up all her childcare, her three children around it and with her husband as well. So they can balance out. and she was told a couple of months ago, I want a boss saying, I want to eyeball you in the office.

And she’s like, but why, why haven’t not delivered anything? I’ve, I’ve delivered more than my role. Yeah. This works for me. This works for my family. Um, and she said, that’s actually not the company policy. The company policy is we decided between us and we’ve done that so less is a reason why I’m not gonna rearrange my entire life again.[00:18:00]

Kirsty: I’m really lucky in my role in that we are able to, I mean, BT is obviously trying to get people back in the offices as, as much as we can be, because yeah, there’s an option. We’re missing an opportunity to. You know, collaborate and it’s really important, particularly for the new people to be training and meeting and networking.

That’s really difficult to do over teams or zoom or whatever, but we do have the attitude that make sure you deliver the work and then you can work in whichever way you need to. Yeah. So I’m really fortunate in that way.

Nicola: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I looked at some stats post the pandemic and pre the pandemic.

So gender pay gap was a hundred. Pre the pandemic. So it’s now 136 years. Wow. So we’ve gone back effectively 36 years. So things continue as they are. It won’t be, you know, hopefully if I have children, it won’t be my daughter’s generation. It might be my daughter’s daughters or my daughter’s daughter’s daughters, like three generations down the line.

We might close that gender pay gap, which kind of. Blew my mind of like, why, why, [00:19:00] why is this not more urgency

Kirsty: to this? I think we’re doing a really good job, um, as an industry in, in telco of attracting female talent into grad and. Apprentice schemes. I mean, it’s not great in terms of, I think we still need more women and girls to take on stem subjects in university when they do go to university.

But I think we’re doing much better, but we’ve got a problem coming in 10 years when they want to start a family and we need to be able to retain them and, and show that you can progress into leadership positions. If you have a family, or if you are doing the majority of the childcare or that sort of thing, and, and hybrid working is a really key part of.

Yeah.

Nicola: Um, yeah. So what do you think companies can do to say? Cause I, from what I see, there’s a lot of, there’s a need to almost support women through different life stages. So it’s almost, it feels like there’s a lot of support at that very early stage. Yes. I think there needs to be some more around, like you said, university and [00:20:00] school.

Yeah. I think that’s almost down to like pink toys and blue toys and all that, you know, challenging that as well. Yeah. But then if I, if I look at the organizations I work with. I’m doing some work now, supporting companies around coaching support for women who are going through the menopause or, or about to, and also women returning from work.

So just so that they can have a place that they can share the frustrations or actually the returners to work is beyond women. That are coming back after maternity. It’s like if a man’s been off as well for paternity, or if someone’s been off as a carer or, you know, just an extended period. So there’s that collective kind of experience of returning to work.

And it’s not, you know, we’re not separating out women. Cause I think sometimes the good intention is almost we separate women out more by a women’s network and it’s been really. Brilliant to seeing some companies I work with now, almost that progression to let’s call this gender equality group mm-hmm and men and women are invited.

If you wanna talk about these [00:21:00] type of

Kirsty: subjects, really interesting. You say that I was very anti women in technology. Yeah. Until. Until quite recently actually until just before, well, during the pandemic, when I saw the huge inequality. Yeah. So I do believe in, I know gender equality is really important and I’m part of the gender equality network at BT.

But I think that we also need to focus on women in tech as well. So I I’ve had complete. 180, if you like turn and my thinking about that. Yeah, because I think that somebody put it this morning, I was talking to a male colleague this morning about retention and he said, women always get put at the bottom of the pile just as we think we’re pulling them up, their agenda.

Something will happen in the world. Yeah. That, that takes precedence quite rightly and lot of the time. And then we get dropped to the bottom again. And why is that? When we are 50% of the population or 51%, but I’m not answering your question, which was what? Sorry, retention. Sorry.

Nicola: I’m rambling. Yeah. Just what do you think of the challenges?

So if I, if I think of the work that I do, how I can help with my business [00:22:00] is almost. I’d love to be working with an organization to almost like, right. Let’s create a complete, um, set of programs that helps at every stage. Yeah. Because it’s a life journey that we go through. That is so there’s very clear chapters mm-hmm so how do we support women with those different chapters, but what do you think organizations can do around retention?

So many things, but you said there’s that great work. Getting women in. That’s brilliant, but if you’re not retaining the talent, you’re kind of, you’re still losing that recruitment cost. You’re still losing that wealth of knowledge and that, you know, that different perspective.

Kirsty: There’s lots of things. I think the, the two key things are role models.

So we, the first one, we don’t have enough female role models in leadership. Yeah. And, and I think senior leadership teams still recruit what they know. Rather than looking for diversity of thought. We talk a lot about diversity of thought, but I don’t see enough action and I’m I’m as guilty. And I think people are, [00:23:00] you tend to recruit who you know, or what, you know, or people who’ve got the same sense of humor or whatever.

They might not look the same, but fundamentally they’re same. So I think we need senior leaders need to be looking at that far more. And then there needs to be an appreciation, particularly in big companies, big corporations that we don’t have a one size fits all policy. So, as you said, you’ve got different stages of life for, for all genders and you might need flexible working at one time.

You might need to, you know, women might need to work. During turn time and then perhaps have more time off during the holidays or compressed hours or whatever. Yeah. And it’s really difficult when you’re creating policies. I know when you’re in HR for a company of what, over a hundred thousand people , but, but we really need to be thinking in a different way that each individual is different.

Yeah. Um, and the, the realistic way of doing that would be to give more empowerment to the line managers mm-hmm so they’re not necessarily [00:24:00] constrained. They’re working within a F. They’re giving the best, um, view of a policy or whatever, or the company policy, but they’re able to make decisions for their team.

They know their team best. Yes. They know who can, and can’t work from home. Who can, who needs compressed hours or flexible working or whatever. And I don’t think we give enough. Into the people managers themselves. Yeah. That’s a sort of realistic way of looking at it, I think. But really it needs to come from the top.

Yeah. And it needs people like me saying, Hey, we need to change this. Yeah. Which I’m trying to do. Um, and, and I’m listened to, I think BT are quite supportive, but we have quite a long way to go.

Nicola: Yeah. Yeah, but you’re, you are on a journey and

Kirsty: yes, we’ve moved more in the last three years than we have done in the last 20 years in the right direction.

Yeah. So, and I think

Nicola: once it’s momentum and once it results from it, I think that’s where it gets really exciting around it’s, [00:25:00] you know, you make an investment of time, money, and effort to see that come. And, you know, get a good return on not just return investment, but return on this is the path that we’re on.

Yeah. It’s starting to shift things. It gets that momentum. Yeah. And I love going into organizations so that, you know, earlier part of the journey, and then we start to do things and start to put in embrace practices or policies and all that, you know, the good structure that then creates some momentum and it just raises that awareness as well across everyone.

But then there’s almost the appetite for it develops further then. And the momentum’s

Kirsty: there. I was in a fantastic, took part in a fantastic leadership mentoring program last week, run by a charity called the Alito foundation. And part of the week was that they, these, these groups of young people, men and women had to pitch an idea to BT, um, to grow their, what they set out in their manifesto.

And so this particular team looked at inclusivity and they came up [00:26:00] with. A policy or a yes, a policy or a program that leadership people can share can job share. So they’ve made it a formal part or, or they would propose make it a formal part of BTS policy that you would look to job share at, you know, very senior positions.

Which sounds so obvious, doesn’t it? Yeah. But I’ve never heard of that and that, even that idea before. Um, so we’re definitely gonna be looking at that,

Nicola: I think. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it was interesting to see actually the new, um, co CEO of marks and Spencer’s is effectively not a job share, but she’s on four days a week.

Yeah. Um, is really heartening to see and just see, yeah. The how important it’s to her. Even though she’s in that obviously that huge position in a, you know, such a known, um, company, but that’s still a boundary to her.

Kirsty: And probably you she’d be working eight days a week as most women do, who work from best.

Yeah. Probably for part time or whatever. Yeah. But yeah.

Nicola: Yeah. [00:27:00] Or just not to be contacted, not to book anything, whether, whether, you know, the boundary around whether she does the work or not is probably a different thing. Yeah. But, um, we interviewed. I interviewed, um, a couple called the job share power. And I said, you, this interview for you to have listened to, and that was all around.

They were HR directors that both had children at very similar times, and they both wanted to go back to work, but not full time. Um, and they actually went with a business case around why, why is it better for you to have two of us in three days a week, each. So it’s an overlap day. So you have different thinking so that we’re both always a hundred percent in like there’s no off days.

And if someone’s coming and they’ve blasted through the first three days a week, and then we have our handover, I’m, I’m gonna carry that on for the rest of the week. And why actually that, you know, that slight difference in obviously is a bit more of an investment. You get effectively too two minds, you get two sets of energy, you get two lots of network and what they know and expertise and knowledge.

Kirsty: It’s a great, it is a great idea. And I said so [00:28:00] obvious, wouldn’t it be great if we lived in a world where you didn’t have to go make a business case for that? Yeah.

Nicola: Where? Well, they, they were the first in their company that then it opened the doors to actually can other roles fantastic. Can, must be appli to other roles as well.

So can we just, um, can we just go back to your story for a minute? Cause I loved, I loved that you didn’t, you’ve not had that typical journey to where you are. Yeah. Can you just say something about where you’ve, what I called failed forward and. You started on something and it’s not quite worked out the way you wanted, but actually, cause I think sometimes as women we can take that failure.

Very, very, you know what? We perceive a failure at that moment. Really hard. Yes. What did you kind of take from those? This is where I think I’m going, but it actually worked out didn’t work out in the way that you thought it would.

Kirsty: Um, I think probably. The, the key example of that was when I, I mentioned that I, I was made redundant.

So, um, when I was in my early thirties, I was working for a soft global software company managing their support team. [00:29:00] And I really thought I’d made it then, cause I was managing a large team. Um, and within the space of six months, I was made redundant and I got divorced and ended up. So I was a single parent and I ended up moving from London to Somerset to be near my family, to have the support, which I was very fortunate about.

Yeah. Um, and, and I really thought. Oh, I thought this is it. This is my, you know, I managed to get my career back on track after failing my degree or dropping out. And so I, as I said, I was fortunate. Well say I was fortunate. I worked hard to get that job in orange that I mentioned. So I did a lot of networking and had a very strong CB and so on.

Um, so thought great, ready to go. And then I was managing a very technical team who were supporting oranges first website. So it was in the early days of eCommerce. Yeah. And, and I didn’t even know what a firewall was on the first day I had to. Yeah. I can remember having my brother who worked in it and say, what’s a firewall.

I’m managing the team that [00:30:00] supports the firewalls for orange . Um, so that was, again, that was another moment I thought, what am I doing here? And I was really fortunate and I met somebody in my team, a woman who recognized the rabbit in the headlights. I think that I was, and so took the time out to, to teach me.

And I, and I learned very quickly. I had to, and I was very much there for the team at the time as well. And that’s one thing I wanted to touch on. When we talk about women in leadership and retaining women, having allies there is so important. I think I wouldn’t have been able to get where I am today without I’ve had an ally at every point, if you like somebody there who’s a cheerleader or is there to speak for me when I’m not in the room.

And that really. So she taught me everything I needed to know, I think at the time. Yeah. And then from there I was flying. So. I guess that’s an example of failing forward all the time. It felt like an absolute crisis, [00:31:00] but looking back, it, it was a turning point in my life. I mean, I would say being made at, under, at that point was the best thing that had ever happened to me.

Yeah. Um,

Nicola: was really, yeah. And the, the iron isn’t it of in the moment is so hard and you think. You’re in that quite a dark place. But actually I, if I, similarly, if I think back to, I was probably at the height of my career when I was going through a divorce and I was this smiling kind of depressive kind of, no, I’m fine.

It’s all fine. It’s I’m managing it. Don’t worry. But inside just so hard. And actually what came out of that was then. You know, really a lot of self-reflection about what do I want for my life now that I’m on my own. I’ve been in a relationship for 13 years and out of that came actually wanna train retrain as a personal trainer that then went down this whole route that 10 years later has led me to not only do I know what I wanna do when I grow up, I’m actually doing it.

Yeah. But in the moment that is so hard when you are kind of caught in those darkness to then see the light that comes from it

Kirsty: eventually. Yeah. And I don’t [00:32:00] think I’ve managed to, to get that. I mean, I think it’s, it’s easier when you are experienced and you, my age, you can say, okay, you’re going through a difficult time, but life has taught you that generally it works out and you can learn from this, but when you’re really going through it, it’s very hard to say, Hey, I’m gonna look at this as a learning experience.

I I’m fairly thought with respect site. Really?

Nicola: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So just. Female, well kind of having allies. Mm. Just say more about what that means. Cuz I think there’s two parts in there is having allies, but also being an ally and yes, it’s almost like beyond gender, how you identify, it’s just like.

Someone needs some additional help support or some of my time or expertise. Yeah. I could do that. So why wouldn’t I do that? Yeah.

Kirsty: And you can be an ally just by having a cup of coffee with somebody, or just picking up the phone to check that they’re okay. Yeah. So I’ve been really fortunate in that. Um, and they’ve all been women.

All of my major allies, I [00:33:00] have to say, I have had a series of allies through my career who have been there. To listen to me Mo on almost like a therapist or, or giving me a step up. So when I mentioned, when I was working in a sales office and I got this job implementing the new software, um, it was one of the few women.

Cause I worked for a manufacturing company in the office who gave me that leg up. They, she saw that I was bright and I worked hard. She asked me to get involved. And then as I said, when I went to orange and this engineer and my team helped me as well. And then. After that I was really fortunate to work for a lady who now is very senior in, in, um, photo phone.

Um, and she, I worked in the most gender diverse organization I’ve ever worked in and her team as well. So just by the nature of being in her team and working with many strong women that really helped as well. And, and now I think my allies are my peers. Yeah. In terms of female allies, [00:34:00] which probably shows the lack of female leadership maybe, but, um, yes, I, again, I’ve got a number of allies and I’d always, it was only recently that I really reflected on that’s what’s been really key to my success, um, is the existence of allies.

And then I looked at myself and I thought, have I been an ally people? Probably not as much as I would like to have been. Yeah. But I, I probably have been as well, but more from the point of view, It just being quite informal. So as I said, being there for somebody, yeah. Having a coffee or looking at a job and saying, Hey, I think you can do that.

Yeah. Um, and really helping to push somebody to show that it could, it could be you, you know, you can get involved, you can apply for that job. I mean, you probably have the same, but I spend a lot of my time. Talking to women. Yeah. Say you can apply for that job. Why, why not? You, you know, the stats that women generally don’t apply for a job, unless they’ve got 90%

Nicola: of the skills.

Yeah. Men of what? 60%, [00:35:00] 30%, you know, are take a punt

Kirsty: on it wing. It’ll be fine. Yeah. Um, and so I spend a lot of my. So informal mentoring or coaching on going through a job description or going through a TV or going through somebody’s experience and saying, yes, you can do that. I think we need more of that.

And that for me is the formal part of being an ally is saying, yes, you can do this.

Nicola: Yeah, no, definitely. And I speak to. I speak to women about, I don’t like the word, but net networking, but networking in a really feel good, positive way and almost creating, I think you said it in your brand when you’re talking about your brand identity, but what do you want people to say about you when you’re not in the room?

Yes. Yeah. Therefore, how do you, how do you consciously curate that and your values? How do you show up your values? So they’re recognized in you. Yeah, but the, the networking, it’s almost, I see a lot of women that I work with that are incredible at their job. They over deliver probably, and their job role grows, but it’s not always recognized [00:36:00] formally mm-hmm , but they don’t necessarily do the part where they.

What for one of a better term kind of self-promoting and building that network of allies and being an ally because they’re so busy doing to demonstrate through continuous delivery yeah. Um, because that’s, you know, men are recognized for potential, whereas women are recognized for progress and constant delivery.

It’s just that different almost assessment of. I actually think this guy could do a lot more or actually this woman is doing it, but she keeps, it’s almost like that. Keep having to prove versus we see the potential in you

Kirsty: and networking. Is it sounds so clunky. Doesn’t it?

Nicola: It sounds, sounds like a very old term.

Doesn’t

Kirsty: it? Yeah. Networking, but actually networking with, with other women is so easy when you take that step and you just say fancy getting a coffee with somebody you’ve only just met. It, I find it so much easier and more rewarding. I have to say than when, when I network [00:37:00] with men, a lot of them think, what do you want?

Yes. You know, what do, what do you want out this conversation? Whereas women will just take it as face value. It’s just somebody connecting with someone else. Yeah. Um, so I think we could definitely do more

of

Nicola: that. Yeah, definitely. And the other thing that I’ve, um, really noticed about women is that that lack of.

Wanting to promote the great stuff that they’re doing and tell others people and share it more and share at the team meeting, share it on the, you know, just talk about don’t just do those great things. Tell people you’re doing the great things. Yeah. Yeah. It’s almost that, that conscious self promotion of, well, you know, this is what my team have just delivered, or this is something we’ve done.

We’ve changed. We’ve saved money or we’ve delivered this and yeah. Yeah. Those sort of things. And that, why, why do you think there’s that kind of reticence to. That. Yeah. What term again? Self-promotion I think it comes

Kirsty: down to, we don’t think we, I mean, this is a massive overgeneralization, but women generally think don’t [00:38:00] think they deserve to be there, or they can’t believe that they’re there.

So don’t bring attention to yourself, you know? And so it’s definitely that. And women tend to. they deliver, as you said, and they base their value on the results rather than what they say. Yeah. So there’s a lot of when we, when we talk about self-promoting in our internal sort of social media networks at work, men are so good at just saying, Hey, look what my team did.

Isn’t this great. Yeah. And, and women aren’t women. Aren’t great. So I do think there is a bit of, oh, look, they’re doing it again. They’re promoting again. You don’t wanna be seen to be like that, but if we don’t do it. Then who’s gonna know that we’re there, who’s gonna know that what we’ve achieved or what our teams have achieved and so on.

So I think we just need to bite the bullet and get on with it and do more self promoting. Definitely. I certainly don’t do enough. Um, I do find easier to promote my team rather than me. Yeah. And I, that’s the way I self promote, I guess, cuz I’m judged on the results of my team, which I think is [00:39:00] fine, but I could probably better at promoting myself.

Definitely. Yeah,

Nicola: absolutely. And I don’t think it needs to be sleazy or uncomfortable. It’s just like you said, if you’ve got this great team and they’re delivering, just tell people yeah and you here now we’re here. What, you know, what a great quarter year we’ve had and,

Kirsty: and it’s doing more things like this.

You know, talking to you on your podcast or, or writing something in a piece or going to a conference and speaking at a conference is we can all do this. There are so few of us women in technology that I bet we could just bank. We could do it all the time. You could. Yeah. That could be your job. Couldn’t it, exactly time talking about it.

So it is difficult. I’ve just been, I’ve just finished an excellent course actually about using LinkedIn. Because I hated LinkedIn until about a year ago actually. And I felt it was just about self-promotion or trying to get a job. Um, so I did a, a 30 day social club. It was called, um, which twice a [00:40:00] week we would meet, we do exercises about how to create a meaningful post on LinkedIn or whatever Twitter or whatever you want.

Yeah. Love. It was so useful. So everybody look up 30 day, social media, social social club, it’s

Nicola: called we’ll pop up. We’ll pop a link, cuz like you said, if we can have more women sharing what they’re doing or sharing a relevant post or commenting on something. Yeah. And actually I am for the interviews I made my absolute wishlist and you were definitely on there, but there was also then Karen Brady, people like that.

And I, I went to CEO of Viva. Um, wow. And she’s recently had comments around you are not the right man for the job. At their co at their, um, chairman’s meeting. And it was unbelievable the environment, it happened in the level of people that were saying that and how they were so open. Mm. And just her comeback and her response was, so it was so emotional.

There’s obviously emotional reaction there for her. But she’d almost got past the emotional reaction and then gone into, what can I say, that’s gonna help [00:41:00] this. Yeah. And she was saying, you know, it’s disappointing to still see this, but actually this is part of what we need to change is part of what I’m here to drive change of.

Um, and you know, if my story can help others, that’s absolutely. Okay. Yeah. And just to hear her comments and I actually got. We, I didn’t expect a reply. I was like, I’m just gonna do it. I’ll get over myself like self promote. Yeah. I’m gonna get over myself, get past my imposter. Who am I to ask her? And I just got a really love response saying I I’ve noted Daniel podcast, unfortunately really busy at the moment with end of year and just everything that we’re doing, trying to balance family through the summer, but keep doing what you’re doing and I’ve noted down the name for future reference.

Fantastic. And, you know, almost that getting past myself, ironically, is someone that helps women do that to what’s the worst can happen. I’ll get no reply or I might get a no.

Kirsty: Yeah. Women helping other women is so powerful. And, and I think we probably don’t do enough. We don’t realize our power yeah. As, as women at [00:42:00] work, um, and how we could help somebody else.

I, I did, um, as part of international women’s day, a little talk about my career and everything. And I’d said at the end of it, if you think, if you just think now to spend five seconds down, thinking about a woman that you’ve met recently, you could reach out to and have a coffee. You could be her ally and you are the one who’s giving her the step up in her future career.

And that would be amazing. If you were mentioned in her career story or career journey as somebody you helped. I think that I’d love to be that person to somebody else. So I’m sure

Nicola: you will be. You probably already have been at some point, so hope so. Yeah. But I think it’s important as well. What you say about women also being role models?

Yeah. So it’s. And I loved, uh, was reading about your values as well. Almost like to role model you to go for that process and knowing your values is one of the biggest things I teach and coach it’s the heart of your leadership identity. It needs to be to show up. It’s almost beyond authentic. This is who I am.

This is what I’m passionate about is what I believe in. [00:43:00] It’s what I stand for and stand against that actually showing up with those values is then you are, you are real, you are true. And that is when you’re gonna have most. Cause you’re not trying to second guess or fit in. And just, I think for women to realize as they move up, they not only have responsibilities themselves and their family and their teams, but they also have a responsibility across the organization to be a role model.

Yeah. For the sort of women that you want at the top, that’s making an impact. That’s probably going beyond their role and having more of an influence across the company.

Kirsty: Yeah. And we all have. I think as women, particularly women in senior leadership positions, we all have responsibility to go over and above the job to do that.

I’m only just getting that. I’ll be honest. So I’m making myself out to be a Saint. Absolutely not is only recently that I thought, oh, I’m in a position where I could actually help people. And that’s really looking at some of the work from. From my peers. So I know that you, uh, you’ve met Sarah Jones in our organization.

Yeah. Who is a huge role model for me, who, who does a lot of [00:44:00] that. And I think we should all do more of that. There aren’t enough role models, I think. And, and you talking about values. I would encourage anybody looking to move into leadership to think very hard about what your values are. Yeah. I know you said you, you spent a lot of time coaching on that.

The times where I’ve been unhappy in my, my work and my career. Hasn’t all been plain sailing have been the times I’ve been happy have been when my values haven’t fitted with the job that I’m doing. Yeah. Or the culture that I’m working in. So it’s exhausting when you’re working somewhere that butts up against your values.

So it’s really important, I think, as a woman or a man or whatever, gender, but particularly as women. We’ve got all the other stuff to do a lot of the time, as well as our jobs. It’s really important that you get that right?

Nicola: Absolutely. Absolutely. And what we do is, um, I’ve got a great worksheet to work through, so I’ll pop that into show notes.

Cause that’s, I think that’s so important. And just to fi kind of fi off, cause I think I, I could just talk to your day. What do you think are the biggest lessons [00:45:00] from your story and getting to where you are now? If, if someone’s listening to this and thinking. Why me almost questioning rather than the why not me, that slight change in emphasis.

What do you think are your biggest lessons?

Kirsty: So the first question is why not me? Mm that’s. What you’d ask yourself. And I think, unless you are really struggling with your, uh, you know, with anxiety or whatever, I think you’d always have an answer. Well, of course I can do it because I’ve got this, this and this.

So always ask you your question, ask yourself that question. Definitely. I’ve mentioned this several times. Work really hard. You know, work harder on your own terms yeah. Than your peers, because that’s, what’s got me noticed in the past, but the flip side of that is make sure you get your work life balance, right?

Yeah. So I was a single parent for a while, have since remarried, but I’ve, I’ve always been the one who’s been career driven in my family and my son left to go to university, um, when he [00:46:00] was 18, 19, and I thought I spent. Most of his childhood on a conference call or in a meeting, I I’ve had Christmas dinners at my desk and, and that sort of thing whilst I’ve been working and that’s a huge regret of mine.

So I would say to anybody starting out, who wants a family, make sure you set those ground rules really strongly at the beginning. I know it’s easy said and done. Yeah. Um, and a lot of that is done through. Making sure you’ve got the right relationship with your boss or with your company. And if the values don’t fit, then maybe it’s time to look for something else.

Yeah. So work hard, but on your turn. Yeah.

Nicola: No, I love that. So, yeah, and almost if you set those boundaries set, what you are willing to do and not do very, very clearly that that is you are gonna be in the moment energized and you’re gonna be looking after yourself. So the first bit of work I do when I work with clients is always.

Let’s set you up with what I call feel good foundations for, then you as a leader, that’s your leadership oxygen mask. Yeah. Not your best leader when you’re exhausted, when you’re distracted, when there’s too much going on. [00:47:00] No true.

Kirsty: So, yeah, and I think the first thing, and I’ve not always done this as well as like, it’s probably your regret of mine.

Get yourself a coach or a mentor, which I know is gonna be music to . Yay. Big cheer . But um, I think I’ve had a lot of informal coaching and informal mentors. It’s only recently. Is become a bit more formal, but I would say every woman wanting to get into wanting to progress needs that even if it’s just somebody who’s a, a cheerleader coach, who’s given you the time getting you to think differently.

I know there’s difference in coaching and mentoring. I would say if you had to choose. I don’t know, I’d go for a coach and then have somebody who’s a role model if you like as well. Yeah. But that would be the third thing I would say.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Is that time and space, isn’t it away from the, we’ve talked about how women tend to over deliver and, and then can get, potentially get lost in overthinking.

It’s that? Yeah. The biggest thing I give these brilliant women back is time and space to think, to feel to what’s going on. Yeah. Get that [00:48:00] clarity to then re-energize and go again. Yeah.

Kirsty: So we did a, we recently did a leadership, a coaching and leadership program at BT. And the best thing I got out of it was the hour and a half each week.

Where I wasn’t doing my job, that it was just for me. Yeah. And, and the group that I was in, cause we had little groups of coaches. It’s so important to have that quiet time. Yeah. Away from your job.

Nicola: Yeah. Especially as you become, you know, go further and further up the ladder. You’re not the self see delivery.

They’re always gonna be that, but you tend to be more delivering for your team. So again, when I work with clients in the feel good foundations, like what does your diary need to look like? How do we move you from being in the day to day and delivery and into having time to think, to strategize, to just, you know, work on problems and solutions and just be there to support your team rather than just delivery.

Yeah.

Kirsty: Um, and if you get into those habits early, Then when things really do get difficult. So for example, I’m, [00:49:00] I’m going through para menopause at the moment. Yeah. And having time to focus and think this becomes increasingly difficult. You’ll have that set up. Ready to go. Yeah. When you do need it. Yeah,

Nicola: absolutely.

Absolutely. Um, and finally, we’ve talked probably a lot about what women can do for themselves and creating allies and knowing your values, but for organizations. Cause I, I. We said before we’ve started recording today. I work with these incredible women and I help them fulfill their potential and more.

And I love that, but there’s also the bit of work that I think I want to do more of. And I think will have as much, if not more impact is almost looking at the, the culture. Yeah. And how does that change darling at the very, very top. So. Women being talked over in meetings, are there slight assumptions made that actually, if a woman goes on maternity and comes back, she won’t be as motivated.

Mm-hmm like you said, about job sharing. How do we how’s that done at a very senior level? What else do you think organizations can do to help, you know, the challenge that you articulate so well [00:50:00] around that retention that actually we need to support women through those life stages rather than just, you know, get them in the door is great, but let’s how do we help them progress?

Kirsty: They need to, they need to role model this. So there’s a lot of talk about female equality and gender equality and so on. But if you look at the majority of leadership teams, they are mostly men and mostly white men. And I don’t believe it’s impossible to find the right women for the position. There’s a lot of us out there.

So I do think it starts with the leadership team, but we also need to show them. That we’re out here, so we need to speak up and we need to show the ambition. And I mean, there’s a, that’s a whole other podcast, isn’t it asking for negotiating for a pay increase or whatever. Yeah. Um, but we need to do more of that.

So I think that’s probably the key thing. It really starts from the top that they need to show that they, they are and, and BTR starting to do this. Right. So I’m definitely not. Um, they put a lot of work into this now. Yeah. Um, we should see it from other [00:51:00] organizations as well. Yeah. So that’s probably the key thing is show that it can be done

Nicola: at the top.

Love that. I love that. Absolutely. Absolutely finding any final messages for our audience today.

Kirsty: Well, as I said, we, I never thought. I could do this. I never thought I would be in this position and I still got some way to go. So it sounds trite, but really believe in yourself. In fact, think big, I went to a, a talk by really inspirational guy called, um, que Lisa, um, last week.

And he was saying he had an epiphany at, in his early thirties. He’d decided where he wanted to be or the sort of person he wanted to be in 20 or 30 years, which if you can do that fantastic. But. Think big. Think that it, it should be you not, could it be you? So I would just, yeah, just have belief in yourself.

I know it’s easy, but if you get the right coaching support, the right allies, you working for an organization that aligns with your values, [00:52:00] then happy day is your set and it’s down to you to try and yeah. Move

Nicola: forward. Yeah. Almost. You’ve got. That great environment it’s down to you to make the most of it.

Yes. If the environment’s wrong, that’s, that’s a whole different conversation. Yeah, please.

Kirsty: And, and you can change it or you don’t look for an environment that’s

Nicola: right. Exactly. Exactly. Well, thank you so much. And given your LinkedIn new focus and approach, kinda where can people find you obviously on

Kirsty: LinkedIn?

Yes. I well, Kirsty Bax, the Smith. I think I’m the only one there actually on LinkedIn. So, um, have a look there. That’s the place

Nicola: for me. Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. And thank you so much for your time today. It’s just been an absolute gold, um, conversation. I’m so, so delighted. So thank you so much.

Kirsty: Thanks Nicola.

Nicola: Hi, it’s Nick here. I just wanna take a moment just to say thank you for listening. When I’m sat recording a podcast in the deepest steps of Cornal, it’s incredible to think that is reaching women across the world in 30 [00:53:00] different countries. And we have thousands of downloads a month. So thank you so much for being part of that.

And being part of the audience means a world to me, but I do want to grow this audience. I would love you to help me reach more women. Like you. So that we can really drive positive change in the corporate world. So you can do that one of three. First of all, you can subscribe to the podcast. You never miss an episode.

It’s always a new episode. It’s always delivered straight to your inbox. You can review the podcast and leave us of rating. And the more ratings we have, we also go up in the podcast charts. And finally, you can just share a favorite podcast with a peer, with a colleague or on your social media. So I would love you to do that.

Thank you for all your help. Um, I can’t wait for what’s next.