Nicola: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the female leaders on fire podcast. Um, I’m gonna start to not use that name anymore because we are now officially renamed as women at the top of telecoms and tech. I’m your. I’m Cola, Beckley. I am the coach working with women at the very top of organizations and aspiring future leaders, helping them to find their fire.

So that passion, that purpose, that excitement, so they can have more impact, more influence and drive positive change in organizations. And I am here today. Um, just with a quick introduction to today’s guest and today’s guest is Victoria Bond and she’s the founder of space, HR, and we are gonna be talking.

All about super charging your leadership with employee feed. I’m really understanding the lived experience for your employees, [00:01:00] understanding how they’re feeling and what’s going on for them, how to make it easy for them to create, uh, give feedback and create a culture of feedback and how the understanding actually brings out the best.

In employees, but also in leaders. So today’s conversation is a really great one. Victoria is just, I love how her passion for what she does really comes across. I love how she has a very practical understanding of how to encourage and create and have frameworks of feedback that makes things much simpler.

And I really love just her positive energy around this, and she’s doing some really great things in the world. So, um, really, I think this episode for anyone, who’s a leader who feels maybe that they’re a little bit scared of employee feedback. They’re a little bit worried about what might be said. Maybe take it personally, or as criticism.

This is really a conversation that highlights why it’s important, how to create that feedback, what to do with it, how to [00:02:00] create that culture of actually, this is a perfectly natural part of the process and that higher engagement needs to higher performing teams. And that helps you to deliver as a leader.

On the company wide objectives and really hit that strategy. So I’m super excited today. This is a great one. I hope you really enjoy the show. If you do have any comments or questions, just drop me an email or my contact details on the show notes. Enjoy the show. Bye today. I am very, very excited cause I have a brilliant guest here today, a guest that I managed to lose her, uh, bio four, but I’ve got it back in front of me now.

So I’m gonna introduce her first and then she’s gonna introduce herself. So today I’ve got the brilliant Victoria Bond with me. I’m pretty sure we are gonna just talk each other to death through this as well. So you might need to pause at that point as well. um, so just to introduce Victoria, just before we get chatting, so Victoria’s the founder of space, HR.

And employee feedback and engagement business, and her and her team have built a new style of [00:03:00] employee engagement approach and put employee feedback at the heart of the business. That just my gosh, that pulls at my heart strings, cuz that’s so what is needed? Um, so Victoria has over 15 years experience working in senior HR roles.

Within high growth and ambitious businesses. And she’s specialized in helping startups and companies with high growth ambitions, reach their potential. Having worked in various industries and headed up of high volume M and a team. She is passionate about business success. And today we are gonna talking all about just really super charging your leadership with employee feedback, which I love.

I love this title. So welcome to the show,

Victoria: Victoria. Good to have you. Thank you very much. Thanks.

Nicola: You’re so welcome. We’ve all, we’ve already gone all around the houses, talking about weddings and all sorts of things. So yes, we’re, we’re just getting warmed up. Yeah, exactly. We were just getting warmed up for the show.

So, so can you just, um, I was saying earlier, I actually had a client ask me about this this week cuz she’s um, A senior HR role in [00:04:00] her business. And she was asked by her CEO to start creating some frameworks around kind of feedback. And that’s obviously really important then to employ engagement for me as a coach, what I work with some organizations on is helping them with.

Creating more of a coaching culture, so that feedback’s more instant, more in the moment rather than heaven forbid, we get to the end of year review and you’re getting feedback on stuff nine months ago that you don’t really remember that

Victoria: you’re then really defensive about yeah. Your ouch,

Nicola: all that kind of stuff.

Like really did I do that? So I think today’s show is just gonna be incredibly, incredibly useful, but can you just start off just by sharing a little bit about how you came to be doing this work now focused on that, that getting engagement and the employee

Victoria: feedback? Yeah, of course. So I’ve had. Scar long career in HR and, um, and uh, mainly in generalist HR roles actually.

And the, the very kind of last role that I did, particularly before I jumped into self-employment and [00:05:00] setting up space, HR was, uh, mergers and acquisitions role. And in there it’s really that. Kind of engagement is really intense. You know, it really, really matters that hearts and minds, it can be the difference between a successful acquisition and a failure.

So when I set up my own business and I kind of took the leap, the leap of faith during, uh, off the back of maternity leave during lockdown in a pandemic, um, I obviously perfect timing, obviously. Yeah. Perfect timing ever. The optimist, I always thought it. You know, oh, it all blow over soon. Anyway, , that’s a whole D ,

Nicola: that’s a whole different story.

I was like, oh, it’s just like gonna be a few weeks and then, you know, be fine. Yeah, it’s fine. It’ll just,

Victoria: it’s a whole nother show. Um, so when I saw space HR, I knew that employee engagement was the work that I needed to do. It’s a work that I’d always. You know, lit me up during my career and kind of, you know, made my heart sing and got a team who’ve helped to [00:06:00] build this incredible technology that helps us to capture, uh, particularly anonymous feedback.

So forgive me one, we’re talking about feedback and quite biased around anonymous feedback. I’ve believed that’s really powerful. Yeah. That’s, you know, the, the center of, of our, um, of our work, but actually I’ll try and talk about all, all different kinds of feedback, but sometimes I kind of default to that if you like.

Yeah. So, yeah, but it, you know, I think, oh, it’s just, it’s just so important. I, I honestly think that if you don’t have feedback mechanisms in place in your business and you are, or, or for you as a leader, you just effectively work and blind. Mm. You know, I just absolutely. I don’t, I don’t have a better way that you can know the impact that you’re having on people or the impact that you’re having on an organization because, you know, KPIs and stats and revenue, it’s not enough.

Ugh, shut up.

Nicola: but it’s no human element to that. Is there it’s like even, [00:07:00] even, you know, KPIs around employee satisfaction, it’s like, well, you still, I still know as an employee, what I’m answering and what. You know, is it, is it true? Is it real? Mm, probably depends what day of the month I’m on really? Or what, you know, how my last three weeks have been rather than a longer

Victoria: term view.

Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, as, as leaders, I think we are there to bring out the best in, in those arounds. Bring out the best in others. Absolutely. If we’re not, and if we’re not asking. Those people. How do we know that, that we’re doing that effectively? How do we know that we’re bringing out the best in them, unless we’re getting that feedback and it’s regular and it’s candid and it’s yeah.

You know, truthful and authentic.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So when we talk about, we’ll talk about feedback in a minute, but employee engagement. Yeah. What is, what’s the definition of it? What’s an actual, this is a framework. This is what, this is what you mean. Obviously being an expert in it. What

Victoria: does, yeah.

So [00:08:00] when I talk about employee engagement, I’m talking about your best people, bringing their best selves to work and doing their best work when they get there. Nice. Yeah. So it’s not, it’s not just happy employees cuz happy employees are kind of, you know, there may. Sat on a beanbag drinking the free beer somewhere.

Yeah. You know, we’re really happy if that’s what was required deposit at work. It’s about channeling that energy into the goals and, and the aims of your organization. So best people best, you know, doing their best work when they get there. And I guess is a, there’s a really kind of. Um, straightforward framework that we use in space, HR when we’re, when we’re kind of, um, poking around engagement and, and trying to understand engagement in an organization.

So we talk about connection, uh, with the organization that seems like vision, mission values, where there in place have got. Voice in the organization. Yeah. Talk about leadership. And that’s about relationships with your leaders. We talk about fulfillment and having fulfilling roles, things like work, life balance or career [00:09:00] development might sit in there and then we talk about wellbeing.

So feeling safe, secure, supported in the organization, diversity inclusion might sit in there for example, around that kind of psychological safety. Yeah. So that’s kind of what we’re talking about when we’re talking about engagement. Yeah. And

Nicola: why, why is it so important to leaders? So I know you already mentioned about.

Without it, they’re kind of leading in, in a blind way and, you know, looking forward rather than looking around them, just say more about how it can impact on leaders and you know, their role.

Victoria: Yeah. So I think, oh, I think there’s a organizational. Level where it has an impact. And I think there’s an individual level where it has an impact.

So organizationally, you know, often, particularly at the moment conversations I’m having with clients are, you know, help me retain my best talent. And when we peel it back, it isn’t, you know, you can’t make. People stay in your [00:10:00] organization. You’ve got to give them a really great reason to stay. Yeah. And so, you know, if you are a leader and you are trying to get stuff done in the organization, you’ve got your own goals and your own outcomes that you want to deliver.

You need that right team around you that comes to making sure that you’ve got the right talent delivering at their best. And employee engagement is absolutely what’s. Yeah. What’s at the heart of that. So. You know, again, we talk about amplifying engagement, retention, and performance and employee engagement.

Absolutely underpins all of that. So that’s kind of at an organizational level, you know, if you’ve got goals that you want to achieve, you need a performing team. You need a team that are, uh, that are solid. And all of that is underpin by engagement on a micro level. You know, as, as a leader, having in having an engaged team means that you are bringing out the best in that individual.

Yeah. On, on a, on an individual basis, you know, you are inspiring them as a leader or you are giving them that why in the [00:11:00] organization. Yeah. Or, you know, you are helping them deliver a fulfilling role in that organization that they love coming to work every day. Cuz they understand why they’re doing. Yeah.

Nicola: So it’s almost like an, it’s like a ongoing conversation. So it’s that the voice almost the voice of your employees, but beyond that employee voice survey type thing, it’s almost like a, I suppose you’ve got your formal structures, but then there’s more informal. You know, knowing what the heartbeat of your company is from an employee’s

Victoria: perspective.

Yeah. From, from a feedback yeah. From an employee feedback perspective. Yeah. So we, a lot of the, the work that we do is, is kind of quarterly surveys and, and that’s about checking in really regulate. Yeah. Not with the same questions, but checking in what’s going on in the org. What do we need to know? Um, yeah, but that should always.

You know, there’s the power of anonymity that I mentioned before, because there’s some evidence that suggests that three courses of employees [00:12:00] are more likely to offer up feedback if it’s anonymous and that bail of anonymity. So we can often surface feedback that, um, in a different way that, that we might not be able to tap into.

Yeah. But that should always supplement. That in the moment feedback, how did, how did I do with this? And is this working for you? And you know, the performance, you know, you get what you need from me. Am I good coach? Do you, am I articulating the vision? Well, cetera. So that kind of informal feedback, plus they’re more kind of structured feedback.

Yeah, absolutely. That’s

Nicola: really powerful. Absolutely. And we already talked about, you know, getting to the end of your end of your review, and then you’re suddenly giving feedback free scenarios that you don’t even remember, cuz they were so long ago. And part of the work that I do when I’m helping people to develop, say coaching skills, for example, is that shift to more of a coaching culture, which is.

That in the moment, maybe not in the same room at the same time feedback, but almost like that in, [00:13:00] in a very relevant amount of time. That actually my feedback, maybe you could have thought about this differently, but actually that was brilliant. Rather than nine months later when you’re going for your annual review and you’re already feeling defensive, cuz you want to get a certain grade and you’re not, you don’t really know what, you know, what you’ve already been marked at.

Victoria: So yeah, exactly. And I do, I sometimes think if you aren’t used to delivering feedback or receiving feedback, it can feel like a conflict situation. Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes, you know, when we get to like doing the first survey out for team, for example, can take a while while people. Brace themselves almost for it, because it is, it’s quite a vulnerable process, you know?

Yeah. Huge as leaders, you’ve got to be ready for whatever that feedback says, and you’ve got to kind of almost psych yourself up for it. And then as a, as an employee, you’ve got to kind of make yourself quite vulnerable in order to give that feedback. But the great thing is the more you do it. The less painful is it [00:14:00] just becomes part of the

Nicola: culture becomes part of, it’s almost like a developing a muscle is kind of yeah.

Victoria: That’s, that’s a really great way of describing it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicola: Okay. Brilliant. So with employee feedback, so where does that kind of come in? Why, why is that? So we’ve already talked about a little bit about engagement, but where does employee feedback come in? Why, why is that so critical? Especially to leaders.

Victoria: Mm. So I think so if we, if we know that employee engagement is really kind of important to what we want to achieve as leaders as what we want to achieve as an organization, you know, there’s, I’m sure everybody can reel off an example of an organization that’s struggling that, you know, when we peel it back, it’s about culture and it’s about engagement.

Yeah. You know, so that kind of link between performance and engagement is, is absolutely there. And. And I kind of talk through, I’ve got like a four box model that I kind of work through in my mind around that connection and leadership and fulfillment and wellbeing and those kind of elements making up [00:15:00] engagement, where employee feedback comes in is, is how we know that we’re getting it right.

Yeah. You know, do, like I said, you know, do we know that the employees understand the goals of the organization and how they can contribute for example? Yeah. And do we, um, do we know that those teams are getting what they need from us as individual leaders? Yeah. Do we know. Do we know that worklife balance is working for those individuals and we’re supporting them effectively inside and outside work.

Do we know that they feel safe in the, you know, physically and psychologically safe in the workplace? Yeah. Unless we’re asking for that feedback, we actually don’t know. Yeah. We’re just kind of guessing. So. Does that does that awful kind of phrase of like, feedback’s a gift and I’m sure there’s a, a bad cause come up with it.

But actually it’s, you know, this should be, this should be the fuel that you can going out there and going, right. Give me feedback. What do I need? How can I improve? [00:16:00] And. You know, how, what am I awesome at as well? You know, it’s not always, it’s not always negative. It’s not always about gaps. It’s, you know, what makes me special as a leader?

What makes us special as an organization? Yeah. Then how do we then go and capitalize on that, you know, and really turn up the volume on what makes us special because of that great feedback. Yeah, absolutely.

Nicola: Absolutely. And I think his points remember is that I think as humans, or especially as if I think about the women that I work with, there’s a natural tendency to default that, oh God, it’s gonna be something horrific.

Yeah, it’s gonna be something negative, which is a brain negatively wired, but actually a lot of the time and also the brain will fixate on something negative versus five positive things. Yeah. So, you know, if you’ve had a great day and so many things have gone, right. But one thing goes wrong. Where does your mind naturally go?

It just goes to the one thing that isn’t quite where you want it to be. I was just thinking as you’re speaking as well, but do you think we’ve. We’ve like gen Y gen Z and, and just different generations [00:17:00] now at work. And they’re more discerning than ever. Do you think that the feedback is becoming more important than

Victoria: ever?

I do. Yeah. Um, and I think, I

Nicola: think there are certain because they need more than just getting paid the right amount and the, the role that they want. It’s actually, how’s my environment. Can I speak up, can I bring my whole self to work? Whatever that means, race, gender, whatever that is. And those things actually now.

Or going to either. Create loyalty, or they’re gonna take away from my loyalty

Victoria: a hundred percent. And you know, we, you know, we shouldn’t generalize as whole generations, um, in general, should we? But actually the evidence does suggest that those gen EDI were now starting to enter our workplace. They are, they’re very values driven.

They, they genuinely care whether they’ve gotten or a voice and, um, an influence in the organization. They care whether they believe in the mission of that organization. Yeah. And when it comes to talent, it [00:18:00] won’t, it won’t even be about keeping them in your organization. You just won’t attract them in the first place.

Yeah.

Nicola: Yeah. So you’re kind of potentially missing out on like a, a huge untapped market.

Victoria: Yeah. AB absolutely. Um, one of the, one of the things that I’ve been talking to clients about recently is taking that positive feedback and using that on kind of social media or, you know, using that externally as a way to boost, you know, to, to share what it’s like internally.

Yeah. And, you know, to kind of set that beacon out around, you know, here’s what we are really great

Nicola: at. Yeah. Here’s what, here’s the lived experience of working. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I love that. Make it

Victoria: easy for that talent to come and make a decision to either apply or come and join you. Yeah. Yeah. I

Nicola: love that.

Absolutely. With feedback at more of, um, more of a local level. So if you were thinking about, you know, probably like the stuff that I know my corporate career was done and dusted like 10 years ago [00:19:00] now, but I remember the terror, the absolute terror, like 360 feedback, for example, like, or, you know, my boss saying something really positive on you after that was good.

Cause some something that wasn’t as positive and there’d be another positive.

Victoria: Oh, yeah. The H one T sandwich. Yeah, exactly. Oh, we’ve all been in. We’ve all been in a training course where that was. Uh, so that was really,

Nicola: so are there some, are there some frameworks now? So if someone was going, if, if one of my list, one of our list was going into a feedback situation, are they wanted to give some feedback?

How could they set? What would be a structure that would be away from maybe those more traditional kind of structures that might be just feel less daunting for

Victoria: them? Do you know, I, I always think that, I dunno whether it, well, it isn’t a structure. I, um, you know, and I’m not sure whether it’s it’s good advice, but I think practice it, be confident with it.

Make sure it’s your own OB, there’s nothing worse than having to [00:20:00] give kind of third party somebody else’s feedback. It’s awkward. Yeah. And it’s, it’s just, it’s not right. Is it so, you know, make sure that it’s your experience, your observations. And I guess my, my advice is just. Get on with it. You know, if you, if you’ve got feedback to give, just get on with it, because you, you know, like we’ve already talked about the longer you leave it, the less impact it’s gonna have.

Yeah. Less connection isn’t there. Yeah, exactly. And actually it could end up being quite damaging to that employee. You know, you great example of those awful kind of. You know, end of year reviews of nine months ago, this happened and I wrote it down in my little black book and I’ve been saving it up for nine.

Cause we can’t possibly talk about

Nicola: your performers

Victoria: at any other time. Yeah, I know crackers. So just, yeah, just get on with it and actually like, say it is it’s like that muscle, the more you do it. Yeah. The more comfortable you’ll feel with it and the more [00:21:00] comfortable. You know, the, the sooner you can bake feedback is into part of the, in the fabric of love that organization.

Yeah. Or how, or how you operate as a leader, the better, you know, that feedback is the heart of trust and we, yeah. I’m sure we, we all understand how important that is to have that relationship. Yeah. Um, with teams as a leader, you know, and, and it’s that kind of open conversation. That’s gonna

Nicola: get you. Yeah, absolutely.

And that is two ways. Isn’t it? Even at the most senior level, you still be, if you’re giving feedback, you should still be having feedback. You shouldn’t be a one way. Do you think there’s. Well, as you think we kind of know, but I, is it harder at that more senior level to kind of, you know, if you imagine a woman at the top she’s on the board, maybe one of the couple, and she’s wanting to give some feedback, is that, do you think that’s harder at that more senior level to give that and almost as a risk of it’s a peer?

I don’t know if I [00:22:00] wanna, you know, endanger that relationship with them or.

Victoria: Hmm, in terms of giving the feedback. I think, I dunno whether it’s, I dunno whether it’s a gender thing again, if you set the right environment. Yeah. And you are, you are setting up that conversation in the right way so that it, you know, it, isn’t a surprise and it’s yeah.

Um, and it’s done really respectfully and, and it’s done with kind of kindness and with the intent of. I feel like you need to know this and, and it’s another part of your leadership if you like. Yeah. I think there shouldn’t be any damaging any damage in that relationship, but then I think there are some organizations where.

It’s so far away from that feedback culture that anything like that can, can kind of go on, go on lockdown. Yeah. And, and turn quite toxic quite quickly. Yeah.

Nicola: Yeah. And I suppose the long it, if you leave it for longer and you don’t say it, it [00:23:00] might build in something bigger and bigger rather than some in the moment feedback it’s.

The more, you can make it in the, in the moment, the less it’s that becomes a huge thing of it’s just like, actually, do you know that I, you know, I, I interpreted it this way or actually I kind of. This from it.

Victoria: Yeah. And it might be better to, um, you know, cuz sometimes we can start that conversation with, I’ve got some feedback for you or, and automatically your back goes up, doesn’t it whereas actually, if you were just, you know, if you needed to kind of set yourself a path of, of creating that kind of environment, where feedback would be received, if, you know, if you started that with.

Commenting on something that had gone, right. Something that you’d observed and you know, and then maybe next time then you can introduce some negative feedback next, not negative, but you know, some more constructive feedback next time. But yeah, but building those foundations of it’s it’s natural or normal for us to comment on something that happened, whether it be good, [00:24:00] bad, different, ugly.

Yeah. Whatever.

Nicola: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So if, if someone’s in an organization at the moment and there, maybe isn’t such a feedback and kind of coaching and a, a kind of that level of engagement. Mm. How can they start? How can someone start to. Lead by example, and bring that in. Good question.

Victoria: So as said earlier, I’m a little bit biased towards anonymous feedback.

So you could start there, you could kinda start with that safety net of doing something anonymous and start the conversations going that way. Or you could, as a, as a leader kind of prep your team or whoever you’d like to get feedback from that you would like to gather some feedback and give them a structure around it.

Something like, for example, start, stop, continue. Or, oh, I like that. Yeah. Yeah. So that. You know, there’s, there’s a neat little box that they can give you that feedback in to get them going. And then [00:25:00] once you’ve broken that ice, you know, lay the path to keep that going so that yeah know, I’m gonna ask you for this on a regular basis and sometimes yeah.

I love framework,

Nicola: so that’s not. Yeah. So I talk to clients about stop, stop, do more of, less of, yeah. Yeah. And then it’s, and it’s quite a nice balance there. Isn’t it? It’s like, well, you know, if this is do more of, it’s obviously something. You’re great at

Victoria: anyway. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So sometimes kind of like say, given that, given that framework and given.

Boxes to put it in, can make it a bit less scary than saying, you know, I’d like to, I’d like to ask you for some feedback or at the end of a one to one kind of going, if you’ve got any feedback from me and everybody kind of sits there like rabbits and headlight and goes, thinking internally. Yeah. I’ve got a ton of feedback for it, but oh my God, I’m not gonna tell you now.

Cause you haven’t created that psychological. You haven’t created that safe environment in order to yeah. Do it. You can’t just spring that on someone. [00:26:00]

Nicola: So if someone’s leading a team and they want to start getting that feedback, but also giving more of that feedback. So a couple of things. So first of all, can I, that, does that need to involve HR?

Can that be more of an informal process?

Victoria: I think it’s more informal process. The, the better really? Um, yeah,

Nicola: because obviously you’ve got HR almost with a big engagement

Victoria: piece. Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, HR will help you with a survey, maybe, you know, that kind of anonymous survey that it’s HR teams that we tend to interact with when, when we’re doing that, but on a, on a local level, I think.

Yeah, definitely. Just cuz what you’re trying to do is create that psychological safety, that trust environment, and I think the lower. Key the more informal that you can do that the, the better really?

Nicola: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah. Introducing concept using that structure of stop, start more of less of, yeah, you can do that one to one start with, but then, you know, bring [00:27:00] that into your team.

And I think, yeah, I think that stop start more of less of like, that’s such a nice, simple structure to over the next month. We’re gonna introduce this, but start to have a think about, and you know, as we’re going into meetings or working together, just have a think about people in the team.

Victoria: Yeah, exactly.

And don’t be surprised if at some point the feedback dries up. That’s kind of okay. Cuz what, what you might find is you have like a little bit of a bell curve often talk to this about, um, with our, uh, around, um, feedback surveys as well. It might take a little bit of time for people to engage in the feedback process and get really used to it.

Yeah. And then once they’ve had their say, you might tip into maintenance mode and you might find that the feedback isn’t as frequent. You know, it’s impact and that’s kind of okay, because hopefully by that point you’ve flushed out any issues or, you know what, yeah. You know, what’s what, and really we’re just talking about exceptions or yeah.

Yeah.

Nicola: It’s almost like the voice you’ve had [00:28:00] chance, uh, your voice and give that feedback and received. So actually, yeah, a certain point, there might not be anything new for a time.

Victoria: Yeah, exactly. And again, you know, sometimes when, when you, when you’ve reached that level, it can then be useful to go and ask for feedback on something very specific.

Yeah. So, um,

Nicola: or something maybe that you are looking to develop or grow into,

Victoria: or yeah, yeah, exactly. Or, you know, on an organizational level, something that’s maybe happened in that organization that you need to check in with the team on very specifically or, you know, to kind of keep that feedback going, but again, putting.

Almost a tighter context on it to help the team frame the thinking.

Nicola: Yeah. And if you’re a leader and you’re leading at the moment for a lot of change, that might be like a merger or an accession or a huge change. How, yeah. How does how’s that kind of affected? How does that affect the feedback and engagement?

Victoria: Oh, it’s so important at that time. It’s just so important. So I, yeah, I’ve done, I’ve done [00:29:00] quite a lot of acquisitions of, um, across my, um, career and it’s always just such an exciting time for, um, for organizations, but they’ve going through that, you know, that change curve. Yeah, sure. Everyone’s kind of, um, familiar with that change curve and, and the kind of the engagement and the understanding.

And it can just ebb and flow so much between teens and over time. And, you know, and again, what you’re trying to do is create that psychological safety, get them through that change curve as quickly as you can, and getting feedback is gonna help. So, you know, there’s so much particularly communication that needs to happen during a process such as an acquisition.

And you need to know that it’s London world, you know? Yeah. What maps have we found, you know, did that, did that last communication go down? Well, uh, you know, How’s the team feeling about it and I’m, I’m making it sound like, you know, it’s, it’s really hard work. It doesn’t need to be, but it’s so important to kind of keep checking in, particularly around, around yeah.

Really high change processes. And I think, I [00:30:00] think all

Nicola: this for me comes back to just being human. And like, as a leader, you are, you are very human and valuable and, but so is everyone around you and actually just allowing for people being. Human and having ebbs and flows in their career or having, you know, appreciate the chapter life that they’re in and where they’re focused or yeah, knowing that actually.

Merger acquisition that for a lot of people is quite a huge thing. If they’ve worked for an organization for a long time, it’s gonna be huge. Mm. So just to kind of appreciate that. And I think, I dunno, I’m a massive bra brown fan girl. I dunno if you are.

Victoria: Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah.

Nicola: And all of this for me is about reminds me of her, her model of leadership.

So that, that kind of, that daring model of leadership versus the armor. Kind of leadership. So the daring is more open to question open to being challenged. It’s almost like the leader standing up, like this is direction [00:31:00] we’re going in. Let’s all go together and work out how this, how we get there. I I’ll lead it and own it, but actually we’re gonna get there together.

Yeah. And then if you’ve got the armored, it’s the leader, this is where we’re going, gonna do it this way. Cause I stay. And it’s kind of like not open to question can be quite judgemental, can feel almost like you are a bit disconnected and it feels like the more feedback and engagement there is, the more there’s gonna be in that you’re gonna be in that daring sphere of leadership of actually.

This isn’t just about me as leader. This is, this is wider than that. And that human element of leadership of how are people

Victoria: feeling. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I think if you, if you take it back to that kind of team performance and you know, you’re not gonna drive performance across an organization by just increasing KPIs and goals, every, you know, cuz you, you can’t pour out of an empty cup.

So it is, it’s about checking back in. It is, it’s that human element of, I care [00:32:00] about you. I care enough about you to capture your feedback and, um, or is, uh, Brene, um, talks about, I, I can’t remember what I’ve listened to it, or, but she gives examples of like at the end of a meeting, for example, with her team and she’ll, you know, somebody’s been a bit, or.

You know, and she’ll kind of say to them really bravely, daring, you know, I noticed this about you. Yeah. In this meeting, can you tell me what’s going on and let’s talk about it, you know? And it’s literally, it’s my observation. It’s in the moment it’s coming from a place of, I care about you and, and I want, I want us to move past it.

Tell me what’s going on for you. Yeah. Um, you know, it’s a great example

Nicola: of it. Yeah. And I think that is that care and connection. Isn’t it. Especially if you imagine. Oh, HR and everything, you know, leaders and female, especially what I’ve gone through for the last two years. And a lot of my, a lot of my clients are HR director and say, for example, so yeah, suring teams taking salary cuts, you know, [00:33:00] making people redundant.

It’s been really hard. So actually now just like getting back to that, we’re kind of back in some more, feels a bit more day to day, actually that you know, that engagement and feedback is probably more important than ever I’d think to kind of. I, you know, have that care and connection because that’s what, what else would get people through the last two years and B Brown’s got this great tool that I love as well.

We’re just geeking out on B now, but she’s, she’s amazing. she’s I, she’s also like one of my favorite people that I can imagine sitting, having, like, having like. Tea cake with, or like a good cup and some cake. Yeah. And she would just, yeah, she’d be so distracted. She he’d be like me and just distracted by the Kate until she, but I can imagine just sat and we’d be best in my mind.

We’re best friends ready. So yeah, if you’re listening,

Victoria: BNE

Nicola: but she, um, she talks about just at the start of meetings as well. And I use this in a lot of my. When I’m running workshops or webinars or wellness, lunch, and learned those sort of things, but [00:34:00] just to get people in the room and to get them back in, back in the moment, just a two word check in, you know, what are the two words that are coming up for you right now?

Oh, I read that. Yeah. So immediately, you know, off. Off the cuff from just intuitively. So, you know, that varies from energized and excited to exhausted and under pressure. And, and it’s just that, that acknowledgement is when you are, you know, some of these webinars are like 3, 400, 500 people all across the world, which kind of blows my mind in the moment, but it’s just that human connection.

For me to connect with that many people. And for me to connect with, actually, this is what I wanna share with you. Some of it’s gonna be quite personal. Yeah. Um, or gonna ask you to think a bit differently. Let’s start with just, where are you right now? Let’s get you back in the room. Let’s get you focused here and now, you know, switch your phone off, switch your email off and just be here and just answer the question.

How do you feel right

Victoria: now? I love that that’s so powerful and that can, and it was build trust, right? Yeah. Because you know, and

Nicola: I know [00:35:00] you get a bit of connection between people as well. Cause you know, it’s like, oh, this person feels really E energized, excited about that. It’s like any, and all of these feelings are okay.

I’m just. I’m just so happy that you’re here. It’s just brilliant. You’re taking time for you. And there’s that immediate kind of connection. I love that. Yeah. Oh, we we’re just gonna

Victoria: go down brown route and just, uh

Nicola: but for, for leaders then, so we’ve talked a bit about feedback and a great structure that they can use.

Yeah. And for people at the very top though, do you think there’s more of a. Armored feeling around getting, having feedback and also the engagement. So if we take feedback almost as individual, but engagement, almost that bigger company piece, do you think there’s maybe a potential to be more

Victoria: defensive?

Yes, because I think that muscle isn’t used as often, I think there is a point where. We stop asking for it or it, it doesn’t become as important. I would argue. It’s always important. But that, that process [00:36:00] stops, you know, particularly, you know, sometimes I’ve, I’ve observed it where very senior people have been given feedback and they just can’t connect to it.

Yeah. Cause they’re too far away from yeah. Reality. You know, and that, I think that’s where the defensiveness comes in of like, no, I dunno what you’re talking about. Sorry. Yeah. And, and it’s because it’s because you aren’t using that, you’ve, you’ve kind of lost, lost track of what’s going on at some point.

Yeah. Yeah.

Nicola: Can I TA can I share a guilty pleasure at the moment, please do just watching, um, I’m an undercover

Victoria: boss. that’s OK. Yeah. Yeah. It’s so good. But it’s,

Nicola: it’s quite insightful though, for these, you know, the very senior, the CEOs, the presidents, the, you know, very senior people that are going into their own organizations and just not realizing that there was, um, a lady that I watched just yesterday, I think, and this [00:37:00] was a gym chain.

And she’s just going into a different gym chains and just like, it was a franchise model. So, you know, the variety within that is huge. So one, one particular guy just wanted to run. It’s just a workout gym and it was gonna be, you know, bro together, we’re gonna go hard or she’s like, well, you’ve just alienated every single woman that walks into the gym.

Yeah. Whereas another, another, um, Jim owner. Uh, lady around 50 kept it absolutely pristine, but she knew every single one person’s name, man, woman, however old, she just knew their name. And she knew how old their children were, whether they graduate, you know, she just knew. It was such a different thing, but it was so insightful for her to go in and just get back into the heart of her business or their business that it’s almost this shock.

I know it’s a bit of a shock tactic and it’s a program, but actually those sort of insights are so valuable. It’s just like, why are using to having to use two different systems to just like register someone coming into the gym. It’s like, well, that’s what we’ve got. So,

Victoria: and it’s just that. [00:38:00] But, and, and, you know, we can see this in, in surveys as well, you know, and sometimes it’s really small hygiene things of like, you know, something’s been broken in the kitchen for ages.

Yeah. And the feedback’s been going, you know, we just need to get it fixed and, and it becomes background noise, but actually it isn’t that individual that’s having to use to navigate that broken cattle every day or whatever. And I think. You know, it’s not always kind of organizational, you know, fundamental stuff that we can surface free feedback.

You know, sometimes it is, this is really getting on my nerves and actually fixing it would make a difference. Where do you think that letting that become background noise, where do

Nicola: you think that can break down sometimes? Oh,

Victoria: Ooh. Or would it be wrong to say kind of middle management? I think no, just your show.

No. Um, I don’t know. I think, I think, um, [00:39:00] what’s it called? The secret boss? Is that the undercover boss under undercover boss would good night. Yeah, I think that’s a great example of like somebody kind of at the top of the chain, who’s probably kind of put in some layers of hierarchy in every layer of hierarchy you put in, you know, you’d lose.

Touched a little bit. Yeah. And then, and you know, and then, and then your kind of vision gets diluted and unless you are absolutely galvanizing all of those leaders and all those people leaders in that organization around this awesome vision or values that you’ve got, and you’re absolutely sure that they’re all galvanized again around it.

That’s when it kind of gets dilated. And that’s where things like, you know, a broken Kele, you can find that the. Manager that’s on the site. There doesn’t feel like they’ve got the, the autonomy to it because, uh, to, to fix it because, you know, they’ve had a tell off about expenses in the past and, and, you know, and then you can start to unravel all kinds of cultural nonsense, can’t you, but you can kind of see how this stuff really builds up in an [00:40:00] organization.

Yeah, absolutely.

Nicola: Absolutely. So I think we could talk about this all day and we could probably fan girl Brene all day as well. So that’s basical is also but have you got a final message for our audience today? Cause I think there’s loads. There’s that great framework we talked about. There’s the, you know, engagement versus feedback and what it means and it’s.

It’s heartbeat of what’s going on in your organization. And is there a final message for your, our audience today?

Victoria: Oh, man, I wish I had something like really killer . I think it would be like, just depending on a really nice shot. I, I think my kind of words would be. Just go and be brave about it. Go and make yourself vulnerable and just go, wow.

And get that feedback and then go and do something with it and just, yeah, just go and make yourself vulnerable. Go get it and find out what happens.

Nicola: Yeah. I love that. I love that. Absolutely. Absolutely. So we’re into some, um, quick fire questions [00:41:00] now. Yeah. Hit

Victoria: me. Yep. You

Nicola: ready? Yeah. Okay. So first one, a book that you have loved, that’s changed your world.

Victoria: Uh, seven habits of highly affected people. Ooh.

Nicola: Oh, that’s been mentioned a few times. Stephen coy, isn’t

Victoria: it? Oh yeah. AB absolute game changer for me. Loved it. Yeah. Did

Nicola: he also write how to stop? Worry?

Victoria: I think it’s done one on called speed of trust, which also is awesome. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah. A

Nicola: box set that you love that you’re addicted to at the moment.

Victoria: Oh, I’ve just watched, um, inventing Amy. It was, oh, is it

Nicola: good? I only got halfway through your first episode. I wasn’t like, oh, does it

Victoria: get better? It does. Yeah, it’s really good. Okay. Do think invented Amy? I think you do. I’m not making you just making up a series. That one Netflix. Yeah.

Nicola: um, and a leader that’s inspired

Victoria: you.

Oh, my goodness, me there was a leader who I’m still in touch with, [00:42:00] who I worked with at Chester, actually, who is just awesome, uh, called Jane. And I’m still in touch with there and I still kind of rely on her for feedback and, um, and advice. And you know, just somebody that you just know is gonna be in your life for a long time.

Yeah. Oh,

Nicola: love it. Love the sound of her. Finally. What does find your fire mean to. Oh,

Victoria: that is about, so I talk about leaders bringing out the best in, in, um, in other people. I think, I think it’s about doing that for yourself. Bringing out the best in

Nicola: yourself. I love that. I love that. Absolutely. Absolutely.

And where can our audience find out more about the work that you’re doing?

Victoria: This is great work. You can find me all over LinkedIn and you can find us on our website as well, which is basic jar.co dot. Yeah, come check me out and on my new podcast, I know this week, um, yeah, the HR directors caught and we’re talking about HR dilemmas and conundrums, um, and real life issues [00:43:00] and, and kind of talking them through as a, as a threesome of, uh, some HR leaders.

So yeah, you can check us out there as. Love it.

Nicola: Love it. Thank you so much for your time today. Just really, really insightful. I can’t believe my client was asking on Tuesday and

Victoria: then here we are. So, oh, love that timely. Love. It meant to be . Oh, right. Thank you

Nicola: much. You’re so welcome. If you’ve got any feedback on the podcast today, or you would like to ask a question to, um, for me to answer on the podcast.

All the details are the show notes. We now have SpeakPipe so you can actually, I can hear your voice and you can ask, leave me a voice message, which I think is pretty cool. So all the details are in the show notes, and I will see you on the next episode. Thank you. Bye.

I just wanna, wanna take a moment just to say thank you for listening. When I’m sat recording a podcast in the deepest steps of Coolmore, it’s incredible to think that is [00:44:00] reaching women across the world in 30 different countries. And we have thousands of downloads a month. So thank you so much for being part of that.

And being part of the audience means a world to me, but I do want to grow this audience. I would love you to help me reach more women like you so that we can really drive positive change in the corporate world. So you can do that one of three. First of all, you can subscribe to the podcast. You never miss an episode.

It’s always a new episode. It’s always delivered straight to your inbox. You can review the podcast and leave us of rating. And the more ratings we have, we also go up in the podcast charts. And finally, you can just share a favorite podcast with a peer, with a colleague or on your social media. So I would love you to do that.

Thank you for all your help. Um, I can’t wait for what’s next.