Nicola: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to our podcast today. This is my new and improved and, um, we’ve just shifted a little bit. The folks. The podcast. So we are very much focused now on women at the top of telecoms and tech. So it’s kind of like coming home for me. And today I have a brilliant lady with me that I’m gonna be interviewing today.

And this is someone that probably kept me quite sane. Well, mainly sane during my corporate career. And this is someone that I’ve always. Kind of looked up to and being inspired by, and just someone that I just think brings like this combination, brilliant combination of being very strategic, very directive, very clear, but also brings a lot of femininity and sparkle to any room that she’s in.

And today I’m gonna be interviewing Joe Gill Foy. So Joe is global head of commercial and sales to VO phone IOT. So she’s a great focus [00:01:00] leader. She very much focused on creating a high performance, positive culture. And obviously that’s within the very fast growing, um, markets of telco and she really focuses on demanding better in everything that she does.

And she really wants to just really embed that in her teams, that same passion and energy. And she’s also really passionate about education, diversity and inclusion. So she’s done a lot of work around women’s networks and has lectured on, um, BA honors and MBA courses as. So hello, Joe. Welcome. I’m so excited.

Hey Nick. Lovely

Jo: to speak to you.

Nicola: Aw, welcome. Welcome. Right. Welcome to the podcast, Joe. I’m really excited that you’re here today. How are you? I’m really good,

Jo: Nick. And I’m really excited about today. Thank you so much for inviting me on. It’s lovely to chat to you.

Nicola: Yeah. As always, we’ve already had like a 15 minute catch up so we can actually, uh, share some, share some useful stuff during the podcast.

I’m sure you don’t wanna hear about families and beaches and

Jo: dogs and

Nicola: weddings and stuff. So, yeah. Um, so [00:02:00] obviously. Introduced you already, but can you share a little bit about some of the chapters that have brought you to where you are now and being in this really senior role and obviously within a, a male dominated industry and probably a male dominated part of a male dominated industry.

So it’s almost like a double whammy of, uh, men around you and just you. And I think, like I said, the big thing that’s always stood out for me is that. I just have this real sense that you are, who you are. You’ve done a lot of work to kind of uncover who that is, and you very much bring that to your leadership style.

And part of that is you really enjoy like the clothes that you wear and there’s that sparkliness and the dang earings and just being very, very feminine, which I think is just, I absolutely love and have always loved that. So can you just share a little about the chapters that have brought you to where you are now and the, and the role that you’re in today?

Jo: Yeah, sure. No, I’d be really, really pleased do. Um, so I’ve been in telco now for about 25 years and I was, I was thinking about this whilst I was, uh, sort of thinking about talking to you and, uh, 25 years seems like an awfully long [00:03:00] time and it’s just flown by it. It, it really has. I mean, I, I, I started. Sort of working, um, for Nokia back in the heyday when, um, everyone at my age will, will work with joy.

When you remember the 32 10, and that last, that lasted a week. And the most exciting thing about owning the phone was choosing your ring tone.

Um, and I really loved working for NOIA. I mean, sort of everywhere I’ve worked has kind taught me very, very sort of different things, which I I’ve sort of taken forward with me. Um, so with NOIA, it was so much about the power of a brand, not just sort NOIA as a brand, but also you as a personal brand and you kind to there about my, my kind of like my femininity and my, my Sparky earring.

That’s something that I actually kind of struggled with or sort of wrestled with a little bit. Yeah, because of sort of the age I am. I’m, I’m, I’m nearly 50. When I came into business to get forward ahead in business, you, you kind of had to act like the people around you, which pretty much always was the [00:04:00] men.

So it was kind of like the boring suits, the sort of like the dark colors, um, the sort of like the, the, the almost you couldn’t refer to the, almost like the power that femininity actually would bring to a business because there weren’t that many. Role models really, of females to kind of look up to. And even when I think back to the early days, the role models of the females there, they were still very sort of, uh, I so very masculine.

Yeah. So when I looked up, then it was okay, they’ve got a hedge because they got the short haircuts and the power and the power suits and they have this sort of masculine, um, attitude. And I was like, it’s just not me. And, and, and so, and so that’s something that I I’m, I’m very resolute about now, but also I, I’m kind of really proud of now as well.

Yeah. To be, to be authentic and to believe in myself and your, and my, and my image is a big thing that gives me that authenticity. I mean, it’s, it’s, I think that’s a really important thing for me. Um, and kinda going back [00:05:00] to, to branding NOIA used to have a 21 year brand strategy. It’s like to be, to be, yeah.

To be that convinced that they knew sort of like what they wanted to do, um, with the, with the brand. And obviously there were other things that kinda shifted. Obviously the mobile side of the business did obviously unfortunately disappear off, but the brand of Nokia is still as powerful. It was a hundred years ago when kind of when Nokia came about.

And I love that conviction in something and to have conviction in one steal, despite setback. Is, it is something I, I, I definitely took, um, from Nokia. Yeah. And then I moved, um, I took a bit of a big leap really from Nokia because I, I had a phone call from a friend and, uh, who literally said to me, I can’t tell you who the company is.

And I can’t tell you what you’ll be doing, but this will be the best job you’ve ever had. Um, and it, it appealed to that really quite like dangerous side of me. Yeah. But we we’ll do anything for, um,

Nicola: [00:06:00] noted next

Jo: time I see you. Um, I remember talking to my husband, who’s, who’s just been, I mean, sort of like Steve, my husband when we together 28 years and I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t be the person I was without him.

He is my biggest cheerleader. But he’s also my biggest balance to sort of say, you know, you’re not really behaving very well at the moment you should do. This is what I think. And so he’s someone who I trust implicitly to give me advice and help. Um, and I think again, having somebody like that in your life that can really be that balance board for you is, is massively important because you’re not always sure, even though, you know, you have to appear sure.

You’re really not always sure about things. So we, so I would say that again, as a female kind of linking into what you and I have shared a lot over the years, which is the women’s network, sort of the women’s networks are, are absolutely they’re worth their weight in gold. I’ve had the best friends from them.

I’ve had the best advice, but also I’ve had the best mentors and the best [00:07:00] job opportunities. So I would definitely say to people form those networks. Yeah. Going go get those communities. But, uh, yeah.

Nicola: Especially if you don’t have them create them. And I think most companies now would be really supportive that whether that’s a gender 50 50 group, whether that’s a women’s group or whatever you feel that, you know, what is relevant to that particular organization.

But I think it’s that, I don’t know a lot of the programs that I run a lot of what the women get out of it. Yes. They’re gonna learn from me and learn from their self discovery, but they’re gonna learn a huge amount from each other. And just that sense, you’re not alone. You’re not, you’re not the only one who’s, you know, I wanna be confident, but actually I’m just shaking inside because I really don’t know the answer to this, or this is a new skill for me or, and just having, knowing that you’re not the only one to feel that way, I just think is so, so powerful.

Yeah,

Jo: absolutely. And I, I think actually that, that sort of women are more likely to also say I feel that way. I think that that sort of an, and I, I’ve got a lot of, um, sort of male allies, which again are, are really fundamental. Cause [00:08:00] cause you have to lift everybody up in every area. Um, I, I never like it when people think, oh, it’s a women’s network.

Therefore you are anti-men. I’m just like that’s I couldn’t, I think that’s a pretty childish. Yeah. Response, absolutely. To having to having something. I think that sort of like the ability to have those networks and to be able to talk to the allies around you, whether it’s women, L G B T um, race specific point of view.

Yeah. To have a trusted, safe environment where you can ask questions. You can put forward an idea that you’re just not too sure of it’s all around that kind of psychological safety that you get from just being in your network, in your tribe of people yeah. Around you. That’s where I think a lot of power, um, really comes from.

Yeah,

Nicola: absolutely. Absolutely. And um, if we go back to, I was just speaking, like, just as you said, so many questions kind of coming up, but I love that actually, you know, that early grapple with actually I am, you know, I am quite feminine. Over time that grapple with, should I, should I not be? Cause that’s not what I see, [00:09:00] but then almost leaning into it and really owning it.

Like you said, having that conviction of your own personal brand, that’s part of you and what you bring into a room is that, that different energy and that sense of this is who I am. And you know, it doesn’t mean I, it doesn’t affect how I do my job. This is just how I show. Yeah.

Jo: And I think it also sort of, it, it, it kind of gives me a little bit of the, the, the, the courage.

Cause I think that it does, if, if you, if you have sort like the personal courage, you feel like you’re ready to walk into a room, your whole demeanor changes. Yeah. The whole sort of, um, the whole fact that, uh, uh, when I walk into a room and again, I’m the only female in there. I, if I walk in with courage and a straight back and a kind of a, an ability to look people in the eye and go right, Perry.

Yeah. Um, it helps it eases me. And it’s one of my, kind of like coping mechanisms. If I’m, if I know I’m going into something that could be a little bit hard, having feeling that I’m being very authentic, very,

Nicola: very genuine is helpful. And also what I’ve, what I’ve

Jo: found. And it does kind of make me laugh is when people say to me, oh, [00:10:00] you are Joe people always tell me about your shoes.

I love that Joe brings so much to the world and her role, all

Nicola: the shoes

Jo: I don’t he’s. As I think it’s really, I say, I think it’s really funny because sometimes it’s a bit of an icebreaker and, and it, it is, it, it doesn’t, I don’t feel maybe it’s because of the I, the age I am. I don’t think it takes away from, from, from how good I am at my job, cuz cuz I work incredibly hard at being good at my job.

And if I like to wear funky shoes, then great. It really, it really should. Be something that kind of takes away from, from, from who I am. It’s just a part of, of my, of, of my personality. Um, and so I think if I sort of go back to it, so I, so this, to this company, which is gonna be the most exciting thing ever.

Yeah, yeah. Kind kind of thing. Really. I remember going home and say, talk to my husband, Steve, and, and, uh, and Steve was like, well, he was sort of like, what was the worst? That what’s the worst that could happen. And I was like, I like, I like that phrase. And the other phrase that we say to each other quite a [00:11:00] lot is don’t grow a wishbone where your backbone should be.

So say more about that. It’s cool. Isn’t I really like it. Yeah, because it it’s one of those things, you know, when, when sort of you sit and you think, oh, that person’s amazing. I wish I could be like that. Oh yeah. Or my God, they went traveling. I wish I could do things like that. And I’m, I’m off that mindset now of the fact

Nicola: that

Jo: actually, if you want something, you have to go and make it happen.

Yeah. Yeah. Nobody owes you a career. Yeah. Even if you think I work amazingly hard, I’ve got the ticks in the boxes. Everyone says, I, I want to watch the only person who will make things happen for you is, is you, so it, the work that kind saying is the fact that do I really, really want this? And if I really, really want it, what is my plan?

To get it. And if it’s just a wish, then great, I file it away. And maybe it’s something I’ll come to, but yeah, if I really want it, then it is up to me to make things

Nicola: happen. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And we, um, we’ve also interviewed a [00:12:00] few other women and it’s been amazing, but one of them Jules from BT was saying that actually for her, she’s very vocal about her ambition.

And she speaks it and she owns it and she said, it’s been a real journey of, you know, some people really react to it and judge her for a well that’s, you know? Oh, should you say that? Should you be so outspoken? And she’s like, I went through this again, this bit of a battle of should I shouldn’t I, but she said it only it’s only ever gonna help me cuz people know where I wanna get to.

It reinforces it for me every time I say it. Um, and people generally trying to help me get there. Because I have the capability. So it’s like, I’ve, I’ve voiced it. It’s almost like the goal is there. How do I get there? Who’s gonna help me. Who’s gonna support me. Mm-hmm and it’s really interesting. It’s almost that, yeah.

It’s that a get clear on what you want. And then B always take that, that next step. Even if you’re on a day, that’s not, so you’re not feeling so great. It’s a small step. It’s still a step. Mm. And it,

Jo: and it is. And do you not sometimes saying your ambition out loud to yourself in the mirror? [00:13:00] Is is, is quite a good thing, cuz I, um, I had, uh, I had a very forthright conversation with, uh, one of our, our, our top directors before Christmas.

And I just said, look, I said, I’ve been a VO for a long time. I love it. Absolutely love it here. I’ve had the best, the best fun I said, but I want to be a director. That’s that’s, that’s my next step. I, and I think I’ve done everything that I’m I’m required to do. And what I want from you is a very, very honest response to the fact that do I have the qualities that you believe I need to be a director?

And I, and I said to her, I said, and it’s okay if you say no, I said, because I would rather, you told no now, and I will then go and have a different plan. I said, but what, what I don’t want to have is almost me thinking one thing you not knowing about it, you thinking I’m on a different path or maybe even thinking I’m not any path at all.

And then me getting frustrated cuz it’s not happening for me. Yeah. It’s, it’s the fact that, and, and I think, and he, and he was great and he, he, he gave me very honest feedback. He was like, yes I do in these two particular [00:14:00] areas here. And this is how I can help you. I love that. But I remember walking away from it and the people I told, when did you, did you actually have that conversation?

And I was just like, I wonder why we feel. That we, that we can’t, that we can’t actually have the conversation because I think again, can we back to, Steve’s saying a thing of like, what’s the worst that can happen? He says, no. Yeah. Yep. And I still believe in myself, so I think fair enough. I’ll go and make a different plan.

And I, and I think that having that, that sort of courage is, is hugely important because you also gotta kind of put your money where your mouth. Kind of thing. Cause if you, if you lay the line down and you say, this is what I really want, and this is why, and this is what I’ve worked for, then everybody knows

Nicola: what journey you’re on.

Yeah. It’s absolute clarity. Isn’t it, it’s clarity you, you, in your own mind and making sure that the people around you supporting you, but also the peers and the people that can help you get there, they know as well. So it’s like they’re bought into that journey. So the answer was yes, in these areas, but also this is how I can help you get.[00:15:00]

Yeah. And it’s one of the reasons

Jo: why I even like the, um, like the title of the, one of the programs that, that, that, that you run that, like you find your fire. I think you’ve gotta have a fire. Yeah. I mean, I, I

Nicola: work for an

Jo: enormous company with a huge number of super smart people. I really, really do. Yeah.

And to be able to kind of stand out, you have to have that fire in your belly. Yeah. To be able to, to be able to say, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll do it. And I think that when I kind of look back on my, on my career, the two words that kind of leap out to me that I’m, I’ve always tried to have is I’ve tried to be courageous and I’ve always tried to be kind.

Yeah. And I don’t think that that, that, that you can’t be one that I think that the fact that, but try and be one without the other, you, it is, is difficult for me because I, I think I am an innately kind person. I want, I want, I want things to go well, but I also think the fact that I have to be courageous cuz it’s, it’s not just me.

I’m being courageous for. Yeah. I, I mean, I, I have, I have young daughters, I say young they’re 30 so, uh, [00:16:00] they’re not that young, but, um, but I, but I feel that I have to be courageous role model. For them. I, I, I have to be sort of if, if they wanna do something, I, I love the fact, my youngest, um, Lucy, as you, you know, her she’s a, she’s a solicitor.

And she was, uh, she was interviewed by the local press when she got her her job. Um oh, amazing. And they said, yeah, it was great. And they said that sort of, who are the influences in, in, in your life? Um, and Lucy’s my, my stepdaughter and what I thought was wonderful was the fact that she named her mom and.

Oh, I love that. And it’s, it’s like in her life, she’s had two really, really strong yeah. And very different characters of, of females who have really sort of like been, been those role models for her to have that level of courage, to be able to go and do things that, that sort of, she might not have thought that, that, that she could do.

And so that’s sort of, one of my proudest moments is being able to look at somebody else. Yeah. Someone so important to me as Lucy, and to be able to say the fact that I got everything I did. Kind of, if it’s helped her, then that’s the best, that’s the best feedback I

Nicola: could ever get. Yeah. [00:17:00] And we also, um, Kirsty that you mentioned that we also interviewed, and we were talking about for women that are very senior, there’s a job, and there’s gonna be a demanding job that places a lot of pressures on you.

And, you know, we’ve talked about changing priorities, all those, all those big things that come with it, but there’s also that sense, a job plus, so women, people around the business are looking to. Women around you gonna be inspired by you or people are gonna be aspired to be like you, cuz you are, you are getting, you are there where they want to be.

So there’s almost that extra element. I think when you’re a woman at the very top that there is that job, plus of speaking on panels or, you know, mentoring people that aren’t as senior in their career at the moment, or, you know, have those aspirations or just speaking out and sharing that lived experience of what it’s like to be a woman.

That’s in a very male dominated industry. And just, is that extra part of the job? Do you, obviously, you, you love you very involved in diversity and inclusion anyway, and you’ve done a lot of great stuff. Do you see that as something really important with that role modeling and that [00:18:00] step beyond the role?

Jo: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that sort of, you have to be the voice and it may sound a little, a little, a little bit trite, but you’ve gotta be for the voice for people who don’t feel they haven’t once. Yeah. And so sometimes I find the fact that I have to almost like be over what I actually want to be, but it, it it’s case of even just like calling out behavior, which you don’t think is appropriate.

Yeah. Or challenging people on, on behavior, on behavior as, as well. Because I know that when I saw people. Do it, that again gave me that smidge more courage and that smidge more courage every single time to think. Well, actually, I, I, I do believe in myself and I do believe that I should be treated to, or spoken to or, or anything like that.

And again, it, it goes across all levels of equality. Yes. And diversity as well is the fact that so sort of like, I mean, I was so lucky. I, I worked, um, in Vodafone island for, for four or five years or so. Um, and they have a really, really strong female CEO, Anna lyric, who is a sadly [00:19:00] moving on, but half of her senior leadership team were females and very strong females.

But what you also have with all of the allyship, from the. Yeah. And so the, the, the, the sort of there, wasn’t this kind of like, this is a manufacturer at half and half. It was a very, you could see why these women were there and you could see that the fact that the men backed them, appreciated them. But also as I, I was talking to somebody today.

So they, I was, when I was talking to some of the male directors, he said, I’ve got daughters. I don’t want my daughters to have to afford as hard as the women who I see from my generation. So, so, so anything that I can learn, anything I can support, anything that I can role model back to my children is really important, but also role modeling back to the boys as well, to say, you have to have a quality in everything and it’s, it’s, it’s not pie.

It’s not sort of like, like no more pie for me means less pie for you. Nice. It’s sort like it’s, it’s, it’s, he’s clus the title and it really

Nicola: equality. Yeah, exactly. And that’s [00:20:00] not. And again, some of the conversation I’ve had is almost like, well, you know, we can work towards gender parity, but there’s almost that inclusivity is even wider than that.

And broader than that, almost getting to the point where we have that gender parity, it’s like, well, that’s gonna lead into bigger discussions about. You know, people from different backgrounds, different ethnicity, um, if they’re disabled, it’s like, well, that, to me, it’s, it is almost like if we can, if we can get to the point where there’s parity here, that’s gonna lead on just parity across all those different areas that I think is just someone is going into a job because they’re the best person for that job.

Not because of, you know, what, what else they bring to it. It’s like you are the best person for this role.

Jo: Mm. Yeah. And, and, um, and again, going back to, to Ireland, I remember speaking to, um, and it was, uh, the time, um, Ireland just really kind of led a lot of the way on, um, a lot of diversity and inclus and inclusivity with a lot of local referendum.

And whilst I was there, they had a referendum on making abortion. In Ireland, a massive, massive topic of discussion. And it was [00:21:00] tremendously emotional for a lot of people. Yeah. And I was speaking to friends of mine who were in the L G B T community. And they were absolutely outing force to support pro-choice.

And their view was the fact that when the referendum sort of a few years earlier for gay marriage came out, the fact that they know that they would never have got that vote through, if it wasn’t for other, um, diversity in other groups, really getting out, supporting to them and talking to them. And I loved that because I thought that’s a real, tangible example of how everybody lifts everybody up and everybody has, and everybody has a voice.

So it it’s. Can I say the fact that you might not think that the quality. Directly impacts you at this particular moment, but impacts millions of people. It really, and it impacts sort of millions of people very differently in different countries and different communities. So being able to think sort of a lot wider about the impact that you have in as an individual, I think is a really privileged position.

Yeah. For us.

Nicola: [00:22:00] Absolutely. Um, what would you say? So getting up, working your way through the different ranks and getting to the great position you’re in now, what, what do you think have been your biggest challenge? I

Jo: see my, my, my biggest challenges, I would kinda say though, that kinda not caring about people’s opinion.

Yeah. Um, I can get very affected. So by if I get negative feedback, I can take it too much to heart. Yeah. And it becomes a little bit all consuming. And I know that there there’s loads of sort of like sociological studies that say the fact that, oh, that that’s kinda like a defense mechanism kind of thing.

Yeah. But one bad meeting does not a career make. Kind thing. And we’ve all had times, you know, when you wanna go home and like sit there with a blanket over your head and a bottle of wine go, oh, yes.

Nicola: Back. I think you were around for some of those

Jo: they should have a wine fridge at work. Should they? so getting so one of my biggest challenges is kinda perspective when I’ve had maybe in my mind, what I would consider to be a bad meeting, which.

And, you know, sometimes it was, I mean, sometimes [00:23:00] going in just like bad plan, but other times the fact that people would say, oh, actually I thought it was just a great discussion. Whereas I would come out thinking, well, why did you attack me? And they’re like, that’s noting Joe. That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s a constructive conversation.

So I would say the fact that being able to have a good perspective on yes. Yeah. On how things went and how it affected me, because there’d be days when, when you’d go home, you think, well, I’m, Rubb. I obviously, I obviously can’t do this, um, sort kind of situation. So probably my biggest battles to overcome have always been with with myself.

Yeah. Um, I have never felt discriminated. I have never felt, but in somebody’s mind, there was somebody saying we’re not gonna give that to her. She’s a girl. And Vodafone has a lot of training and policies in place. Yeah. And obviously it’s sort of a lot of women like, like me, who, who sort of hopefully are, are, are the people that could say to this that are living proof of it, but obviously you’ve got individual bias and that’s a hard thing to kind of [00:24:00] get around.

But I also remember that when Steve and I decided that we, we wanted to have children, we had to go down the IV. And we did it for nearly 10 years on and off. And, um, I had a lot of miscarriages, um, and at the same time, obviously trying to bring up, um, sort of, um, um, Amy, Lucy as well. And that was a really, really hard time.

And I would say that, although I don’t have biological children, is that the fertility issues massively impact your career? Yeah, because I would say that for 10 years, the only thing I cared if I was trying to get. I stay pregnant and I didn’t put my hand up for anything. I didn’t go for anything. I had no thoughts, even, even now I was thinking, oh, can’t change my car.

Cause I need a car that I can get car seat into. Yeah. Even can’t can’t move house. Cause this house is perfect for, for baby. And my life was on hold. Absolutely and hold. And then when we finally made the decision

Nicola: not, not to,

Jo: um, not to carry on anymore, it was bad for my health and bad, bad for just us really first thing [00:25:00] that we did when, and almost needed, needed to have like a cut that said I’m done.

I can’t, I can’t do that anymore. Yeah. And then I really focused on my career. So I would say the fact that that’s something, I, I definitely feel that I have a 10 year. Because of what I tried to do. And I would say that that’s given me a, a massive insight into women who are building families, trying to get pregnant.

Yeah. Going through fertility or go through the menopause I’m through now is the fact that that has a huge impact on, on you at work. And there’s, and that’s not really about equality. There’s only kinda one of you who’s who’s gonna go, gonna go through it. Yeah. But it makes me a lot more understanding and I try as much as I can.

Be as, um, yeah. Understanding and kind of, how can I help. Around those. So those are the two things that, that I would say. Yeah.

Nicola: Oh, I love that. Thank you for your honesty. I, all of that huge. You [00:26:00] got as well got. Cause that really hugely resonates for me. So thank you for sharing, but I do think there’s, I, I’m very fortunate.

I love the women that I work with and they’re, they are change makers. They are gonna be the women that change world women like you. But I think there’s also the bigger part of work that I would love to do more is almost like. Being organizations, having those discussions about it’s almost like women have such defined life stages, some biological, some by choice that actually, how do we support women from that early part of their career?

How do we make sure they’re being authentic and real and true, not, you know, that early part of influence and how do we make sure that you show up and you leaders who you are. Then into, um, around children getting married, potentially moving and then into kind of menopause. And there’s all these different stages that I think it’s almost for organizations to really be honest and look at how do we support women through those different stages of their life?

Cuz actually such huge changes and you know, how do we know that other, how do we make sure other people have that understanding? So what policies are there [00:27:00] around. Fertility for example, or how do we make sure everyone’s aware of the impact menopause can have, and it’s not just down to someone having a conversation with their boss, but you know, what can we do to make sure there’s already that understanding?

And there’s this, there’s an understanding. So it’s that empathy rather than that sympathy. And I think that’s the. The big part of work to do, you know, it’s, I, I love the leadership programs that I run. Absolutely. But I think there’s that cultural shift of, and even down to, you know, if actually, if a man’s going off in fraternity and coming back, how do we make sure that people are supported through those life stages that are so important that that’s in an industry that moves really quickly, that’s gonna develop that loyalty.

And actually, this is someone I just wanna keep working for, cuz there’s always that support mechanism.

Jo: Yeah, I think it’s really important talking about paternity leave. One thing, um, the photo fund introduced recently was I, I think it’s is either four months or six months of paternity leave for, for the guys.

And what I loved about the conversation. Again, coming back to like the allyship was I was having a conversation with a couple of guys who were going off on it and [00:28:00] they were really worried about the impact this would have on their. They were really worried the fact that they were gonna be out of the office for like a minimum.

They tend to take like two month, um, periods of time. And they were just like, well, well, what if like projects come up? What if, um, a promotion comes up? What if a job comes up? Will I miss out? Will I have this? And I think that, I thought that it was such a wonderful turning conversation. Yeah. Yeah. To be able to have.

Cause I thought that’s what every female feels, the fact that they go off on maternity and everyone’s like, oh, I’ll be back in six months. And you just like, enjoy it. Enjoy your time with your baby, with your family, with your unit. And again, I think having these changes at quite a big social level enable that conversation.

Cause one of our, actually one of our directors is actually take making the most of it. And I think that he’s a wonderful role. Yeah. Um, because he’s got, he does a massive job, really important job, but he’s like, I’m taking time off with my wife and, and my baby and the things that I, again, I thought was really important was on his outta office.

He says, I am enjoying my

Nicola: paternity leave. Oh, I love

Jo: that. [00:29:00] Well, and I thought, what great. Example’s not just I’m outta the office until it’s just like, I’m enjoying my paternity leave. And I thought, what great example that is to young men. Yeah. Within the organization to think, oh, actually, and I have a baby that’s okay.

Because such and. Took it. And I, and I think that’s, that’s the, that’s kind of the lovely things about equality because. Equality changes. I mean, so like 40 years ago, what people were fighting for is different to what we’re fighting for now or what people are struggling with now. And it, and it’s lovely to be able to see the changes and what you are, you are enabling and for like the graduates that come through yeah.

For them paternity leave will now be a normal thing. Amazing. Maybe something that, that they’ll wanna discuss. And, but you think for loads of us, it’s, it’s, it’s very, very new. And so I, I really like.

Nicola: Yeah. And I’ve, I know some organizations also have shared paternity for some of the women that I’ve interviewed recently.

So take a year, so six months between them. So things like that, that can work really, really well. Um, and do you think as well, do you think within obviously with [00:30:00] tech and telecoms being so fast moving, do you think there’s a, a particular type of woman that is needed to kind of thrive within that? Or do you think it is down to organizations creating those frameworks?

Very good question. Cause it’s almost like we know like priority one, one day within a couple of weeks, you’re working really hard on it. The team, you know, you’ve got your strategy. This is the direction team are delivering and then, oh, uh, it’s now priority. It’s not priority anymore. This is now priority.

Right? Galvanize the team. Let’s go again. .

Jo: Swan, like, I think is what we, we, but if I ever said 5%, my team like a WhatsApp, that’s just got a wan on it. We’re all just like on,

I think, I think you are right. The fact that, and I don’t think it is necessarily just for tech, but probably you see it a lot more because we’re cause tech encomp. Such a huge kinda thing. And again, that’s one of the nice things that we do. Um, I think with the women’s [00:31:00] networks, when we go out and we work with stem, the science technologies of engineering and, and maths, when you’re talking to kids in primary school and you, and you sort say, so what do you wanna, where do you wanna work?

And they say, oh, I wanna work in sports. Do you like, do you know how important tech is to sports? Do you know how important engineering and, and things like that sports, and to be able to have that conversation to say, do you know what any world or any industry you wanna go into? Tech will be massively important.

So having the stem skills is a fabulous thing for you to go and enjoy. Um, and so I think that I, you have to massively resilient. You have be sort of it’s it’s as you say, it’s the ability to kind. Quite quickly and to be able to gather your thoughts and go, okay. Right. What do I know? That will help me.

What don’t I know who do I know that might know what I dunno, coming back to your networks. Yeah. Just like phoning somebody up and go. Do you know what the hell this is?

Days? [00:32:00] Cause I’ve gotta present. In about days, time. And I don’t even know what the acronym means. That kinda thing oh, good times. Yeah. Hilarious. Just go again. Walking in Swan. I can go, well, of course, all of, you know, what AR is. Um,

Nicola: and so it’s saying Google, Google.

Jo: Yeah. Um, I think that sort of like having that kind of resilience, having also the sort of like it’s maybe just the maturity, the age that I, that I am married, you kinda say actually.

So what’s a rational expectation of myself. Really? The fact I’ve got 24 hours to learn this new thing. I am gonna learn five things about it. Yeah. And when I go in and I do this presentation, I am gonna lay out what I am gonna tell you. So, so Hey, go board. I’m gonna tell you five things about this. I’m still investigating it.

I’m still doing it. These are the five things that I know. And I’m going to talk to you about, cause I think that an important skill life skill to have in such a fast moving industry is to accept. You will never know. Ever. Absolutely. So, but be proud of what you do though. Be proud of what you, you do [00:33:00] understand, take the feedback on board, um, and, and, and learn and learn as you go, having an inquiring, curious mind.

We have days that are called spirit days. We have card days. Yeah. And they, and they’re great. Cause it’s a day every month. And then we have one on a quarterly basis for the whole of the company. It’s the fact that you devote it to you, your learning your wellbeing, and you don’t have internal meetings.

And my friends and I call it the, we don’t have to brush our hair. I don’t have to go on teams on day. Jackie’s on. And it’s fantastic because I go on and I learn, right. Okay. How do I use power BI what’s sort, what’s the difference between like me and edge and what’s all. And I can go on and I can make time to learn this and I can make time to invest in me and in my team, which again, Me the fact that in three weeks time, when suddenly when I get that, this is now an urgency, I’m just like, do remember something about that coming back to kinda your [00:34:00] requirement on you is you need to keep, you gotta keep learning and to be fair, really that’s really important skill to have throughout your life.

Be curious enough to want to know something else.

Nicola: Yeah, I love that couple of final questions. So with your, we are talking about approaching 50 and you have 10 years think around 10 years. What would you, what do you wanna achieve in your, in your 10 years? Do you think.

Jo: I wanna be a director. Yeah. That’s that’s, that’s my thing is about that.

I have that. This has been my goal and I, I, I could just say when I’m talking to like my, our HR talent team is I kind of view my career as a bingo card. I mean, I’ve worked, I’ve led teams in product I’ve led engineering teams. I’ve led tech. Technical teams I’ve led commercials, sales, marketing insight. I think I’ve, I’ve kinda got the ticks in the boxes that, and, and, and I, and I am confident enough the fact that again, if I don’t have the skills right now, I can get whatever [00:35:00] skills needed, love that.

And, and sometimes people could sort say, does that come across as arrogant? And I think no, cause arrogant is no substance. Mm you’re.

Nicola: Owning your skills. You’re owning your impact. Yeah. And don’t be

Jo: afraid to own what you’ve worked phenomenally hard for and probably think of what you’ve sacrificed for.

Yeah. As, as well. It’s like never be, be ashamed to be proud of you. I love that. I love

Nicola: that. And finally, do you have a final message for anyone listening today? Anyone,

Jo: anyone listening today? I would say the fact that work is massively important is it’s hugely important. I get a lot of thrill out of it. I get a lot of, a lot of, um, joy and I’ve met some wonderful friends like UN and that, that, that are out of it.

It’s an enabler for a good life. And I think that sort of the people who you touch throughout your career, if you are kind and you are courageous for them, and with them, you leave the best legacy. Oh, oh

Nicola: my gosh. I’ve got [00:36:00] goosebumps. That’s amazing. Thank you so much. But if you want to find out more about Joe and what she does and just follow her she’s um, on LinkedIn and she just shares some good stuff.

So follow over there, but thank you so much for your time today, Joe. It’s just. Blown me away. Like I, I knew it would. So, um, and just, I knew we’d giggle and, uh, giggle and chat away through it so much. I’ve loved it. I really

Jo: enjoyed it. Nick. Thank you so much for giving

Nicola: me the, oh, you’re welcome. You’re welcome.

If you love what I have to say, and you like to find out more about working with me, easiest way to do that is to book a, get to know you call. So there’s a link to that in the show. I can help you through working with your organization to help close the gender pay gap through women’s leadership programs to help empower your women at the top, to be more influential, impactful leaders, and really own their leadership identity.

Or I can create workshops around confidence around [00:37:00] emotional intelligence, creating a career strategy or developing your own leadership identity. Or I can work one to one or group coach your senior leaders to help them to overcome a very specific problem, or just again, really own their own leadership identity.

Or I can work with you one to one. I do work with a small number of private clients, and you can work with me either on my shorter focus coaching program, where we pick one specific thing and we just really focus in on it and help you to move past it. Or my deep dive final five VIP program. Which really gets the root cause of what’s holding you back and also helps you to create a very, very clear idea of what you want for the future.

And within that, your leadership identity, the results that I get from clients are as varied as they are brilliant. I’m incredibly proud of them. So some examples. A client being promoted twice. Within the six months, they worked with me, another client being invited to join the board. Another [00:38:00] client being offered a brand new role that wasn’t available to anyone else with a big promotion and a big pay rise and a client that was pushed out of an organization to then being offered three dream roles that they could choose from.

And finally a client that decided that the corporate world wasn’t for her anymore and helping her to re get really, really clear in what she wanted and sell a new company that she’s absolutely in love with. If you are not quite ready to work me yet, that’s absolutely. Okay. You can download my overwhelmed Onfi guide, which is.

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And things that I’m reading or watching. So that’s a great way to in touch and a few quotes. My clients, I can talk about what I do all day. I absolutely love it. One client said, well, thank you for the transformation [00:39:00] who I am now at home and at work is who I am meant to be. I can feel it. And that difference is just incredible.

Thank you for what you do, Nick, for another client who just stepped into a new exec director. Her quote was, it felt like I was wearing a coat that didn’t fit. It was a coat that was new. That didn’t quite fit me, that I didn’t feel that I was good enough for now. I step proudly stand tall and proud of who I am wearing that coat of leadership.

I am confident to speak up. I am the right hand woman of the CEO, and I have that coat that just looks great and I feel it fits and I am just incredibly empowered leader. So thank you so much. So if you are looking to get some help, just to be that most impactful and influential leader or help women in your organization, by closing that gender pay gap.

Do Booker get to know you call me all the details of this or in my show notes. I can’t wait to work with you. Um, I thank you for listening.[00:40:00]