Nicola: [00:00:00] Hello, hello, hello and welcome to Women at the Top of Telecoms and Tech, my podcast, and I am your host. I am Nicola Buckley. And. I will be score CO. By now. . I am Nicholas’s score co. Uh, recently married and I help telecoms and tech organizations recruit, retain, and develop women at the top and future talent to close the gender pay gap and to create a more inclusive culture.

Yeah, wedding is a whole nother story and all four dates. Um, but yes, we have made it. We have done it. I have now Mrs. Scorecard, which is very exciting, but. Let’s move on to focus on today’s subject, which I think is something I’ve kind of realized for a while and something. I think happens to a lot of my clients in different ways.

And I really want to talk about today, and we’re gonna be [00:01:00] talking about today, the double bind dilemma for women in leadership. So you might be thinking, what are you actually talking about today? What does it actually mean? Nick? And you might have experienced some of this, so let me explain a little bit to, just to start of, So it’s.

The old saying of you are damned if you do, and you’re damned if you don’t. So for women, there’s this double bind in leadership that you are either too soft and you are too compassionate and you let people get away of things or rough ride over you, or you are too tough. In which case you are assertive, you are aggressive.

Um, you can be a bit of a bitch, but you are never just right. You’re never exactly the right amount of whatever you need to be. So it’s three different areas to this really at the heart of it. But there was a report put together on it. An incredible website that I use a lot called Catalyst, and this went into it did some research around just the gender stereotypes around leaderships and [00:02:00] those gender stereotypes, creating several challenges for women leaders because we’re often evaluated against a masculine standard of leadership.

So women are often left with limited and favorable options about creating their own style leadership. So no matter how they behave, No matter how brilliant they, they perform and deliver as leader. It’s still these three different predicaments and challenges that pit women into a double bind. That can really stifle some of their leadership potential and just lead them into doubting themselves and lacking that confident, um, and really limit their opportunities to advance and to get to that most senior level and to be in those boardrooms and to be in those big, powerful conversations.

So what are these three different predicaments? So let’s have a look at each of them in. So the first one around just the extreme perceptions of women and women as leaders. So women either perceived as too soft or too tough, but never just. [00:03:00] That’s the first one. The second one then is the high competence threshold.

So women leaders face higher standards and lower reward than male leaders, so women have to constantly prove themselves. They always need to be delivering. They need to almost become a unicorn of having this huge, vast experience when they’re moving into a new industry or new role. Much more than men need to have more years of experience behind the more relevant experience, be able to demonstrate bigger deliverables, almost as an element of not trusting.

So need to be that higher competence threshold. And the final one is competent, but disliked. It’s very challenging for women Leaders are even perceived as confident, a light, but rarely both together. So this is what we’re gonna delve into more today, and we’re gonna look at these three different challenges and details.

Um, what can be actually done about them. So let’s start the very beginning. So let’s start with Partica number [00:04:00] one. So these extreme perceptions of women as leaders. So two soft. Too tough, but never just right. So when women act in ways that are consistent with gender stereotypes, they’re often viewed as as less competent leaders.

So too soft. So we know that women as leaders have a more inherent tendency to have what we’re known traditionally softer skills that are now called power skills. So things like compassion, things like connect. Empathy, understanding, vulnerability, intuition. So all of these softer skills lead into that assumption that women are less competent leaders because they’re too soft, because they can be talked over because they can just get emotional and react to things.

So this sense that women leaders are too soft, and then when women act in ways that are inconsistent with such stereotypes considers unfeminine. It’s not ladylike, it’s not appropriate. It’s almost [00:05:00] too tough. And I know in when I was in corporate well, I was given feedback that when I was overly assertive and just, you know, very direct asking for something very direct, stating what I needed and when I needed it.

When I was very direct in my emails, I was aggressive, which I kind of found ironic because, If it was a similar behavior from a man, would that just be seen as direct and cutting to the chase? But for me it was, it’s not something, you know, it’s not something we’re comfortable seeing. It’s not something we want encouraging you.

So it’s that unfeminine. So too tough. So what this brings me back to really that the extreme perceptions of too soft, too tough, never just right if you’re gonna be judged anyway, which we are judged against those stereotypes that we’ve talked about. If you’re gonna be judged as a women leader anyway, be judged for being who you are.

So at the heart of the work that I do with my clients and on leadership programs and in workshops, I’m [00:06:00] essentially teaching leaders to leaders who they are. So it’s almost beyond authentic. It’s beyond that sense of I will be authentic. It’s just you’re simply being yourself. You’re being true. You’re being real to who you are.

You know your values and you’re showing up with them. You’re aligning to them more and more, and you’re letting go of what doesn’t align with them, and that’s at the heart of your leadership style. It’s accentuating all those brilliant parts of who you are and not so much focusing on those, those elements that you find more challenging.

So for me, how do we get past this challenge? We get past this challenge by helping women to have an absolute sense of who they are, to become the world leading expert in knowing themselves, to then create a really, really clear. Leadership identity based on that, based on your values, based on your beliefs, based on your story, based on your language, based on your magic, because then it’s not that you’re gonna be [00:07:00] judged anyway for being certain way.

So let’s help you to create a leadership identity that you can be proud and tall and stand proud and tall behind it. This is. As the, you know, as the song goes, This is me, this is who I am, and this is how I’m gonna show up as leader. So then you’re gonna show up more, speak up more, and shake things up within your organization.

So how do we get past this challenge? Number one, that too soft, too tough, never just right, And some steps to get you started. You can start to think about your values. You can start to think about what’s important to you. What do you want to stand for? What do you want to stand against? Because then you’re gonna be judged for being yourself.

And how can you, where are you wearing a mask at work? Where are you not being yourself? Where are you changing your behavior and changing who you are? What steps can you take to be more of yourself? Bring all of who you are to work because that’s when you’re gonna be the most impactful leader. That’s where people see you as authentic, [00:08:00] and true and real, and be inspired by you.

So that’s challenge number one. Challenge number two was this high competence threshold. So women leaders face higher standards and lower rewards than men leaders. Women are faced these higher competency standards on top of Chip doing the job. Women have to prove that they can lead a division and area over and over again.

They have to demonstrate their ability to deliver. They have to show that they can set and lead the strategy of an organization. They have to show that they can deal with huge challenges that happen and emergencies and you know, situations that are really. Not where the organization expected to be. They have to prove their leadership ability, not just once, not just twice, but over and over again.

So it’s almost that the double bind for women of not just getting to that, uh, leadership position, but proving and demonstrating and delivering just constantly, [00:09:00] which can lead to overworking over delivering, being in the hustle mode, hustling for your worth, as B. Brown would call it. Just something to be aware of.

Where do you feel that you are having to prove and demonstrate that over and over again? And also having to manage stereotypical expectations constantly. So we refer back to that too soft, too tough. So you are measured against a framework that is just a stereotype of how you should be as a female leader.

So you are having to manage reactions to. You’re having to manage people’s assumptions about you and what they’re expecting to see what they versus what they actually see. So how can women start? How can women leaders start to step past this high competency threshold? There’s a few things to think about here.

One of them is around you knowing and owning your own values. So have a listen to the episode, podcast episode that we did on that. And as part of that, one of the things that I work with clients on is helping. Helping them to know who they already [00:10:00] are. So we have an exercise specifically for that where I help women at the very top really go back through their history and look at their wins, look at the challenges and the thing they’ve overcome, what they’ve delivered, and really step to own that and trust that and be able to remind people of that.

Rather than just being in the day to day and the delivery, being able to step away from that and really know that you’ve had this huge impact, know that you are really influential and just step into that and have the energy and, and not being afraid to say no. If you are given a project outside your area and it’s not something that you want to focus on, it’s okay to say no, but it’s okay to turn down an opportunity.

It doesn’t feel right for you. And how to manage stereotypical expectations. Just really to challenge them and just to, I don’t wanna say pick your battle cause it sounds adversarial, but choose the times that you call people out. Choose those times that you remind people that that’s not a way to behave.

That actually you aren’t gonna write the [00:11:00] notes for that meeting because you’re the only woman in the room. You’re not gonna grab someone a cup of tea because you’re the only woman in the. So knowing that actually in managing those stereotyped expectations, you also have a role to play in calling out some of the behaviors, some of the assumptions, some of the language, some of the statements that are made to really help reset those stereotypical expectations and know that there’s a different way to accept if you are accepted as you are, other women will be accepted as they are, and that feeds into the wider inclusion that everyone be accepted as who they are.

This is that psychological safety. And then challenge number three is around competent but disliked. So women leaders are perceived as confident or likable, but rarely both. And. In responding to this, uh, part of the survey comments revealed that when women behave in ways that are traditionally valued, for as leaders like assertive, setting a clear strategy, closing down conversations, keeping people on point, they tend to be seen as really competent.

They tend to see, seen as [00:12:00] having some really valuable skills, but then that drops away and takes away from almost diminishing. How they can be effective in building relationships and having really great connections with people than women who adopt a more stereotypically feminine style. So it’s almost like women have to choose between.

Having these great skills and, you know, assertive but actually makes them cold, makes can make them a bit of a bitch. You know, all those sort of labels. So it feels like we chose, pushed into choosing one or the other. And actually I talked to a client yesterday, this brilliant woman is, uh, in a relatively new role.

She set up and created a division that’s functioning really well. Some of that now, um, works with without her, cuz she set it up in such a brilliant way and she feels like she. Has to act in a certain way to be seen, to be heard. So we went for it yesterday and broke it down. And actually that’s an as.

Those are assumptions that she’s making and she’s changing her behavior, so she’s almost, she’s helping to. [00:13:00] Keep that structure going. She’s helping to make her, actually, yes, this person is at that level and they behave in this way. We have them break it down by showing something different to knowing that it’s okay that she has chats and conversations when she goes into the office.

It’s okay that other people from other teams approach her because she is very approachable, because people like her and they feel safe with her, and actually knowing that that’s a brilliant. Seeing the real positive in that. That’s a brilliant part of her as a leader. So what can you do about it? So let’s talk about some strategies to overcome these challenges.

So, When asked about strategies to use, um, to deal with this double bind, women leaders talked about a few different things. So number one, so talking openly about the issue and calling things out. So this is where it’s your role to not just show up, but to speak up. And like I said, I don’t like the language of pick your battles, but almost choose where your energy goes.

So if that’s an appropriate. [00:14:00] A statement that is generalizing about women’s abilities or a sexist comment, Bring it out into the open, call it out. Have a conversation with that person. Help them to realize and see that that’s not appropriate. That’s not the language that we use anymore. So just talk openly about these issues.

Don’t let these things, like you’re not gonna have the energy to challenge everything ever, but you can have the energy to just, when there’s something that is really. Not what you’d want another woman or someone from a minority in the organization to experience. Call it out. Speak up. When you speak up, you start to shake things up.

So talking openly about the issue. Number two, show them and demonstrate that there’s a different way of being a woman leader. So become really visible. Showcase your skills, promote what you and your team are delivering brilliantly. Remind people of your accomplishments and seek those really high level visible [00:15:00] projects.

The company changing work, the roles that are incredibly visible at that board level and speak up at meetings. And if you’re worried about speaking up at meetings, know that you don’t need every single answer. You can just be a contributor. You can just help that flow a conversation. You can offer a different perspective.

You don’t need to know every single answer. Number three, use clear and effective communication. So let people know what you want. So we’ve talked about this in a lot of podcast episodes now it’s about getting clear on your career strategy, what you want, what areas you want to focus on, where you wanna get to, and then talking to it, speaking it, sharing it.

If you’re a bit weird like me, you’ll know that that is feeding into the law of manifestation and the universe. But also for people around you if they know where you wanna get to. They’re gonna help you to get there, or they’re gonna tell you where you need to focus and what you might need to work on and let people know what you want.

Talk about the projects you want to work on, your [00:16:00] aspirations, where you want to create a legacy, what you want your career development to be. And ask questions. Get to know people in that area. Create that development network of people that are gonna help you to get there. Uh, number four. So shift the attention away from gender.

So, You obviously confronting stereotypes in the workplace. Both individuals and organizations need to take action, but you need to, you can obviously focus on yourself, but just you being a woman in a very senior role is, is you are talking by doing, you’re demonstrating by being in the role and delivering so, Then you can start to really speak to organizations, speak to that very senior team about how to create strategies, how to create policies, what do women need to really close that gender pay app, to see more women on the board, to have more women than John’s , as Foote 100 CEOs.

And what can organizations do to [00:17:00] support that as well? So shift away from gender, focus on doing your job. Focus on that job plus part as well. So encouraging speaking on the panels, sharing your story, being visible across the organization. So just demonstrate someone that’s a positive impact and influence across the whole organization, across the company.

But it’s not just about you being a woman. That’s about being someone who’s just a brilliant leader. And what about strategies for companies and organizations as well? So, Companies can use following strategies to address these double buying dilemmas. And this is areas that I work with organizations on.

So obviously we have, we’ve talked a lot about what women can do, but I always know in my work there’s two different areas. So me supporting women through leadership programs, through coaching, through workshops, through having support networks. But then there’s also. The organization as well. So you can’t change the culture as one person, [00:18:00] but you can start to challenge it and shape it, but you’re not gonna change that just on your own.

So it’s down to the company to create this environment where everyone as an individual with five is who they are. Whether if you are from a different ethnicity, a different background, however you identify, and all these different, different aspects of your life, whatever that is to you, you bring that to work and you know that you are safe to share those little elements of your, your life as well.

So what can companies do to address those strategies? So number one. Provide women leaders and other employees tools and resources to increase their self awareness, to increase the impact on people. So that could be, for example, unconscious bias training. That could be why is diversity inclusion so important?

Training. That could be awareness of ethnicity, awareness of G B T, for example. So it’s really about providing tools and resources to increase that learning and awareness so that you can adapt and change your own [00:19:00] behavior. Number two, assess their work environment to identify in what ways there are the stereotypes.

So where is this cropping up? Where is that behavior coming out? Is it at certain levels? Is it within certain areas? Are there certain more engineering or tech areas more biased because they’re more, there’s more men there because there’s less women. So really identifying. Where does this behavior come out more?

Where are women more prone to just be, have that stereotypical bias? Uh, number three, then create and implement innovative work practices that target stereotypical bias. So, This can be setting in place ways that behavior can be reported, um, ways that can be anonymous so you’re not feeling like you have to give a name and really supporting people to call out any types of behavior that inappropriate, that are uncomfortable that just really make someone feel like they’re just being.

Stereotyped that they’re just being assumptions are made [00:20:00] about them rather than just getting to know that person, that individual, and seeing what they do in the role and not just who they are. So that’s it for today. A bit of a shorter episode today, but I think this is super powerful. Just really talk about this double challenge for women leadership.

I would love to know what you think. All my details during the show notes. This is something in your organization that is a real challenge and there’s not women at the top. There’s not that succession planning and policies and process in place. That’s what I help organizations do. So the two parts I help organizations to really empower their women.

Um, so they have that clear pipeline of women, future leaders, and also leaders that are at the top having huge impact and will stay in the organization, and then the organization helping them to shift and change and develop their culture. So if that’s something that you need help with in your organization, do drop me a message.

All my contact details are in the show notes, and if you are new to the podcast, I do encourage you to leave a review so more women [00:21:00] can find us or share with a colleague you think would find this helpful or subscribe so that you never miss an episode. Yeah, thank you for today. I’ve really enjoyed talking about that.

I hope you did too. I’d love to know any feedback that you. Thanks so much. Bye.

Hi, it’s Nick here. I just wanna take a moment just to say thank you for listening. When I’m sat recording a podcast in the deepest steps of Cornal, it’s incredible to think that is reaching women across the world in 30 different countries, and we have thousands of downloads a month. So thank you so much for being part of that and being part of the audience means a world to me.

But I do want to grow this audience. I would love you to help me reach more women like you so that we can really drive positive change in the corporate world. So you can do that one of three. First of all, you can subscribe to the podcast. You never miss an episode. It’s always a new episode. It’s always delivered straight to your inbox.

You can review the podcast and leave us of rating. And the more [00:22:00] ratings we have, we also go up in the podcast charts. And finally, you can just share a favorite podcast with a peer, with a colleague, or on your social media. So I would love you to do that. Thank you for all your help. Um, I can’t wait for what’s next.