Sara: [00:00:00] Hello

Nicola: and welcome to, uh, Women at the top of Telecoms and Tech. I’m your host. I’m Nicola Score Coast, still getting used to the new name. And I work with women at the very top of organizations within telecoms and tech, helping them to really just achieve all their potential and have more. And more impacts.

They can be a real force of good. And also working with organizations to really just change structures and just support women across the organization, but also just increase diversity with different minority groups as well. So I’m really, really excited today. We’ve already had a really good chat this morning, so I’ve got a brilliant guest for me today.

I’ve got Sarah Jones here today with me, and she works with bt, so she’s the second lined mobile. Operations director and Sarah and I, we were, we had a conversation quite a few months ago now, just was part of a white paper that I’m putting together that hopefully will be [00:01:00] done by the end of the year. And I think we just really connected them so much and resonated.

I really wanted to get on the podcast cause I think there’s lots and lots of things that she can share that’s really gonna help our audience. So she was leader of the. 2022, so very, very recently has shiny award. She’s also a STEM ambassador and she’s doing some great work going out into schools and talking to young women about, you know, why actually telecoms and tech is a brilliant industry to join and why actually there’s a real diversity of career there as well.

She’s also a mentors. So she works with organizations like Cago and Aleto, and also part of the BT career returner program. And also she’s a DNI leader, so she’s just very, very focused on helping increase diversity across the organization and across the whole industry as well. And today our focus is just gonna be conversation around how she’s got to where she is, but also.

Just being really honest about why aren’t there more women at that most senior level, at the very top table? Cause it’s the conversation that we had. [00:02:00] Like I said, I think there’s so much led So welcome to the podcast today. I’m so excited

Sara: that you’re here. Thank you, Nicola. Thank you. It’s great to be here.

Very excited. . And there’s an intro. What? On intro . I, I’ve been

Nicola: asked before, Can you just turn off and introduce me wherever I go? And I’m like, Yeah, that’d be brilliant. To just be the fan fair and just, uh, talk you up. Cause just, yeah, we need more women to kind of really own all that brilliance. So, but can you just start by sharing, so obviously giving a bit of introduction to where you are in your career now and you’re, this is a really great place and you’re doing a brilliant job and a big job, but you’re also what we talked about like job plus almost a lot around diversity and encouraging women into the industry.

Can you just share some of the things that have brought you, some of the chapters that have brought you to where you are in your career now?

Sara: Yeah, sure. So, sort of going back, unfortunately, quite a few years ago now, um, sort of, I, I went to university and actually did a geography degree, had no career advice, did my easiest, a level at, uh, a degree , mostly , just to kind of get away, have [00:03:00] good fun, have the social side and play hockey.

And that was my focus. And then finishing my bachelor’s, I was thinking, Well, what am I gonna do? So, and I, and I haven’t got any, To be a teacher. So I was, I always loved tech, used to program but never really did it in, in reality. So I then come, I did a conversion masters in it and it was brilliant. And what that then it opened doors and I had, I did a, a master’s placement in what was Orange, the mobile phone company back then, and I was doing speech recognition technologies when it was tw, It’s 21 years ago and it was just, I thought I was super cool.

Yeah, love it. Yeah, it was, and it was just brilliant fun. Huge amount of responsibility and ownership and it was a great place to be. And you know, I was very, there wasn’t very many women, but it never really bothered me. I never had, I had a few, there was a few little things, but nothing that really sort of made me real, like, think I don’t wanna be here.

I, I, I, I had a place and I wanted to, and I wanted to, I wanted to be the best engineer that I could. So I was in design engineering. And then I sort of over the time became sort of, you know, the [00:04:00] top level engineer as such a sort of principal engineer, and, Sort of was asked actually, do I wanna manage the team?

Because it came up and I was like, Well, do I become a technical expert? Yeah. And an architect, or do I do that? And I, and I actually went to leadership and technical leadership and, and actually I thought, well, whats. Why not take that leap as I would say to others, take the leap and try it cuz what’s the harm you can always change again.

Yeah. So I did that and then that’s sort of where I’ve sort of ping ponged then through. So I, I was in sort of the des a design sort of, um, role for about 10 years. Yeah. Then I moved into something called network testing where we test load of different things. Yeah. Before we put things live. And most companies have that and then, Moving into operations, and I’ve been in an operational role now for seven years.

Absolutely brilliant. But move my work my way up bigger and bigger and bigger teams. Yeah. Um, and where I am now, sort of 160 people and we look after the EE Mobile network for the uk, you know, and I will say the biggest and best, but you know, it’s, it’s challenging. There’s not many women in operations and it is, I do sometimes wonder if it’s because [00:05:00] of the on call, the 24 7 nature of an operational role.

But actually what that means is it’s very flexible. And I think that’s, that’s, I think it’s opening people’s eyes to actually, because they’ve, you’ve gotta be flexible for them. They’ve gotta be flexible for you. And it’s a bit that’s give and take. So it, it works really well having a family, which I do.

So, Yeah. Um, Yeah, it’s, it’s, that’s sort of my, where I’ve got to now. Um, but I, you know, that’s my day job and I know people say don’t have enough time to do other things, but I, I disagree with that wholeheartedly. I think we can all do a bit more, I mean, my motto in life is, Do good, be kind. Yeah. Everyone can do a little bit more, Everyone can be a bit kinder and actually, yeah.

So, you know, the, the diversity and inclusion work that I do and the equality work. It’s bad cause I believe in it. I really feel quite passionately that can feel it for you. Absolutely. Yeah. Because everyone should have the same opportunities. It doesn’t matter, male, female, white, black. It doesn’t matter whether you’ve got disability or not.

You know, everyone should have that. And everyone can definitely [00:06:00] bring something to the table. And, um, you know, are as a, you know, a mobile network who has 30 million customers, our customers aren’t, you know, 99% aren’t white. You know, 51% of them are female, so why haven’t we got 50% in our organization?

Nicola: Oh, I hear you loud and clear.

And actually I did, um, I did a podcast episode, I dunno if it’s out yet, which is, what are the reasons for the business case reasons, if you like, from a corporate perspective? That we should have more women and more diversity, not just women, um, and gender. And part of that is, Are we potentially with telecoms tech losing touch with our audience?

Cause 50% of our, our market is women and they make a lot of the decisions, especially around the household. Yeah. Are we losing touch? Because actually we’ve got so many men that are very senior, but not as many women. So we’re kind of, we have that just a different perspective and not as much very senior people almost that the, the buyer and the purchaser for maybe for the home or maybe for those decisions for the families.

Yeah. So [00:07:00] it’s not just, this is for me. The work that I do with organizations, it just, it, I’m passionate about it because I think it’s the right thing. Like you said, it leads into wider diversity and inclusion for minority groups, not just men and women, but it’s also, this is not a nice to have anymore.

You are potentially a competitive disadvantage. Mm-hmm. if you aren’t looking and taking action on, on these minority groups and just including them more because you. If you’re not reflective of your customer base, you’re gonna get out of touch. You’re not gonna understand the nuances and the new demands that are coming through.

And so, yeah, for me it’s not just, it’s not a nice to have, We’re not just, um, you know, lip service to something. It needs to be at the heart of a, of an organization and you are, you are. HR strategy and your cultural strategy and your market strategy. Cuz otherwise you, you are just out of touch.

Sara: You are.

And it’s a financial impact. You know, and, and it, there’s loads of research, McKinsey and things do research on. Yeah. You know, if you have a gender diverse company versus an athlete diverse company as well. And, [00:08:00] and the impact it has on your revenues. And you’re right, it’s a must have and. And it’s only, I mean, we talk about it so much more than that, I would say the last five years, but really in the last three years, I think that the, I think I’ve always done a lot with girls to women in tech, but the last sort of three, four years, Black Lives Matters for me was the turning point to realize I was, I wasn’t being inclu as inclusive as I should have been.

I’m still learning. I think, yeah, everyone, you know, I tell, I talk to people. I’m always learning. I’m always asking questions of all my different diverse groups of colleagues and friends. I, I’m not perfect. No one’s perfect. Yeah, and I think the more we talk about things, the better. I think people are frightened to talk.

Different, different aspects of diversity and inclusion because they’re worried they’re gonna say the wrong thing. Yeah. But actually saying the wrong thing isn’t the problem. It’s not understanding and learning and educating yourself from it, you know? Yeah. Because we’re not perfect and, and it’s making sure people are having those conversations.

But the other thing for me is, the thing that probably bugs me the most in organizations is [00:09:00] talking and no action. And that’s gotta change. Yeah. You know, it’s gotta be more action. It’s gotta, it can’t just be talking. So a lot of companies now are putting in, you know, targets and quotes and, Yeah, I used to be so against that, but this, But do you know what, for many years we’ve tried to do make a change without such targets.

And actually it’s the only way to make a change is to have targets cuz it actually forces that change. It forces the issue. It forces people at the top to look at their management structure and the management team and go. Oh yeah. They’re all white men. Yeah. And it’s, and you know what, I’m not saying it, it should still be the best person for the job, but the problem is you’re not getting diversity at the interview table or at the table itself.

Yeah. And you know, and if you’ve got diversity there, you will naturally. Yeah. Diverse talent in your, in your senior leadership roles, but Absolutely. Cause that’s a missing, missing piece.

Nicola: Yeah, and I think from the work that I’ve done and the, the white paper that we’re putting together, it’s the attracting women [00:10:00] in, or the minority groups in at that, that start point, at that early age to then actually within the industry, so much variation.

We’ve been taking telecoms and so much variation, so many opportunities. It’s not just the big companies. There’s amazing companies that are smaller supporting the industry. Type companies as well. But then it’s also that retaining, especially at the moment with, you know, the Mass resignation and the great resignation and the War of talent has been called very dramatically.

It’s like, it’s, it’s that start point that how do we get people in and how do we retain them, because that’s where the numbers need to really shift and change. Um, you’re right. Yeah. Like you said, if you have a more diverse pool, you have more to choose from.

Sara: So you do, and you’re totally right from I. In BT and in other big companies getting diverse talent in now we’ve got so much better.

We’ve got great partnerships in place and it really works cuz you’re working with partners who are focused on specific areas, specific diverse talent pools, and it [00:11:00] works. The problem is retention, and there’s a couple of things, and I think it works for everyone, wherever, wherever you are, but it’s that mentoring and that networking Yeah.

And how important that really is. But, But companies need to have programs in place for diverse talent. Yeah. You know, it’s not saying everyone, it’s saying, I. You’re looking at diverse groups of people and you’re picking out key talent in that and make, and really supporting and championing those people to get to that leadership position.

Um, as women, you know what we are like, we’re always a little bit, we’re not good enough or can I do it? And how am I gonna juggle this? And because we have a lot of emotional sort of, you know, we take on a lot of that responsibility in the household and, and, and at work. But actually we all know. If we get given a chance, we do it and we work harder to prove ourselves.

Yeah. So we do a brilliant job, but it’s that, it’s the retention, it’s the, it’s the, it’s the networking. And I, I do think, I also think from a woman’s perspective, we don’t champion each other enough either. Mm. You know, I think when people [00:12:00] champion me, I’ve, I’ve seen the people who’ve championed me over the years.

They, they get out there and they will, they will speak about me and they’ll be the ones I won’t speak about myself. They’ll speak about me, and actually, I’m. Really sort of doing more of that now and know, championing others because that’s so important. We’re helping each other. Yeah. We should be out for ourselves.

We should be critical of other women. We should be championing them. Yeah. Not trying to find flaws.

Nicola: We don’t, We don’t know. And loses out through that. There’s enough, there’s enough opportunity for everyone. Yes. So it’s not, you know, it’s not, They choose me or they choose her. It’s like, no, it doesn’t work like that.

And to have people that when you’re not in the room that are saying the positive things and reflecting back on what you’ve delivered and the impact that you’ve had, that, that’s so, so powerful. Yeah. And if you, It’s almost reciprocal, isn’t it? It’s that, um, if you’re doing that for someone else, they’re gonna see that and just they’re gonna be doing that for you as well, so it’s Yeah.

No one loses out through that at all.

Sara: No, exactly. And it, it’s, it’s so powerful and I think I’ve really notice. The networking piece and [00:13:00] you know, networking both internally in your, in a company and externally is critically important nowadays, especially with social media, you know, we’ve got a platform to use.

Yeah. You know, LinkedIn is great, you know, and use it, you know, make connections like we have and, and with others and, and learn from each other, you know, and, and help your own career, but help other people’s as well. And I think it, I I, I’ve really been doing that in the last, probably only 12 months, but it’s, It’s been massively beneficial to my career too.

Yeah. And my confidence.

Nicola: Absolutely. Absolutely. I actually, I interviewed, um, another brilliant lady on, um, early this week, and she, she was saying one of the biggest things for her has been. That the networking, but also women supporting women or the, do you know, minority groups supporting other minority groups?

So we were talking about, you know, when there’s, you know, pride for example. It’s not just about your gender and your sexual, your sexual orientation. It’s actually, it’s a celebration of diversity. It’s not just about that group. [00:14:00] It’s like, why are we not just celebrating that as a point of

Sara: diversity? Yeah.

And, and I think that goes onto sort of allies, isn’t it? Because you know, it’s really important I think, whether, you know, having allies in, in all sorts of different sort of, you know, backgrounds is really important note. So I have male allies who will always champion me, but I’m an ally to so many different groups, like say the Pride, We have lots of networks of btm Sure.

A lot of big companies do, and, and smaller companies, but, you know, a key ally in the ethnic diversity network and, and in the pride and in a, we call it able to, but the disability network, you know, because, It’s so important to Yeah. But for me it’s about learning. I love learning. I love sort of understanding and educating myself because I think the other thing for me is social media in the news.

I don’t necessarily like it to a point It does. Yeah. Help pay my wages, because having a mobile phones is great, but, um, but we also, we sort of get sucked in by things that aren’t necessarily true. Yeah. So actually need to go and find itself, um, and not rely. Fake [00:15:00] news as such, or, or, and, and that’s really important.

I’d almost prefer to do that and speak to people. I like to talk cuz you can .

Nicola: That’s why we get on

Sara: so well. Yeah, . But it’s more, it’s, you know,

Nicola: I think it’s different hearing and lived experience from someone, isn’t it? And just like I didn’t realize as someone who. Has a disability that, that was really challenging for you.

How can we help, How can we help you with that? Cause that’s not, that’s not right. Um, and just be, almost take the voice of those people and just like broadcast it out. Cause actually this is, this is something really important. We want more talented people like that. We need to support them in their, their day to day experience working with

Sara: us.

Yeah. And, and, and on that, it’s like giving someone the, the platform where whoever you’re speaking to, whatever group they’re from, give them that platform to talk about that. And don’t, you know, I, I was speaking to someone the other day and, and she was, they were in part of the diversity network and they were, they were doing, you know, um, black history month planning that, and then someone’s coming in, What about disability?

What about this? And you think [00:16:00] that’s really, really rude and it’s really sort of actually quite offensive because what you’re saying, cuz. We’re not, we’re trying to give everyone a platform to speak and have a voice. And it’s about that. It’s not saying that other groups aren’t as important to, to focus on, it’s just saying this right now is the time to speak about this.

Yeah. And this is the action we need to take. You know, And it’s a bit like, I dunno if you get it much with people you talk to, you know, we talk about women in tech now, all about us men. Oh, so it meant now we feel like we are sort of discriminated against and I’m sort of saying, No, just take a moment. You just got a bit more competition and in, you know, And actually that’s a good thing because it means that everyone raises their game a bit.

Nicola: Exactly, exactly. And it is really interesting because some organizations I work with now, they’ve moved away from Women’s network. They actually have a gender 50 50 group now, which is effectively pursuing that, that target for this particular company of having a gender 50 50 split, especially at a senior level.

But what’s really interesting is that group is focusing on positive self development. So I went in and [00:17:00] talked to ’em about career strategy, for example, and it went brilliantly well, and they’re just a really, really supportive group. Like really, you know, applauding each other. Men and women both sharing experience and actually a lot of what they were struggling was really quite similar.

So it was, it was really interesting to go into that slightly different, rather than a women’s network that I might have spoke to quite a lot in the past, almost that slight shift. And that’s slight change. Mm-hmm. , but. , those are people with an appetite to change a company and develop themselves and be part of something bigger and make a real difference.

So that’s kind of what brought them together. Other different lived experiences, absolutely. But in this context, we can bring everyone together. And I think outside of that, they were creating a strategy, which is how do we. As men and women that are focused on this and supporting this particular work stream or this group, how do we move that forward together?

So it’s not, you know, and I, I don’t think any of my work, we’re not blaming men for where we are. It’s just we are where we are. And actually, you know, for so many more men and we, if we can raise, actually that’s not [00:18:00] quite appropriate behavior or just. You know, maybe mindful of the language or, I had a, a workshop that I rang just before I finished, um, for my, my time away, my month off.

And that was, um, one of the women just sharing. I, I got spoke over in a meeting a couple of weeks ago and I feel like it’s happened three or four times since, and I’m very aware of it and I’ve kind of, I can feel myself kind of introverting a little bit and shutting down because it’s almost what’s the point.

But the brilliant thing she did is just ring. Just have a think about what to do, kind of step away from all the emotion and oh my God, what’s the point? And I’m a failure. And you know, this isn’t the right company even on all this. And she stepped away from that and she thought, What can I do? And then she thought about a couple of people that were in the meeting, couple of men that she knew quite well, male colleagues, and she rang one of them and just said, If you think back to that meeting, and we were in this conversation, Do you remember this happening?

And you spoke over me who hadn’t even finished speaking, and he just said, I’m, I didn’t even realize. I’m so sorry, and thank you, thank you for raising that with me [00:19:00] because I wouldn’t have known so almost that unconscious, you know, there wasn’t an intention there. He said, I would, I, I really respect you and I value what you have to say.

So I really wouldn’t, I wouldn’t have done that intentionally. Yeah. So thank you for, you know, redirecting me and kind of prompted me to think about actually giving you space or giving you that support or, Yeah, and it was really nice as well. I think it was in the interview on Tuesday, we’re talking about if a woman’s speaking in a meeting, like maybe is another woman, we can almost preempt them or, um, so and so’s got a great point on this, or actually let’s refer back to what we were talking about earlier, and this person raised this point, so it’s almost

Sara: internally.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it, it’s really interesting, you know, like you talk about the young, they’re unconsciously not in doing things. Yeah. Whether it’s, you know, and. But you’re making them consciously think now. Exactly. It’s, isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I talk quite a lot about how there is still unconscious bias, don’t get me wrong.

Yeah. But I do think over the last few years that with a lot of, [00:20:00] you know, the work everyone’s doing some brilliant, great work that everyone’s doing to try and make people understand. To be more inclusive of everyone, You know, more of the biases are more conscious now. I mean, and biases are natural. We all, we absolutely, you know, naturally make judgements.

We can’t get away from that, but it’s, you tell yourself what might we doing? And then you, it’s so, it’s, it’s really conscious bias is, is kind of, I think, even bigger now. You know? And, and that’s because we’re all, we’re trying to educate and I think it’s really important to call out that type of behavior because, Whether it’s conscious or not, it’s not, It’s not okay, isn’t it?

And, and actually that’s a really brave thing to do, but you’re right, sometimes that’s when we get a bit. Emotional, angry. And then actually if we think about it and have that conversation, it’s normally pretty good. They don’t understand what they’re doing and it And it makes it for a better place for everyone.

Exactly.

Nicola: Exactly. Cause I think then that person’s gonna support a meetings conscious, their behavior, but then support you. Other women in those meetings say, Actually, should we go back to that point? Cause I think that was really

Sara: important. Yeah, it’s a bit, I mean, it’s [00:21:00] a bit like, Like when you get asked as a woman being the only woman in a room quite often who’s taken the notes and they look.

You know, Oh, I hate that.

Nicola: a client and she, she went to make, um, she’s a board member. She went to make herself a tea and she said she didn’t even realize it was happening. She ended up just offering to everyone. She said, That’s partly me, and then partly the men just allowing that to happen, and I’m like, I’m a senior director and I’m at this moment in time, I’m effectively being like a tea lady.

Like my, my dad years ago when he used visit him in his office and they literally had a lady that come around at, I think it was at 11 and three with the, the tea trolley. And I felt like that in that moment and like what I had to reflect that what’s made me led me into that. Yeah. But also the allowing it to happen rather than like, Yeah, come sit house, What are you

Sara: doing?

Yeah, I’ll make my own cup of tea. Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s really hard, isn’t it? I always, you wanna bring your own, you know, your authentic self. We talk about it all the time, but it’s true for me. I mean, I, I can’t be fake. I don’t wanna be somebody I’m [00:22:00] not, you know, it’s, it’s being authentic leader I think is very important because people quite easily and quite quickly or realize you’re not being honest or truthful.

Yeah. So it’s, it’s really the right thing to do. But something like that is naturally, I’m always sort of going, who wants to do, you know? And, but actually you’re right. Sometimes it can kind of almost devalue your position a little bit. So it’s, it’s knowing when to do it, when to do, to be overly kind and when not to be in some of those situations.

Exactly.

Nicola: Exactly. Yeah. So from within, within your role that, and what I would call like the job plus and all the brilliant stuff you’re doing around diversity and mentoring, what things are you doing? Working really well. Do you think that other organizations could learn from.

Sara: Yeah, I, I mean, so I’ll, I’ll, I’ll quickly focus.

So this, I do a lot of work in schools. It’s quite important to me. I think I’ve always been very passionate about the grassroots and how we change that. I think there’s an issue with education and the curriculum in that the role models in our curriculum are, are, um, you know, in science and technology are mostly white men.

Um, and [00:23:00] that, that’s started to change. But you don’t, I never grew up with a role model in science or tech, um, you know, Mary Curie or, or any of the NASA scientists. You know, we never knew about those. That’s changing. So I think there’s some work there. And I, and I, I go into schools quite a lot because I feel that a lot of children, especially girls, there’s my dog in the background, a lot of girls do not know that they could have a career in technology.

They think you’ve gotta be a program where you’re gonna be, you know, nerdy and sit down and you. That might be great for some, but it’s, there’s so many more roles in technology, and that’s part of what I do and, and talk about my, my career and, and how it, you can change it. And I, and I, I bring a lot of my sort of younger apprentices and grads in because I’m now too old sometimes at school.

I know. I say to everyone, I’m 26 and they look at me and go, No, you’re not . So does that work? There’s that work, but. What I think’s some had the most impact over the last few years is the partnerships that I work with inside of bt. [00:24:00] Could you go as, as you mentioned, that’s all about getting more women into tech, but it’s demystifying tech careers for girls.

Yeah. Um, so there’s, it’s an app. It’s really, it’s all, you know, it’s really straightforward as an underwriting and an over 18 app. So it’s for school children and, and, and post and. Actually at BT to be a partner with them. And, and we work and we do lots of different things in schools. Um, we do panel talks, but we’ve also done a mentoring program of bts, you know, a selected partner in that to do a mentoring program for, for women in tech who already started their career in tech, actually majority of them.

And actually in quite some of them in quite senior positions. But they want that support and help. Yeah. Um, and it’s been a real brilliant, it’s a four month program, so that’s been great. . And then on top of that, the other partnerships, and I sort of, I’ll, I’ll explain what I mean in a minute. If I bring them all together, Theto Foundation, now this is a, you know, a, a sort of a charity, uh, an organization to try and change, you know, people from different socioeconomic backgrounds and given and getting those people into senior leadership [00:25:00] positions.

Yeah. And I’ve been a mentor on their leadership program for a couple of years now. And it, I have, it’s probably the biggest education for me being part of that program. Yeah. The first year I did it, I. I was a minority. I, I know I’m in my own turning women side of things, but I never really felt too much of that.

But I was a minority and I realized what white privilege was, and it really taught me that. Yeah. And it’s, and it’s been brilliant and I’ve got so many friends and colleagues from that, um, and who still, I still meet and still learn from. And then, You know, other things have come at Women Returners Code for Girls, an amazing, amazing program.

10,000 black interns this year. We’ve started working with that and I sort of lead in that from a technology perspective. So, you know, there’s so many different little programs because they’re focused on a certain area. Yeah. And you know, we, BT or myself cannot change the world I’D nots. We’d love to. We have to bring people and partner with people and then hopefully together.

Yeah. So, you know, Now I’ve, I’ve just re recently introduced Jigo and a letter and, and, you [00:26:00] know, and all these partnerships together. So, you know, whether is just to kick it off. I’m not saying I’m doing any more than that, but it’s, it means. You know, the work that they all these organizations doing, it’s gonna have even greater Yeah, yeah.

Sort of speed, maybe speed of change in, in society and in bt, you know, and, but those partnerships we, we recruit through as well. So we, yeah, we have a sort of a real pipeline of talent and they are talented individuals on, on these programs who come into BT and. As I was saying, the pipeline’s really quite good now, you know, the last couple years it’s the retention is such a challenge.

I know. Why

Nicola: do you think it’s such a challenge at the moment? Ob, we, like you said the co, we said earlier, context of quick resignation, war, war of it was like very dramatic. Yeah.

Sara: I mean, so especially in London, right? Because you know, they, they can demand much higher salaries than some of the tech companies.

Yeah. How do you make them stick to your culture and you know, so part of it is about you. It’s gotta feel a bit like family and home. I, I sort, I’m putting my arms [00:27:00] around sort of almost, because for me, if you feel that work is like your family, you do anything for your family. Yeah. You know, you will, you, you really will.

So how do you make those people? So, but part of it is having champions, having role models, really key. I don’t think I even realized it until more recently that role models are really important for all of us. Yeah. We need to coach and mentor them and develop them on a plan and, and I think our young, you know, our younger generation, if they’ve got these, these sort of programs where they can see progression, that’s when it works.

You know, I was chatting with people that are in the government, um, and how their programs compared to sort of the private sector, and they do have that, they have, you know, really clear programs where that every year you get a specific pay rise and you might get, you know, obviously, Goals to meet and things like that.

But if you work hard and you, you know, you know, you meet your goals, you, you get pay rises, you get promotions and, and you see your career progressing. And it doesn’t have to be massive steps, does it? And [00:28:00] I don’t,

Nicola: It’s that clear takes that pressure off like, you know, the behavior of, you know, I need a bigger project.

I need to deliver something bigger so I can be seen, so I can be visible. People understand what I’m capable of, my, my skillset. I just remember not having that in my corporate career just meant I always found like I was scrabbling around kind of competing. You had to look for it bigger. Yeah. To find those visible opportunities.

Sara: Yeah. And that’s really hard when you’re in a big company because knowing what opportunities are out there, re is probably one of the biggest challenges. Yeah. But if you’ve got a path and you’ve got people who are championing you and mentoring you and helping push you, cause you. I think you need a little bit of a push sometimes.

Yeah. And especially as women, we definitely need a push sometimes because we are always a bit like, I dunno if I’m good enough for that. Don’t think I’ve got the right skills for that. So having people on our corner to push us is really important. So I think for me it’s having, you know, in the private sector, we need to be better at it.

I think we don’t do that. We shouldn’t be waiting for people to, Oh, I’ve done this for a year now what do I do [00:29:00] next? And then they leave, you know, because, There’s opportunities out there. So for me it’s that it’s, it’s a few, you know, culture, career progression. Yeah. Mentoring and networking. And those three are the things that I think we need to do better at.

Yeah. Um, because they need to feel that they are valued. They need to feel. Of, Yeah. Your corporate family. Yeah. I was listening

Nicola: to a podcast this morning and it’s Brene Brown, Dead to Lead, but then there’s also Adam Grant and Simon Sinek. Just like Mind Blown Up three, like they sound like they get on amazingly.

Oh my God. Fan girl. And there was some research done, I can’t remember the name of the guy off the top of my head. I like to cover a separate podcast around toxic cultures. Mm-hmm. and actually especially the younger generations now. Even above your salary. If a, if a, if a company has some elements of toxic culture, that is the bigger, biggest driver out, and part of that is around inclusivity, trust, ethical behavior.

It’s all of these very, um, not soft skills, but almost like [00:30:00] the intangible part of the culture. Tough things. Yes. Yeah. That actually. That is above someone getting paid a bit more. So if you can work to the opposite of that and make that inclusive culture, make that trusting culture, make it very ethical, people are gonna have more loyalty.

So they’re more likely to stay. And we, we already know we’re in telecoms, just, you know, the five big companies that once that’s on your cv, that that’s, you know, a big tick in the box. And actually we know that people tend to move around and. I’ve done a little bit of work with some smaller companies that kind of support networks, um, maybe of like a thousand employees.

And it’s like we, we know we can’t keep that person, but we’re still willing to invest cause we hope they move away, have a promotion to a bigger role and come back to us in a more senior role, but bring that extra bit of experience. Mm-hmm. , so we’re quite. We have to get past the mindset of we need to tie them in.

And if we invest now, actually they might end up leaving. We know that they’re probably gonna leave in a couple of years, but we can get the boas out of them now. Give them a great experience whilst they’re here and we hope as they get more senior and they see another role that is at that senior level, they’ll come [00:31:00] back.

Really have that really positive experience.

Sara: So yeah, that, that positive experience is really important. I was chatting to somebody yesterday who’s leaving and, and exactly that, you know, they’ve done seven years and, and actually it’s a really great thing for them to, to leave and go to a different, a totally different tech company, a different sector.

And I said, Oh, you’ll be back. And he said, Yeah, probably cuz he, you know, really great experience here, loves the company, but really wants a new challenge, wants, wants to, you know, excuse me, Potentially earn more money. Right. Because they, you know, especially in London, you can demand Yeah. But it’s, it’s not necessarily a negative thing, you know, We don’t want it to be that you don’t have any movement cuz otherwise you’re never gonna generate fresh ideas.

Yeah. And deliver what your customers want because you’ve got the same people doing the same thing every time. But yeah, it’s, it’s making sure. You still give that good experience? I think we think of people aren’t gonna, you know, only gonna give us a year or two. Well, we’re not gonna bother with them, We’re not gonna worry about their development planning and their career.

We’re just focus on the people who wanna stay and it’s totally the wrong Yeah. Mindset. We need to be focused [00:32:00] on everyone you know, and, and all the, and the talented, you know, the ones that really have that passion and that drive for your company. I talk, talk to, when I talk to sort of young, young women and I often say, choose a company that’s right for you.

You know, it’s gotta fit to your sort of moral compass as well. It’s really important values, all that kinda thing. Yeah. And, and I also say to them, and I say it to myself sometimes, is that they need you almost more than you need them. And it’s a, it’s a real interesting thing to think about because you always think they’re paying my way, designing.

But actually, if you are given more and you’re given, you are doing more and more and given extra and you’re really working hard, actually, they mean you more than that. Yeah. Than the other way around. And then, then you have a. Sort of viewpoint on it, you think Actually get the confidence up and I can be a role model and I can help others.

Absolutely.

Nicola: My most relaxed interviews where I generally got the job, I, I got, I did quite well of interviews generally, was when I, I was in a job that I really liked. I was in a company that I [00:33:00] really liked taking telecoms, the industry that I, you know, was my home for a long time. And then I got a, a big opportunity to move into something new.

And it’s like I go into you. Don’t really need it. So you kind of, I need to interview you as much as you need to interview me. And I just think that confident kind of approach of believing in myself so much that actually this needs to be right for me as well as me being right for you. Yeah. Just shifted the energy completely.

Sara: Yeah. Completely, isn’t it? And you know, Yeah, it’s really, I was speaking to it really great. I’ve got a couple new girls that started on industrial placements, but you know, I said to him, This is your year to try us out. We’re on, you know, you are, you are working hard to prove yourself. We also have to do the same.

And, and in an interview, I say to my managers, You have to. Don’t sell our team. Yeah. You know, it’s not they, It’s not just one way. Yeah. And it’s like, And they really, I’m like, Yes, . I like that. It’s complete shift in mindset,

Nicola: isn’t it? Absolutely. Yeah. It’s not just all the, you know, someone’s here as a graduate, let’s just give them the No, they [00:34:00] need a positive experience.

These are the leaders of the future. If they don’t have a good experience here, they’re gonna go somewhere

Sara: else. Yeah. And you wanna give them the confidence to thrive. I mean, they want, they need, you need to give them that opportunity to, to be their best. And that is about making sure you’ve got that safe space for them.

You know, if it’s a nice, trusting environment, supporting environment. Yeah. And it’s, everyone helps each other. Not, like you said, I think we mentioned earlier, know we champion each other, We’re not just out for ourselves. And I think that’s, yeah, I think that’s shifting in in the female landscape. You know, I think we are all a bit.

Judgemental, I think of other women. You know,

Nicola: I, I always felt like I was in competition with everyone. I, I think, again, if we go back to that lack of milestones for your career, you’re just, you’re in a, you know, you’ve gone as a, i, I went into my, one of my first roles from telecom as a product manager level, and the site, well, 40, 50 of us within a team.

So, you know, there’s a lot of competition. There’s a lot of that intensity of, you know, I want the next big opportunity. And the [00:35:00] irony was I started working on a very small product that that became a huge product because we needed a point of difference that for years I’d been teased about it, people mocking it and must be easy.

And did a lot of work with the, not only the country, but the group as well to kind of set up all the frameworks and commercials and stuff. And then eventually, We had a 10 million pound launch because it was like, we need a point of difference. Actually, there’s a lot of capability in that. There’s a lot of difference in that product, but also there’s a very capable team running it.

And then it was like, Right, let’s go. So it’s that something small became something huge in the irony of it. , It’s brilliant. Oh, who’s laughing now? Oh, let’s start with Nick’s update. Cause that’s our priority one. It’s like, Well, let me tell you what’s going on. Yeah.

Sara: It’s, it’s almost like you’re sort of really sort of smashing the hierarchy straight away.

Yeah. Because people have this, and I hate hierarchy. I tell my team all the time, we don’t have hierarchy. Yeah. I mean, there’s times when it’s needed. I understand. But there should be quite few and far between. Yeah. You know, it’s smashing that they, they mine’s better than yours, sort of attitude. Or my [00:36:00] team’s better than yours.

Rubbish, isn’t it? Cause at times they’re all gonna be, they’re all gonna be more important than others.

Nicola: Yeah. And we are running, you know, running a TA power launch. I need every part of that business to come together. So to run a launch, I need the commercial signed off, I need finance approval, I need, you know, uh, a brand and advertising campaign.

Mm-hmm. Also need customer service to know what, what they’re talking about. I need the shops to know how to sell it. Mm, So it’s, it was, I loved it because it was almost like it was everyone to get something off the ground and, and make it actually happen in time and on budget. And that was, Yeah. Oh, took me back

Sara: So, yeah. It’s so rewarding seeing something deliver. I, that’s what I’ve loved about my career is when you deliver a service and you, and you see it, you know, Kevin Bacon is, is sort of promoting it, you know, and on try, you know, the pride you have in, in seeing that. And then, you know, winning awards of best network and things you think.

Yeah. You know, there’s so many, there’s so many people in that make it to help that, but you know when it’s your team that have got [00:37:00] a big part in that. Yeah. It feels proud parents. Absolutely. But

Nicola: that’s, it goes back to what we are saying that. Telecoms and tech isn’t just like you said, your geeky programmers for some I can imagine.

So my, my husband still getting used to that is, um, he’s a dentist, but he’s very process and sci, You know, he did a physics degree with his first degree, uh, Imperial. So he is like, you know, big brain. I know. So, you know, he would’ve. Probably been amazing as like, you know, engineer or he probably would’ve been amazing as some kind of programmer, but for me it’s like tech me was commercials, marketing, seeing something come to life.

And for me it, it gave me a completely different side of it. You know, I, I knew enough tech, knew how to talk to the technical team, but I’m not technical, so Yeah. Absolutely. I think that’s part, that’s gotta be part of the message, I think, like you said to people coming in. It’s not what you think it is.

It’s not, We’re not just all sat in a room, just programming. Like there’s, there’s marketing, there’s commercials, there’s branding is a huge part of it as well. And the points of difference [00:38:00] and how do we talk to our, how do we make the customer experience is great.

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, and data analysis.

I was one of, one of my sort of girls that’s in my sort group of people that I. Make sure she comes to schools and things, Mary, and she’s, you know, she looks at user experience and she looks at data and data analysis is massive in, in, in all industries, I think. But she’ll look at, you know, what, you know, set up boxes for BT and, and broadband rooters and, you know, how are people using it time of day and, and what if we have this small issue?

How is many people is impacting and, you know, having is so interesting to see, you know, how people are using their apps versus, you know, the TV and you know, There’s so many interesting roles, like you’re saying, and it, and actually, you know, things like project managers, they’re, they’re technical project managers and juggling so many things, you know, multitask, extraordinaire.

I would say yes, absolutely. Like most women probably save

Nicola: the day, save the day for me when launches went really wrong and I’m like, right, we need to replant.

Sara: Yeah, there’s, [00:39:00] And there’s so many, isn’t there? Yeah, exactly. And you, Yeah. Being an architect or a business analyst looking at what, what is our customers wanting and how are we gonna deliver it?

Yeah. Is I think I love that sort of things as well. But you know, technology for me, I think what a career cuz you can. It changes and it challenges you and you can move and you can do and you can, Yeah. Depending on, I do think your career changes as your personal life changes and I, and I I think we should be quite open about that.

It does, yeah. And, but that’s the great thing about technology is that you can change it to fit to your personal life as over time, you know, you’re gonna big life events. And people think they shouldn’t impact your life if they do. And yeah, of course it would be silly not to. And you know, being a great leader is understanding others, going through those changes and, and being flexible and accommodating and looking where their career could go for a period of

Nicola: time.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I talked to clients about when they, when we’re looking at career strategy, for example, what chapter you’re of your life are you in? I like to call it. So, you know, is it more important to have the balance at home or [00:40:00] actually. For women that are maybe a bit older and they’re now empty.

Nest one of a better phrase. They’re like, I’ve got one or two big, big last few jobs in me before I retire. That that’s what I wanna go after. Because yeah, my children are now independent and I, I can focus back on that but have, have, not do it in a way of burning out, but doing a way that I can give it a

Sara: lot now.

Yeah. And it, it’s hard, isn’t it? Cuz it’s me. Like for me, even just thinking the next step is my children are 12 and 14, so I, I’m sort of getting a little bit, let more, they’re getting more independent, but they are boys. So different needs, isn’t it? It’s different. It’s still not that much in between. No, not that much independent, but it’s what’s they say and it’s, and it’s.

I have a, you know, I’ve only recently had a coach. It’s very interesting cause I’ve never spoken about, I’d never talk about myself and how I develop it. Just sort of work hard and Yeah. And what will be, will be. But we talk about having, being, like having a cape on and being a superhero. So, you know, you go into meetings, you might be the only women around female around the table, and they’re all.

A level above or two, you know, they’re on [00:41:00] the board and you know, you’re thinking, Oh, put your cape on and, and be yourself. You know, go in there, say hello, you know. Cause you try and fit into Yeah. What’s around the table and actually, You shouldn’t, you should be yourself and bring your personality into it.

Absolutely. Um, and then put your cape on and be yourself. Be confident. And it might be that you get out that room, take your cape off and sort of collapse thinking, what have I done ? But for that moment, you can, you, you know, you’ve bullet proof. You know, and it’s, and it’s a, and it’s been really useful for me thinking like that because it’s true as you move up Yeah.

In your, in leadership, you are put in in situations where it is quite scary and you’re at the board and you’re having to present him and not always good news. Yeah. You need that cape on sometimes to say, you know, you know what you’re talking about. You can do it and, and you know, think

Nicola: about the rest.

There’s a money mindset mentor I follow called Denise and Phil Thomas and she talks about, rather than feeling we need to be the absolute guru and we bring something [00:42:00] brand new to the world and we put all that pressure on ourselves, it’s okay to be a contributor. It’s okay. Like you said, deliver the message and also have the conversation about it.

But you don’t need to have, you know every answer to every problem. You don’t need to, or I’ve got another, a friend that moved into a very senior role in new area, and she was like, all I think for myself now, if I’m going to present, I will learn five things really well about what I’m presenting. I will make sure I’ve got my story and my message and what I need, but I’m not gonna know that I need to know the other 50 things that might come up.

It’s like, actually, this is something I’m still learning about. This is who I, this is what I can get back to you and that’s okay. Yeah. Have those phrases, Leadership,

Sara: role learning. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And have those phrases ready for when you get those questions you don’t know is, That’s a great question.

I’ll take that one away and come back to you. Can I get, you know, in those sort of things, having, being prepared for. When you don’t know Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So I think, you know, when you start in your career as a, especially as a female, I, you, you, you do get [00:43:00] questioned. I, that was the thing for me was I used to get questioned.

Do you know this, do you know this? In that kind of way. And it used to, I was, you know, I’m only, I’m only five foot, sort of, quite a short girl, sort of petite. I was, um, and I’m nervous, you know, and they, and it kind of did knock my confidence to a point. But you know what, I think it kind of made me tougher.

It made me more resilient because. I’m gonna be better than you and I made you work harder, um, and learn more. So I take, I, I use it in a positive way. I think. Well, you know, you may be mean. It may not have been right. You didn’t do it to the my male colleagues, but what it did, it made me better than you and I.

Yeah. You know, and I became a, a sort of a principal engineer before this person. I was the best thing in the world. But it has made you work harder and, and actually working hard is I. For everyone, so Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Nicola: So I think we could talk all day long. I would love to, We might have to get you back talk again, but is there a final message for our audience sake?

Cause I think we’ve covered some brilliant, brilliant stuff

Sara: there. Yeah. I think for [00:44:00] me it’s, as we’ve said a few things, but I, I mean, I think every woman needs to take away that they’re actually a role model and they probably don’t realize it. I know I didn’t. I’m starting to believe it a bit more now.

Yeah. But you all, we all are for us. Someone, you know, even if you start in your career, a role model for people around you in schools, you know, and I think it’s really important that we use that and we, and, and we actually make, use that in a positive way can all do a little bit and, and using that and, and, and that encourages others.

And I think. Us women, if we took, you know, really think about from a female perspective is we champion each other. Yeah. We’re role models for each other and, and that’s how we’re gonna make change. Absolutely.

Nicola: I love that. I love that. And I think being, thinking of yourself as a role model, you can sometimes get past that emotional reaction to something or being stuck in something.

Think. Okay, so being a role model, what do I wanna role model here? What’s the behavior I wanna show? Especially going into like, you know, new role or a bigger leadership role, it’s like what behaviors, what attitudes, what characteristics or [00:45:00] skills do I wanna really role model here? Even if I’m scared myself, I can, at least I can role model them out and then it becomes who I am

Sara: anyway.

Yeah. What were my, what was my values? You know, like I say about Duke could be kind. I talk about it a lot. Yeah, that’s me. I need to be, make sure I’m doing that. So it makes, it makes me act and behave and lead in the way that I want people to remember me by as such. You know, that’s, think of it in that way.

Absolutely.

Nicola: So if people want to follow you, they can obviously find you on LinkedIn. So just, uh, just see what you’re getting up to with your different foundations and people that you work with and yeah. Where you’re gonna go next. And then, yeah. Thank, thanks so much for your time today. That’s just been, No, I think it’s been really soon as I thought it would be.

So

Sara: thank you so much. Thank you.

Hi,

Nicola: it’s Nick here. I just wanna take a moment just to say thank you for listening when I’m sat recording the podcast in the deepest steps of coal. It’s incredible to think that it’s reaching women across the world in 30 different [00:46:00] countries, and we have thousands of downloads a month. So thank you so much for being part of that.

And being part of the audience means a world to me. But I do want to grow this audience. I would love you to help me reach more women like you. So that we can really drive positive change in the corporate world. So you can do that one of three ways. First of all, you can subscribe to the podcast. You never miss an episode.

It’s always a new episode’s always delivered straight to your inbox. You can review the podcast and leave us a rating and the more ratings we have, we also got in the podcast charts. And finally, you can just share a favorite podcast with a peer, with a colleague, or on your social media. So I would love you to do that.

Thank you for all your help, and I can’t wait for

Sara: what’s next.