Nicola  00:09

Hello, welcome to Women at the top or telecoms and tech. And I am really, really excited today. Now that we have conquered the time difference, we’re here together today. And I’ve got an amazing guest that we’ve been chatting to get this book done for a little while. And I’m really, really delighted to have her here with me today. And that is Stephanie Okamoto. I’ve got that right. I’m getting old, which is brilliant. I have practice. And just to introduce Stephanie. So her current role is she is Director of Global Learning and Development for management excellence at Microsoft, huge dream job, she’s going to be telling us all about and how she got there. But just to introduce her because I love her story of how she got to be where she is now. And I love when I interview people, just what are the chapters that brought you to where you are now. So management excellent is that absolute passion. And being an incredible manager is her purpose. And I that all those words are things that just set my heart Alight, so she’s going to be sharing more of that. So she started at Microsoft in 2000, as a software tester again, could we ask her about that quite fascinating. And over the past 22 years, just reinventing yourself many times. So from managing and developing test teams to leading management excellent programmes to the tire company and all the steps along the way. And she’s just one of these women that’s worked very hard, but also found what is her purpose and our passion in her current role within Global Learning and Development. And really, she’s done such an amazing job to redefine the role of manager at Microsoft, and land a brilliant manager expectations structure, which is model coach care. And I love some of the words within that. And I think it stands out as being something very different, not just teaching skills, but an attitude, not just what you’re doing but how you’re doing it. So she works to increase skills and capabilities and managers every single day, while ensuring every manager prioritises truly caring about each team members, human beings, driving a culture of care is her mission. And she’s here with me today. And we’ve already been discussing surnames and how people can and can’t pronounce them, and Polish ancestry and all sorts. So welcome to the podcast today. brilliant to have you here. Stephanie.

Stefani  02:18

Thank you, I’m so happy to be here. It’s I love talking about all of these topics, management excellence, and just my passion and my purpose and my story, because I think that, you know, I talked to a lot of people about one how I moved from engineering into this role, and then to just about how important leading with kindness and empathy and and being a manager who cares about the humanity and the human first is so important now more than ever, it brings me a lot of energy to talk about it. So thank you for having me. Brilliant,

Nicola  02:59

brilliant. I’m with title today. And we’re just going to be open to where it leads us. Today’s episode is all about leading with kindness and care. And I think exactly Stephanie just said, I think needed more than ever, when we’re probably more in depression in the corporate world than ever, when we’ve gone through lockdown come out the other side, we’re in a recession is really challenging times for a lot of businesses. And actually, it’s very easy to focus on the numbers focus on profitability. But actually, what what is the key point of difference that there is potential for in every company, it’s with their people. And it’s actually supporting and it’s that caring, it’s that attitude of leading with kindness, and just that shift away from that more autocratic style of leadership into much more of a human style of leadership where you’re caring about the person, but in a very true and real way, not just for the sake of the business. So welcome, Stephanie. I’m really excited to get stuck into this. So you’ve got this brilliant history. So can you just talk us through because you have gone from that, that very different start point of a software tester through to where you are now and that that brilliant, global learning and development role? So can you just take us through some of the chapters that I think your story will really inspire a lot the audience and also just give us some really big subjects to get stuck into?

04:17

Sure. I’m happy to. So like you said, I started at Microsoft in the year 2000. And I, again, started as a software tester. And during that time, there was a lot of change early on where the software testing discipline moved into more of an aesthetic role, where the software tester and the developer role kind of merged and I didn’t want to be a developer and so I just started trying starting to think about what other things was, wasn’t what was I interested in? And at the same time, I found myself really passionate about people initiative, so I found myself drawn to take Hang on people initiatives for the company. And then I started recognising that there were gaps in management styles and the things that the managers just even around me were doing at a fundamental level that I didn’t think were good fundamentals if I can say that, yeah, promising promotions, how they were treating employees. And, and so I just thought, what can I do about this myself. And so I saw a gap. And I proposed a plan to my leadership at the time and thinking, I want to create a forum where I can just bring managers together to learn from each other. And so I did that, and they become wildly successful very quickly. And it was just a very simple concept. Again, bringing managers together to learn from each other. And so that became hugely successful. And then I started thinking, what about those who are emerging managers or aspiring managers that want to become managers and and I wanted people to understand that to become a manager, or to be a manager isn’t about promotional velocity, it isn’t about you any longer. When you become a manager, it is about the amazing opportunity to help others with their career and support them through then their journey through the company from a career perspective and a professional perspective. And so I created an aspiring manager forum as well with two aspiring managers on my team who were amazing. And those became very, very, very successful as well. And so I thought, oh, my gosh, I wonder if that’s a job at Microsoft, because that’s what that felt might come. Every dad’s doing it on evenings and weekends. And I found I just loved it. And so took me about a year, I was doing a lot of research, you know, looking for keywords and job descriptions internally, and I met with a whole bunch of people across the company, I found that these roles were more in HR than anywhere else. I did not have HR background. And so I thought, oh, gosh, do I have to go get like an HR certificate? What am I gonna have to do? Because this now that I’ve seen it, this is what I want to do. Yeah, I found Global Learning and Development. And at that same exact time, they were starting this initiative around the role of the manager at Microsoft, where they were going to look into defining the role, which they had, we had never done before, and creating manager expectations, because we were, through a lot of research, realising that the manager is really one of the most important roles of the company. They’re the stewards of the culture, they are the key to employee, the employee experience. And so they were forming this team, I interviewed for the team. And at first I did not get it came down to me and one other person, and I did not get the role. And I was devastated. And I went back to my office and I literally was the blinds and I cried. And I told myself that like No, like that is your role, that if you could have created a job description for yourself, that was it. And so I told the CVP at the time, who’s now my CVP still, I said, now that I’ve seen that role, I can’t unsee it, and I want to do this work at Microsoft, like this is the company I love. And if I have to leave the company to do it, I will because I now know, this is what I was meant to do at the company, this work. And I went back and I said, I’m going to continue to show you how I am single handedly changing the culture in the organisation that I am in and making managers and engineering better. And I’m going to keep bugging you. And about four months later, they had another role and and I got that role. And so now it’s an A I know and now, but I mean it was great. It was resilient. It was I am going to give up. I am going to keep bugging you. I’m going to because once you know what you are meant to do, nothing stops you from from going for it. And I can’t tell you how incredible it feels to be able to live your passion and purpose in your work every day. And the difference that it makes for employees as well as managers. In San Diego, I

Nicola  09:42

have goosebumps listening to you because I it’s just I can feel your energy just like flying off. Yes, I get that because I get to do it as well. You know, it’s like well, why? Why can’t everyone have this? Because all we’ve done is got We’ve gone through a long process some longer than others. It’s not about the length, but we’ve gone through a real process of clarity. And we’ve tried things on and at times in our life, they fitted and they felt great. And then at some point, it wasn’t for us anymore. And then we found the next thing. And we’ve listened into that intuition of this is what I’m passionate about. This is what I’m excited about. This is what energises me. This is what I you know, I ran a VIP day for crying today. And I have to pinch myself at the end of the day, like how, how does it become my work? Because it’s it’s incredible to sit in a room with a, an amazing woman and help to see more of that. So I I resonate, but I think, I think yes, I agree grit resilience and keep pushing, but I think you’ve been through in an audit process of clarity, right? Stepping on, right, clarity now is this clarity now is this. And then almost like listening to your reaction of passion and excitement and all the energy that you bring into a room. And then following that, and not giving up on that, and not settling for actually something slightly different? Or, actually I want to do this, I want to do it in Microsoft. So again, my energy is this, it’s near, this is what I want.

11:11

Yeah. And I realised also that it took me a long time to realise it, right. And at first I was like, gosh, am I just a slow learner? It took me like, like 16 years, but I was also looking back it was every single experience that I went through through engineering and every manager that I reported to and every leader I reported up through, and every experience and observation I had, that led me to this role, I had to go through every single thing to make me realise this is what I wanted to do. And every experience that I could draw on to know that this is this is one what I wanted to do, too, I knew I could do it, I had the confidence and knowing how to do it. Based on knowing that I I’ve gone through what every other employee has gone through and dealt with from having bad managers or living through uncertainty or living through layoffs and living through, you know, fear and, and what all of that feels like. And so I just wanted to I’m a fixer, I just wanted to fix it. And I thought if I could even just one employee or one manager at a time, if I could make that environment in our culture better. I’m making a difference. And so that’s what I get to do every single day. And I have an incredible team. That helps me do it. And we are making a difference. Like it’s incredible. It’s an incredible feeling. I used to say, when I would hear people say I can’t believe I get paid to do this work. Yeah, it doesn’t feel like work. I was like, yeah, no, that doesn’t exist. That’s not true. No, I’m like the I’m one of those people that get Yeah, so it’s, it’s, it’s quite fulfilling the hours just go by so quickly. Because yeah, there’s so much I want to do.

Nicola  13:15

This podcast is produced by the podcast boutique, and podcast boutique have been absolutely invaluable for me in helping take my fuzzy headed concept, develop the plan of what it was going to be what the podcast is going to be create a launch plan that then put us in the top 10 charts on launch week. And then also they just put together the editing, they get it ready to launch. So it means each week you get to listen to a new, very well edited, put together episode. And they are the experts. And they help you to really develop your podcast so that you can have more downloads, you can reach more people and serve your audience by really creating relevant subjects for right now. So I really, really recommend them. It’s great to have someone on your side. And they’re absolute experts in this area. So you can contact them at WWE dot, the podcast boutique.com. And that’s also in the show notes. Thanks for listening. I just wanted to go back to the start of your career because it’s really interesting. You started as a software tester to kind of evolve into where you are now. I’m seeing more and more clients like this now. And I think the more senior you become, the more you look around and there’s not many women in the room you are in the room, if not one of a few. So how was that for you early on in your career?

14:43

It was difficult if I can if I can be honest with you because I was one of the only females in the room if not the only female and I don’t necessarily I didn’t necessarily look like what an engineer look like it or looks like, right. And so I was immediately, there were really no micro aggressions where people immediately thought that I was the admin or I was marketing when I walked in the room. And so respect and given a voice in the room was difficult for me to have, and I had to actually take it, like, I had to learn that if I didn’t take my seat, I was not given one. And so I had to also adopt some behaviours that were new to know not female, like, if I can be honest, and, and, and be a lot more. You know, where I had, if I had some of these, say, I actually had to interrupt others and say, No, it is my turn to speak now. And so those weren’t necessarily ways that I wanted to behave or values that match to my values. But in order to be heard and seen and actually respected. That’s what I, that’s what I had to do to survive, and also earn respect. And so I, that’s what I had to do. And then that, and it worked, right. And so back then, in that room, that’s how I earned respect as a subject matter expert, and as a lead and a manager of a of a engineering team. And so that’s how I was able to be successful, because I did have the knowledge and the understanding. And I did lead a very successful team. But it was difficult to be able to be heard and respected and a room full of people that didn’t necessarily look like me. And were the only female. So it was just not easy.

Nicola  16:53

Yeah. Yeah, obviously that a lot around. When I’m working with clients, it’s almost you can’t it’s hard to be what you can’t see. So how do you you know, if there’s a lot of men in the room, they can benchmark themselves, they can fit? Well, you know, I’m very drawn to how he’s done that. But that’s not for me, that stuff shipped So, but women, it’s almost a second guessing of was no one in the room that looks like me. And you can also think about this in respect of women of colour, you can think about it with different backgrounds and different ethnicities. And it’s kind of like if if there’s no one in the room that looks like you, you’re immediately unconscious, you’re immediately feeling blamed might be more judged. And just feeling like maybe you have to do more or have more impact or deliver more, because you’re kind of proving yourself when you said you adapted some more kind of masculine for want of better term kind of tendencies. Did you feel like you lost a little bit of who you were?

17:48

Yeah, I did. And, and I because I’m not necessarily, I try not to be a rude, a rude person, right, I like to be able to give everybody in the room, a chance or a voice to be heard. And I am not somebody that wants to cut somebody off, more come off as rude or egotistical or you know, any certain way where I may be seen as anything other than a partner, or a collaborator, or a supporter of those around me. And that’s what it felt like I was kind of having to be, and also the culture back then was where the loudest person in the room was the smartest person in the room. And, and so I was finding there was a couple of times, I had to learn the hard way where I left a room, maybe where I didn’t worry, I didn’t say something or I stayed quiet. And I regretted it. Like I was so mad at myself where I didn’t speak up, or I didn’t say something, or where I had something to say I was gonna say something and I didn’t because of fear, or I didn’t want to be seen a certain way or I didn’t want to look foolish or stupid or whatever, because I was the only female. And then the guy next to me said the exact same thing I was gonna say and everybody applauded him as being a genius. And I was like, Oh my God, I wish I should have just said it. Enough times like that, where I was like, That’s it. I’m not going to stay quiet any longer. I am not going to. I made a point to myself and a promise to myself that no longer was I going to leave the room regretting and not taking an opportunity to speak to say what I wanted to say and be heard. I was not going to do that anymore. And I live that now to that wasn’t just back then I just learned it back then. And I’ll I’ll tell you i There were quite a number of things I learned back then that I still I’m thankful for that. I adapt to today. I, if I’m in a room full of really high leaders, I learned to make sure my voice is heard. I still don’t leave a room where I am not. I don’t speak up. I don’t let my fear stop me from saying what I want to say. And so I think that’s some good things that came out of my, my early experiences. Yeah,

Nicola  20:26

absolutely. Absolutely. I think when we’re, when we’re growing so quickly, and we’re in an environment where we’ve been given an opportunity, it’s just that stretch, isn’t it? And that, even when it’s difficult, if you can take the lessons from it, that’s still going to be a really valid experience. It’s almost I know, for me, I’ve grown most at the times that are probably the most difficult in my life. Right? So it’s almost like a diamond under pressure that is formed that the pressure, it becomes a brilliant, beautiful stone. It’s like, well, why? Why are we any different? And just because it’s uncomfortable, there’s still a huge lesson from it actually, honour, honour, the the time it wasn’t comfortable, honour yourself through it by taking those lessons and growing through it and from it.

21:11

Right, I always try and look back and say, That was uncomfortable, that didn’t feel good. But that’s why I always talk about grit and resilience. And, you know, one of the things that I think you’d asked me about early is, and we can talk about later is, you know, what are the books that resonate the most with me in there, you know, Angela Duckworth, grit is like, one of my anthems and, you know, Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg. It’s like taking your seat at the table. You don’t wait, like, it’s all of those things. And, and that’s, that’s what I’ve, that’s what I learned. Because a lot of times, I think early in my career, you kind of forget, you don’t realise this might be your only opportunity. Because if you don’t, if you don’t take that opportunity, you might not get it again. You might not get that opportunity again. So don’t let fear stop you. i And I always try and tell myself Okay, stuff. Are you scared? Are you scared? Because you’re scared? Maybe flip that to be scared? Excited versus scared? Scared, right? Yeah.

Nicola  22:20

I call it scare sighted. Yeah,

22:23

yes, exactly. Okay, like, like podcasts or things? I would never have done this, you know, like, 10 years ago, because I would have been terrified of looking foolish or whatever. But now I’m like, No, I have an opportunity to talk about something I love so much. Why wouldn’t I do it? Yeah, now I’m excited about it. Right? So just take your opportunities and, and be excited about them? Don’t be afraid to to take them and run?

Nicola  22:50

Absolutely. Absolutely. In your bio, talk about reinventing yourself many times, can you just say more about what, what that meant and what you did, because I think there’s a lot of women, as they move through their career have to go through that process. And especially if you’re moving to a bigger role, or you’re moving to a new company in a new industry. And I work with clients that might be going through a change. They’re at a crossroads there. Some of them early on in their career, and they’ve taken a step up into a leader level for some of them, they’re further on in their career stepping up onto the board. And for some of them, it’s I have one last big job in me helped me find it in London, we’ve really impacts it’s kind of part of my legacy. So what did you do to kind of reinvent yourself through those different stages of your career?

23:39

Each time that I’ve looked at making a change, or knowing that it’s time for me to do something different. So from engineering when I knew that the software test and aesthet role, like okay, this isn’t for me, I need to figure something else out. At that point, I thought, Okay, at this point, I can probably I want to grow my skills, but right now in my career, I want to more learn from a really good leader and manager. So instead, I was looking across the landscape and trying to find a manager and a leader that I really respected and that I wanted to learn from and so I sought out those types of leaders and I met with them and was networking and saying, Okay, if you have any roles on your team that open up, let me know when so I tried to open my network and and meet with them often enough to that they would come and seek me out if that open roles and that’s how I did it the kind of the first time and that’s what happened and then so then it became I work moved into the technical certification kind of business, because I followed a leader that I really respected. And then I learned a whole different aspect Have a business. And so then I took that learning experience. And then I thought, okay, certification. It’s, it’s a phenomenal reach and revenue, piece of our business, I learned all about it. But that’s also not what like gets me up in the morning, right. And that’s when I learned about in the light bulb went off about this management excellence stuff that I loved so much. And then I thought, okay, and that’s where I was like, again, I need to figure out another new network. And that’s where I was starting to look for, you know, the keywords in job descriptions. And I knew age, I knew nothing about HR. And so I just, again, started meeting with anybody in HR that would talk to me, that had anything to do with this kind of work. And so, I mean, goodness, you know, organisational design, recruiting, talent management, like, I can’t even tell you all of the roles and HRBPs like, I didn’t know all of this, I thought it was just my HR line person, that was HR, I had no clue. And I learned so much. So again, it was, again, reinventing myself, was really learning more about all of these different roles that existed, and then really going deep and going, Okay, where is it that I’m most interested in and making another network for myself opening up a new network of people that would, that I could like, then tap into, and then they are also looking out for me. And that’s how I found the role in global learning and development is that work, because I didn’t even know Global Learning and Development existed, if it hadn’t been for me, going in meeting with a couple of people in HR for about a year. And it takes time. Yeah. And then I had to reinvent that myself once I got into HR, because engineering and HR are two completely different planets, if I can be, yeah, different, completely different, in a different company, working in HR. And so then, because I didn’t know anybody, I went from being kind of a known Smee, in an organisation that everybody went to, to going to an organisation where I knew nobody. And I had to start from the very beginning of establishing trust and all of it. And there were days where I was like, What have I done, it was hard. And just little by little, you, again, you build that trust with people, you know, people, I just try and do it in a very authentic human way. Like, that’s just who I am, as a person, not just as a leader and a manager. And so yeah, it’s just talking to people and being authentic and honest and saying, I don’t know this, can you help me, I promise, I won’t take a lot of your time. But I want to learn, I want to learn and I want to be great. And I want to help you be great at the same time. So yeah,

Nicola  28:07

I call it purposeful stakeholder management. So with a real intention behind it, I don’t mean an intention to just get ahead. I mean, with like your, your intention of I like you to help me if there’s any way I can help you. Yes, I that’s what I want to know. So it’s a very genuine, it’s very, it’s a really good strong intention behind it. And I think for women is almost a shame of what I when I teach and coaches for leadership programmes or through workshops, and one on one coaching is almost a sense of, but I feel like I’m manipulating people. Like, but but take away that intention. Because that’s right. Is that true? Is that real for you. And if it’s no, and you have a good intention, or I don’t want to take their time, it’s just small talk, it’s but your intention is to help them and you to have more understanding. So if they don’t have obvious ways that they see you can help them you can find them. It’s just a change in its and being purposeful about it, through knowing that it’s going to help you to find those different opportunities, make new connections, how amazing is to walk in the room and know that there’s someone there that you had a really great first conversation with, and you’ve already got exposure in the room for them as well. So it’s that shift away from it being having that perception of it’s manipulative or sleazy or I don’t know what to say, to just have a genuine human interest in someone, have an intention that you can help them or they can help you or hopefully both. And just just go in and just make the time you make the time they make the time and honour it, especially at the beginning of a role where you have the it’s encouraged that you do that use it.

29:50

Right. That’s, that’s everything. And it’s not just again, as a leader or a manager, I do the same thing like my first meeting. with people, whether it’s networking, or it’s this trying to reinvent myself, and what are the first steps as I come into a new role, or trying to build my network or leading a new team, or I’ve been leading a team forever, and it’s a one on one every single week, my first thing is, how are you as a human, tell me about what your week was, like, I want to know about you as a person. First, like, first and foremost, I, that’s how you build connection. And it’s not manipulative, at least from how I live my life, I genuinely want to know. And if that’s what the conversation is all about, the first time we meet, is getting to know each other and talking about things that we connect on. That’s how you build a foundation of trust and psychological safety no matter what. And absolutely, it’s never about, you know, at least for me, you know, bad like coming from a negative like a place of wanting to manipulate or bad case, it’s because I genuinely want to know about you, like, I could, like neglect and sit and talk with you either so much I want to know about like your wedding, tell me all about your wedding. is about it. Dogs like telling you that you’re you know that like I want to know about you as a human? Like, that’s just how we should be first and foremost. Right? Yeah. How we should lead is how we should manage it. It’s how we should be as humans and and then when you want to grow your career, or you want to make moves or, or or anything like then you actually have, you’re leading with positive intent. People see that. And they want to help you when you’re that authentic and genuine. So

Nicola  31:46

yeah, absolutely. I had many goose bumps there. I think we could talk about so many subjects for so long. Yes, yeah. But given what you do, what I would love to do, and given the title, the podcasts, leading with kindness and care, and just the model that you developed around the model, coach and care, just can you just share a little bit about what you mean by leading with kindness and care? And I think we’ve kind of literally just covered some of it in what you said, but it’d be great to kind of just hear it in your own words.

32:20

Yeah, so and in the model was, I mean, listen, I would love to say that, I that I did it. But the reality is, this was a lot of work by a lot of people. And I just am very lucky that I got to be a big part of it from the very, very beginning of when I started in this role. And it was a whole initiative that we drove around manager reimagined, just reimagining the manager at Microsoft. And again, it came with redefining the role and creating these manager expectations, Model Code care that we’re going to hold managers accountable for. And the reality is, we hadn’t had this in the past. And I was determined to make sure that there was a word like care as we created or trying to come up with what were the words going to be based in neuroscience, and how many words were there going to be in, you know, finding that three is the key number of words and all of that, but I knew that we had to have some sort of word like care. And we didn’t know like, actually what it was, what it was going to be it from the beginning. But I knew from the culture that we had come from to the culture that we wanted to be under Satya. I knew that a word like that was going to change what Microsoft was going to look like internally and in the industry. And Boyle boy has it ever, especially when COVID hit, especially through addressing racial injustice, especially in the landscape, how have we needed this culture of care? Never have we needed it more. And it has made a difference, I think, both at Microsoft but just across the industry, and how we really treat again, like I’ve said, multiple times, each person that comes into our world at work with kindness and care, and how we don’t just treat them as employees, or scorecards or project managers or where are you at so so yeah, yeah, it’s like where’s your milestones? Like first and foremost, it should be like I said, in your one on one, how are you today? How are you feeling? You know, wellness, your well being and you know, right now, with what going on in the industry, we have to make sure that our employees are, are taking care of it, because it’s there’s a lot of uncertainty right now. And there has been for, I don’t know, how many years are going on now, within three years. Yeah, it’s a lot. It’s a, it’s just a lot for all of us. And not just for our employees, but for our leaders and our managers as well. So I continually say, for for employees, managers have to care for the employees, but our leaders also have to care for our managers and what they’re going through. But having a human centric leadership style, where you’re empathetic and authentic and showing vulnerability and saying, I’m feeling the same things you are and building that trust and psychological safety from the beginning that I’ve talked about. That’s all stuff that I have really worked hard in including in our work at Microsoft, and my team really, that is our mission is to create a an environment where every employee has a and we’re still working on it, of course, but has a has a positive consistent experience with every manager that they come in contact with. And you know, there’s a lot reorg there’s a lot of change, that’s one thing you can count on at Microsoft is change. But that we’re flipping to a culture of kindness, really, and balancing that with business results, and balancing that with landing projects and everything else, right. But the reality is, these are humans that come to work. And now they want to work differently in a flexible way and really meeting people where they’re at, but you have to be as a leader. First and foremost, just caring about the whole person, not just the person who is app. So that’s my, that is my that is staffs view of the world that will be set to the world wherever I work. What I that is what that is my mission, to get every manager at Microsoft to. That’s That’s what I think that every manager at Microsoft should be doing. And so we have these new accountabilities. And so my team really creates the the skills and capabilities through solutions and resources that map to that. So managers have the resources, they need to be able to understand how to do that for their employees every day, through uncertainty, through crisis, through all of the things that managers have to live and ensure that their teams are set up for success and care.

Nicola  37:45

Yeah, but you’re giving, you’re giving them the tools to do that, and do that in a consistent way. So if you are moving to a new team and new areas still be should be those brilliant elements of consistency, which I think is in such a huge organisation. It’s really challenging that. I know for me, for example, in my startup business, my, my best ever manager that I loved working for that really pushed me yet coached me yet saw so much in me, that was a woman but also within that same organisation. My worst ever makes me shudder even now had such an awful experience was very toxic, couldn’t ever get any time there was just like, and then turn up at meeting and why haven’t updated. It’s like, you haven’t made any time. But I can’t say that. My worst that was also my worst manager was also woman. It’s not really about it being a man or a woman, but in that same organisation. Where was there any consistency? Right? So it’s just I think, especially in time that I’m a neuroscience geek, I love neuroscience. Yeah. So, you know, if the brain is looking for projection and response, because that’s safety, you’re creating consistency, even within that manager level, so that people have those same touch points so it can be recognised. So even with all the change and restructures and everything that’s going on, there’s still that consistency. So even teaching clients to if you don’t you create consistency for yourself, how do you feel good? What helps you to be a really energised and positive leader to come coming into the room coming into your workday? And it’s like, Well, why not teach me a leadership model? It’s like because that that’s not going anywhere. That doesn’t land if you are feeling frustrated, if you’re feeling annoyed, if you’re feeling really tired if you’re feeling overwhelmed. Yeah,

39:38

it’s it’s very true. And it’s I feel like as a leader, you know, that consistency is huge. And Microsoft, I’ll tell you, I can’t even count the number of managers I’ve had, right like, even just in the last seven years, I’ve probably had eight right and with each one brings different things. And it’s an important because as a manager, I’m also an employee. And I’m also a leader. So I’m all of the things and all the circles, right and so, so I’ve lived the employee experience of what that feels like. And so I’m trying to lead and in infusing all of the things in the solutions and resources that we’re doing from creating for managers, infuse what the employee experience would feel like, like, I’m trying to be very learner centric and human centric, in what we are offering. But the reality is that consistency is critical. And the positive side of it is also critical, because I haven’t experienced that. And I’m, I am determined to fix that. It’s so hard, though. But if I even want to hear from just even one employee saying, You’re the stuff you’re creating matters, I’ve seen a change in my manager, I’m like, Thank you, I can end my day to day I’ve made. Yeah, right. And we can see, we can see kind of a change and a shift in our results. And that, that brings me such joy, because that’s why we’re here. And the consistency matters, the clarity, you know, we can’t provide certainty on all things. And I know everybody, as a human being you want certainty, you’re never going to get certainty. But if you can provide as much clarity as you can, if you can bring a team together and create connection as often as possible, and just a place that people can feel, heard and listened to, and maybe laugh a little like, then that helps fill the gap where you can’t maybe provide certainty in all things, especially right now we’re in the tech industry, there’s a lot of change, a lot of layoffs, a lot of uncertainty. And so that’s what I’m trying to do like for for my team, like, I can’t promise you anything, but what I can promise you is I will share with you what I know, I will give you information when I know it, I will tell you authentically that I’m feeling the same things you are. And I’ve built into our meeting schedule, I’ve kept it there through COVID, every 30 min. 30 minutes, every single week, we meet and we don’t talk about work, we laugh about everything else. Kids, dogs. Netflix, like we talk about other stuff. And that is the meeting. nobody misses. That is the meeting, move. Everybody joins on, like that is the one we covet. Because that’s our safe place to just like, let off a little bit of steam. And yeah. Especially through uncertain times. Yeah,

Nicola  42:51

absolutely. Do you have a final message for the audience today? And I think you also had a book or two you wanted to mention as well,

42:57

yeah, my biggest thing that I learned is, don’t let anybody quiet your voice and make sure that you are working in an environment that maps to your values. At the same time as you are doing the work that is your purpose and passion. I have found that in some soul searching lately, because you need to be in an environment where you are trusted and respected and valued and heard. At the same time as you love the work that you do. And that means that you are not letting anybody dull your sparkle. That’s what I tell everybody that I meet with and some books that I love. Get present by Sara Harvey yo, is an awesome little book that touched my heart early on. It’s just a little book but I struggle with staying present and because have kids dogs, kids in sports like my mind and my head is everywhere. At an at the same time a million places in one moment. And so her book get present was huge to me early on and still is she also has another book called droppin That is incredible. And it’s about leading with deeper presence and courage. And so Sara Harvey yow, she’s a she’s a leadership coach, executive coach. She’s amazing. She’s local here. Grit by Angela Duckworth and Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg. That’s an a book I’ve read a long time ago. And then bring your human to work by Erica cash when was another one that I love. She came and spoke at Microsoft and we did a separate manager kind of a conversation with her that was incredible. And that was early on. We were creating model coach care and it’s again about being Being a human being and caring for others as humans is huge.

Nicola  45:04

Why can our audience hear more of what you’re sharing and what you’re talking about?

45:09

I have a LinkedIn profile, I think you have probably have that link.

Nicola  45:14

Put it in the show notes. Yeah. If you just click straight through, then

45:18

you’ll find a theme of articles I share and things I like. It’s mostly about leadership and kindness. And I’m hoping I will share this with everybody and anybody to listen because I, I love all of your podcasts, I will share them with everybody. I am a huge fan. And I think what you have to say, speaks to my heart. And I think that what our values are, and we have to say the world needs to hear right now in a future. So thank you so much for having me.

Nicola  45:52

So I’ve loved every minute. Thank you so much for your time. And for everyone listening on the podcast today, if you haven’t already done to hear more brilliant women, and to hear more of my voice and what I have to say, just make sure that you’re subscribing you’re reviewing, or you’re sharing with people that you think it can help so that we can reach reach more and more women and people across organisations that really need to hear our message. So if you’ve done it already, thank you. If you haven’t, go do it now. And I will see you on the next podcast. Bye. i Is Nick here. I just want to take a moment just to say thank you for listening. When I’m sat recording a podcast in the deepest depths of Cornwall, it’s incredible to think it is reaching women across the world in 30 different countries and we have 1000s of downloads a month. So thank you so much for being part of that and be part of the audience means the world to me. But I do want to grow this audience, I would love you to help me reach more women like you so that we can really drive positive change in the corporate world. So you can do that one of three ways. First of all, you can subscribe to the podcast you never miss an episode. It’s always a new episodes always delivered straight to your inbox. You can review the podcast and leave us a rating and the more ratings we have, we also got the podcast charts. And finally you can just share a favourite podcast with a peer with a colleague or on social media. So I would love you to do that. Thank you for all your help. I can’t wait for what’s next